Electroquest 30 Amp Charger difficulties - Maximum Battery Bank Size?

[nb Innisfree]

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Which is kinda the point. As an extreme example if you had a charger of only 1% of the bank capacity (and no loads) the time taken to stabilise would be zero seconds, but all of your charging would be in Bulk. 

Unfortunately this is symptomatic of Victron’s ‘Adaptive Charging’ feature. It does the exact opposite of what is required. 

Actually that was with adaptive charging disabled.  It was set for max 8hr absorption then it would go to float (26.8v) and from then on it wold take a minimum of 24hrs to stabilise. 

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Actually that was with adaptive charging disabled.  It was set for max 8hr absorption then it would go to float (26.8v) and from then on it wold take a minimum of 24hrs to stabilise. 

Ahh, okay

Probably way too short at 8hr Absorption 

[nb Innisfree]

32 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Ahh, okay

Probably way too short at 8hr Absorption 

I used to wonder how long it would take to stabilise if on permanent absorption but was a bit wary, worried they might dry out. 

[WotEver]

20 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

I used to wonder how long it would take to stabilise if on permanent absorption but was a bit wary, worried they might dry out. 

A lot less time

As to how long, that’s difficult to guess. However, if on shore-line for extended periods then it’s a lot better for the Batteries to get up there gently on float. 

ETA I have no idea why my phone occasionally capitalises Batteries 

[nb Innisfree]

11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

A lot less time

As to how long, that’s difficult to guess. However, if on shore-line for extended periods then it’s a lot better for the Batteries to get up there gently on float. 

ETA I have no idea why my phone occasionally capitalises Batteries 

Yes low and slow. Gibbo reckoned our batteries were down to 45% capacity but after several prolonged charges over a few months at a higher voltage they seemed to make a complete recovery, whether that would have happened on shorter absorption ones I have no idea.

Capitalised because Batteries are very important to boaters. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by nb Innisfree

[nb Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Yes low and slow. Gibbo reckoned our batteries were down to 45% capacity but after several prolonged charges over a few months at a higher voltage they seemed to make a complete recovery, whether that would have happened on shorter absorption ones I have no idea.

Capitalised because Batteries are very important to boaters. 

Also I couldn't get any improvement with equalisation charges, gave up after several. 

[smileypete]

9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I too find the tail current never stabilises. I've spent a whole day charging and checking every 45 mins. It's always a little bit lower each time I look.

Yeah but you're another one with knackered (sulphated) batts.

And, hate to say it but they got knackered largely because you were NOT monitoring tail current, but relying on some shiny box that was telling fibs.

 

[MtB]

On 31/10/2017 at 10:26, smileypete said:

some shiny box that was telling fibs.

 

Oh yeah, the SmartGauge!

But more seriously, why would a half-sulphated battery three months old behave differently from a battery half the capacity in the first place? 

[smileypete]

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh yeah, the SmartGauge!

But more seriously, why would a half-sulphated battery three months old behave differently from a battery half the capacity in the first place? 

I think the main takeaway there is to carefully check any newly supplied batts where possible. Terminal voltage, SG check, acid levels (note carefully for future), discharge check, the more the better.

If this all sounds a bit onerous, then I'd have to say the 24/365 provision of decent amounts of guaranteed off grid power, from batts instead of a spinning engine, is just not a "no brainer" unfortunately, it needs "something"...

Having said that, for 95% of boaters who don't need that, their interests would best be probably best be served by getting decent brand leisure batts.

(Not saying that life will be perfect for that 95%, but that the above brief advice can't really be improved in any way - except to say if possible, get the batts from a decent supplier, baby them initially, then monitor carefully for any drop in performance...)

Edited October 31, 2017 by smileypete

[smileypete]

11 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

Yes, because I initially thought they were the older type AGMs I charged at 14.2v, realising they were later type I increased to 14.4-6v, that together with several long raised absorption charges recovered them, they lasted another few years. 

Didn't have the bottle to go to 14.8v even though Multicell recommended that. 

Is that the manufacturers recommended charge voltage for your batts?

45 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Also I couldn't get any improvement with equalisation charges, gave up after several. 

What was the manufacturers recommended 'EQ voltage' if any? Were you using that voltage?

Edited October 31, 2017 by smileypete

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

But more seriously, why would a half-sulphated battery three months old behave differently from a battery half the capacity in the first place? 

The charge and discharge curves are completely different. That’s why Gibbo always said that all bets were off with SmartGauge and Batteries at less than 50% remaining capacity. It simply couldn’t accurately track them.

As to WHY the curves are different, that’s down to the black magic that goes on inside a lead-acid battery

Oh look, it capitalised Batteries again. It must think they’re awfully important. 

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

Also I couldn't get any improvement with equalisation charges, gave up after several. 

Were you using the recommended voltage to equalise?

[smileypete]

Echo?

Heeelloooooooo!

[MtB]

On 31/10/2017 at 12:05, smileypete said:

Echo?

Heeelloooooooo!

 

Curiously, Mr Innisfree last logged in on 21 Oct according to his profile, yet his last post on here was a little over two hours ago. 

Another 'site improvement' by InVision perhaps?

[WotEver]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Curiously, Mr Innisfree last logged in on 21 Oct according to his profile, yet his last post on here was a little over two hours ago. 

