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Canal & River Trust publishes winter moorings information

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On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 16:37, johnnie1uk said:

Ive replied "If the unallocated visitor mooring for winter mooring is full and the adjacent allocated winter moorings have obviously vacant space for mooring, is it possible to use these moorings as a 14 day mooring?"

awaiting a reply from C&RT

The Reply

Many thanks for your enquiry.

I'm afraid that this will not be permitted.

To moor on the designated winter mooring space, you will need to purchase a winter mooring permit.

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.


 

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2 minutes ago, johnnie1uk said:

 

The Reply

Many thanks for your enquiry.

I'm afraid that this will not be permitted.

To moor on the designated winter mooring space, you will need to purchase a winter mooring permit.

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.


 

This doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm sure in previous years on visitor moorings if the winter moorings were not taken they could be used as a 14 day mooring.

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35 minutes ago, Tuscan said:

This doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm sure in previous years on visitor moorings if the winter moorings were not taken they could be used as a 14 day mooring.

That is what i thought also....

 

Found it from last years docs..

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/29511-2016-17-winter-mooring-frequently-asked-questions.pdf

I don’t have a winter mooring. Will I be able to moor at a winter mooring site if there is space?

If there is available space at a winter mooring site, visitors may use the mooring. While our winter mooring signage reads that sites are ‘permit holder priority’, we are taking a flexible approach and will allow visitors to moor there for the standard time period if there are spaces on the sites. If a permitholder arrives at the site, they will have priority, and those not in possession of a winter mooring permit must be prepared to move off the site right away.

 

Edited by Dave Payne

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Just found this on Q & A - "I don’t have a winter mooring. Will I be able to moor at a winter mooring site if there is space?  If there is available space at a winter mooring site, visitors may use the mooring. While our winter mooring signage reads that sites are ‘permit holder priority’, we are taking a flexible approach and will allow visitors to moor there for the standard time period if there are spaces on the sites. If a permit holder arrives at the site, they will have priority, and those not in possession of a winter mooring permit must be prepared to move off the site right away. "

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55 minutes ago, johnnie1uk said:

 

The Reply

Many thanks for your enquiry.

I'm afraid that this will not be permitted.

To moor on the designated winter mooring space, you will need to purchase a winter mooring permit.

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.


 

 

16 minutes ago, Dave Payne said:

That is what i thought also....

 

Found it from last years docs..

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/29511-2016-17-winter-mooring-frequently-asked-questions.pdf

I don’t have a winter mooring. Will I be able to moor at a winter mooring site if there is space?

If there is available space at a winter mooring site, visitors may use the mooring. While our winter mooring signage reads that sites are ‘permit holder priority’, we are taking a flexible approach and will allow visitors to moor there for the standard time period if there are spaces on the sites. If a permitholder arrives at the site, they will have priority, and those not in possession of a winter mooring permit must be prepared to move off the site right away.

 

Re-arrange into a well know saying :

Their - Elbow - Arse - from - know - don't

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52 minutes ago, Tuscan said:

Just found this on Q & A - "I don’t have a winter mooring. Will I be able to moor at a winter mooring site if there is space?  If there is available space at a winter mooring site, visitors may use the mooring. While our winter mooring signage reads that sites are ‘permit holder priority’, we are taking a flexible approach and will allow visitors to moor there for the standard time period if there are spaces on the sites. If a permit holder arrives at the site, they will have priority, and those not in possession of a winter mooring permit must be prepared to move off the site right away. "

I'm beginning to think I'm invisible.  I already quoted this back in Post #22, and still the argument went on.  Alan's comment about arses and elbows is right, though.

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1 hour ago, Tuscan said:

This doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm sure in previous years on visitor moorings if the winter moorings were not taken they could be used as a 14 day mooring.

It also conflicts with the advice I've seen from CRT this year.

9 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

I'm beginning to think I'm invisible.  I already quoted this back in Post #22, and still the argument went on.  Alan's comment about arses and elbows is right, though.

I can see you Mac!

1 hour ago, johnnie1uk said:

 

The Reply

Many thanks for your enquiry.

I'm afraid that this will not be permitted.

To moor on the designated winter mooring space, you will need to purchase a winter mooring permit.

Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require any further assistance.


 

I would reply to them and direct them here: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/31571-winter-mooring-faq.pdf

The bottom of page 5 seems to say the exact opposite to your response from them.

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On 9/24/2017 at 18:37, matty40s said:

They tried this with the roving winter permits a couple of years ago, it was a financial and boating success..

However, some very clever people from the Bargeenontravellingclub decided to challenge it's legality so they were dropped. 

Do you have good evidence that it was the "Bargeenontravellingclub" that was responsible for roving winter permits being abandoned?

I'm not convinced.

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On 24/09/2017 at 18:37, matty40s said:

They tried this with the roving winter permits a couple of years ago, it was a financial and boating success..

However, some very clever people from the Bargeenontravellingclub decided to challenge it's legality so they were dropped. 

Yep finally found a system that could of worked I was tempted to take one out a few years ago only to be told they were not doing it anymore, CRT lost some income and I couldn't use a system that would of worked for me.

The lets challenge anything brigade cus we can seem to of won a battle and lost a war. So thanks for battling for my 'rights' much appreciated:glare:

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On 27/09/2017 at 12:18, alan_fincher said:

Do you have good evidence that it was the "Bargeenontravellingclub" that was responsible for roving winter permits being abandoned?

I'm not convinced.

You have a good point I've just been guilty, in my previous post, of accepting something on face value without doing any research a blatent case of hearsayitis. I actualy don't know why it was dropped but just heard that it had been challenged legally and therefor had been dropped. Cant find any details anywhere on what actually happened, anyone got any pointers.

Personally I would like to see the Roving Winter moorings brought back, gives an option that would work for me.

ETA

Just found this PDF from NABO

http://nabo.org.uk/files/nabo-news/nn-2014/2.pdf

My understanding from the article in the issue above is that NABO were having legal arguments in general about Roving permits, not winter roving permits. It may be that the Winter Roving permits may have been dropped as a consequence of arguments in the broader legal challenge. Am I right in this assumption? or am I completely wrong? Seeking enlightenment would be interested to know.

Edited by reg
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1 hour ago, reg said:

You have a good point I've just been guilty, in my previous post, of accepting something on face value without doing any research a blatent case of hearsayitis. I actualy don't know why it was dropped but just heard that it had been challenged legally and therefor had been dropped. Cant find any details anywhere on what actually happened, anyone got any pointers.

Personally I would like to see the Roving Winter moorings brought back, gives an option that would work for me.

ETA

Just found this PDF from NABO

http://nabo.org.uk/files/nabo-news/nn-2014/2.pdf

My understanding from the article in the issue above is that NABO were having legal arguments in general about Roving permits, not winter roving permits. It may be that the Winter Roving permits may have been dropped as a consequence of arguments in the broader legal challenge. Am I right in this assumption? or am I completely wrong? Seeking enlightenment would be interested to know.

In all honesty I'm not sure, because it all seemed fairly murky business when I tried to enquire into it.

I am aware some challenged the legality of roving permits, (whether winter ones, or the proposed local ones to be piloted at Cowley / Uxbridge), and am aware that "legal reasons" was one of the cited reasons winter ones only survived a short while before CRT dropped them.  The article you have posted by Mark Tizzard clearly supports that view, although as you say it is not specifically about Winter permits.

My challenge in this thread was actually did the NBTA force this, (which I assume was Matty's assertion).  In my view it seems unlikely to me that CRT would have placed huge credence on anything coming from the NBTA, because in my experience they rarely do!  If NABO were also briefing against such arrangements, I would expect CRT to give them more credence that NBTA, frankly.  NBTA claim many things, but much of what they claim is demonstrably untrue, (to be clear, I'm referring to their published comment generally, rather than on this specific issue).

I have heard plenty to suggest that "legal reasons" was probably to some extent a smokescreen for dropping winter roving permits.  There were clearly issues with some local councils not liking the idea of large numbers of live-aboard boats mooring up in their towns for much of the  winter, and I suspect CRT may have capitulated to such pressures, (but I have no firm evidence to support it).  However there seems to me to be a considerable clue in the fact CRT have been reluctant to make fixed location visitor moorings in places that proved popular for the duration of the roving permit.  There is adequate space, people want to be there, yet nothing has been provided - read into that what you will.

Personally I think it was a very sad day when they were discontinued.  It made life easier for many people.  It brought a very useful income stream to CRT, way beyond any amount they will ever collect from their fixed location offering.  It kept boats on the tow-path in areas that in future it will not be possible for people to winter for more than 2 weeks.  Talk to people out walking on canal banks in towns, and they will tell you they like to see boats there, not long stretches bereft of them.