Another 'site improvement' by InVision perhaps?

No, he’s signing in invisibly. It’s an option. Obviously his posts won’t be invisible though

[smileypete]

19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Curiously, Mr Innisfree last logged in on 21 Oct according to his profile, yet his last post on here was a little over two hours ago. 

Another 'site improvement' by InVision perhaps?

No, I meant Tony/Wotever asked exactly the same question as I did an hour before the post right above. See post 60/61.

Edited October 31, 2017 by smileypete

[WotEver]

Yeah, I was responding as I read. I saw your question afterwards but saw no harm in the question being asked twice. 

[cuthound]

35 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Curiously, Mr Innisfree last logged in on 21 Oct according to his profile, yet his last post on here was a little over two hours ago. 

Another 'site improvement' by InVision perhaps?

Perhaps he's a Time Lord? 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Curiously, Mr Innisfree last logged in on 21 Oct according to his profile, yet his last post on here was a little over two hours ago. 

Another 'site improvement' by InVision perhaps?

See the bottom left button?

[nb Innisfree]

6 hours ago, smileypete said:

Is that the manufacturers recommended charge voltage for your batts?

What was the manufacturers recommended 'EQ voltage' if any? Were you using that voltage?

No idea, just used Victron EQ mode, 16v? (32v in my case) can't remember, long time ago now. Multicell the suppliers said use 14.8v normal charge to recover them. 

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Curiously, Mr Innisfree last logged in on 21 Oct according to his profile, yet his last post on here was a little over two hours ago. 

Another 'site improvement' by InVision perhaps?

I'm the invisible man. 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

Multicell the suppliers said use 14.8v normal charge to recover them. 

Yes, Tony B had a falling out with them over this. They sell these batteries for boaters then state “charge at 14.8V”. How?

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, nb Innisfree said:

No idea, just used Victron EQ mode, 16v? (32v in my case) can't remember, long time ago now. Multicell the suppliers said use 14.8v normal charge to recover them.

Ah, OK, so it sounds like Multicell gave good advice, it just took a loooong time to recover capacity.

ISTR reading somewhere that such charges are often known as 'passive equalization', some googling brought up:

http://www.theequalizer-bacs.com/files/117265231.pdf

So where the cells are highly imbalanced, the relatively low gassing rate means they take far longer to even out.

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes, Tony B had a falling out with them over this. They sell these batteries for boaters then state “charge at 14.8V”. How?

Seems eminently sensible to me, better than trying to pretend they can be charged at 14.4V, which some suppliers seem to do.

It's up to the boater to check suitability, eg a 2hp outboard can't push a narrowboat against a strong Thames stream, is it therefore 'not for boaters'?

That marine chargers have been sold with different voltage settings for many years suggests there's no standard charging voltage for batteries on boats, not sure why Tony thinks there should be otherwise...

Edited October 31, 2017 by smileypete

[system 4-50]

I would like to emphasize for anybody just browsing this thread that to use an SG effectively it is essential to read the supplied installation manual thoroughly from cover to cover. It is very detailed in its description of what it can and can't do and when.

[WotEver]

28 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Seems eminently sensible to me, better than trying to pretend they can be charged at 14.4V, which some suppliers seem to do.

It's up to the boater to check suitability, eg a 2hp outboard can't push a narrowboat against a strong Thames stream, is it therefore 'not for boaters'?

That marine chargers have been sold with different voltage settings for many years suggests there's no standard charging voltage for batteries on boats, not sure why Tony thinks there should be otherwise...

Which alternators charge at 14.8V then?

How many marine chargers charge at 14.8V?

If you buy those Multicell Batteries you will probably have to replace your existing charger and will also have to invest in an alternator controller. So doubling the cost of the Batteries.

Do you really believe that the average boater will appreciate those facts when looking at a ‘better-than-el-cheapo’ battery?

Just now, system 4-50 said:

I would like to emphasize for anybody just browsing this thread that to use an SG effectively it is essential to read the supplied installation manual thoroughly from cover to cover. It is very detailed in its description of what it can and can't do and when.

Indeed

Everything that’s been said here (plus a lot more) is all in the extensive manual. 

[smileypete]

 

18 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Which alternators charge at 14.8V then?

How many marine chargers charge at 14.8V?

Lord knows! Do I want to spend my time finding out? I think not!

My latest take is that 95% of boaters would be best off with decent brand leisure batts (aka reasonable 'el cheapos'). Why? Because they're not terribly interested in batts, and I can't say I blame them.

The other 5% who have do a genuine long term interest probably already know what batts suit them best.

So should people without a genuine interest in batts buy Trojans or AGMs? No and no, in my mind. A third way might be to employ a marine electrical specialist to use their expertise to make the best choices.

Sure there are people who want oodles of off grid inverter power 24/365 but aren't interested in it that much, or spending on someone who does. I think there's just not an easy answer there...

Am I being a bit harsh? Probably. But if someone's got a better answer then I'm all ears.

Edited October 31, 2017 by smileypete

[GUMPY]

Many alternators can charge at higher voltages, its just a regulator change, Cargo do both 14.7 and adjustable regulators (13.8-15v)

On mine its a trim pot to adjust voltage.........