I was always disappointed in NABOs opposition to proposals for Roving Mooring Permits, and this probably featured amongst my several reasons for resigning my NABO membership, after I had supported them for several years.  I struggle with the concept that a roving permit is illegal, but that a winter permit at a fixed location is not, yet NABO does not yet seem to have tried with the same vigour to persuade CRT to kill off the latter, (though I admit that no longer being a member, I no longer have any idea what their latest thought or actions are in such matters).

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http://nabo.org.uk/index.php/reference/bulletins/listid-29/mailid-47-bul-aug-15?tmpl=component

From the above

"... Subsequently CRT have published confirmation that the roving winter moorings were dropped as a result of legal advice they have obtained. NABO made CRT aware of its legal advice at the time of the suggested roving mooring permits in the SE presumably CRTs own legal advice is now similar.. "

It would seem from the above that CRT published the fact that" the roving winter moorings were dropped as a result of legal advice" but I can't find where and also it may be they didn't publish the actual legal reasons so I still don't know why. Intriguing. 

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Bit more clarity from this, slightly biased, piece

http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/how-much-has-sally-ash-cost-boaters/

"Roving Mooring Permits its were first proposed in 2004 following the withdrawal of the Lock Miles rule. Ten years later Sally Ash was forced to admit that adverse legal advice provided in February this year meant that Roving Mooring Permits could not be offered in one area without offering them to every boater on the system, and so the schemes under development in Uxbridge and Gloucester were abandoned"

So it would seem that because they could not be offered in one area without offering them in all areas then it follows that they could not be offered in one season and not all seasons? I put that as a question to myself. 

It may be that an argument could be made that they could be brought in for the winter season as many other initiatives, including government ones, are seasonal. 

Eta

Bit more on the reasons why here

http://kanda.boatingcommunity.org.uk/why-roving-mooring-permits-are-unlawful/

So a valid argument, which I now recognise and retract my previous posting statement, against  a detrimental plan would seem to of had a knock on effect on what could of been, in my opinion,  a decent roving winter moorings plan. Seems like consequential effects kicked in. 

Edited by reg

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On 9/27/2017 at 10:24, Dave Payne said:

That is what i thought also....

 

Found it from last years docs..

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/29511-2016-17-winter-mooring-frequently-asked-questions.pdf

I don’t have a winter mooring. Will I be able to moor at a winter mooring site if there is space?

If there is available space at a winter mooring site, visitors may use the mooring. While our winter mooring signage reads that sites are ‘permit holder priority’, we are taking a flexible approach and will allow visitors to moor there for the standard time period if there are spaces on the sites. If a permitholder arrives at the site, they will have priority, and those not in possession of a winter mooring permit must be prepared to move off the site right away.

 

 

This is of course, totally impractical.

When I arrived at my wither mooring site last year the site wall full to the brim and none of the boats without a winter mooring permit were occupied. I was not about to try to move a randomly picked one 300 yds up past a load of legitimate winter mooring boats onto the general towpath. And nor would CRT when I called them about it. They more or less said 'tough'. But they agreed I could stay on the general towpath muddy bit for the period of my WM licence, which suited me fine as it happened as that bit was rather nicer than the VMs given over to WM section.

On a more general note, I think VMs should be on the general towpath only. Why CRT think CCers don't need VMs in winter is beyond me. This is the time we need proper VMs the most.

Edited by Mike the Boilerman

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14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is of course, totally impractical.

When I arrived at my wither mooring site last year the site wall full to the brim and none of the boats without a winter mooring permit were occupied. I was not about to try to move a randomly picked one 300 yds up past a load of legitimate winter mooring boats onto the general towpath. And nor would CRT when I called them about it. They more or less said 'tough'. But they agreed I could stay on the general towpath muddy bit for the period of my WM licence, which suited me fine as it happened as that bit was rather nicer than the VMs given over to WM section.

On a more general note, I think VMs should be on the general towpath only. Why CRT think CCers don't need VMs in winter is beyond me. This is the time we need proper VMs the most.

How did you know which ones didn't have a winter mooring permit, since you don't have to display it?   But I certainly agree with the rest - I wouldn't like to have to evict someone as CRT suggest you should do (see my earlier post).  Just inviting trouble.

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