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It would be very helpful for me (and for our signwriter) to have a bit of a discussion about BW Livery in the run up to applying it to Python. 

I found it very useful to study a few of the boats at Braunston last weekend. I am looking at what I believe is referred to by some as the 1990's BW "Heritage" livery and as the cabin on Python is not traditional it cannot follow chapter and verse of the official format but we have enough photos of Python taken with this livery on to understand how it was applied to her. 

What I want to be sure of is the details of letter sizing and the colours used for the shading. 

I took a handful of photos which will not show the actual size but several of the people I spoke to who's advice I trust suggested which of the boats was best to refer to as correct and this was spoken very highly of. This is picture no 1

19399801_10155329579969070_1413761974852

I have always thought this looks absolutely beautiful too but it is very well polished and the hard edges of the writing and going smooth and it is wearing a lovely "worn in" look rather than the sharp edges of the one above Picture no 2 

19437255_10155329581244070_2636742758084

One more, the think that struck me with this one is that the green looks completely wrong - in fact it looks almost turquiose Picture number 3

19260338_10155329577979070_8137721008792

 

One more that I believe to be "correct" is this one. Again it has the lovely lived in look and being on a wooden planked cabin it wears the lines from the movement in the wood really well. Personally I loved to see this as it's the heritage of the boat and did not look too perfect. Picture number 4 

19430029_10155329585309070_4497409997837

I know some of you will be able to identify which boats these photos are of and so please can I ask that any comments are kept as constructive criticism and even if you do know which boat the picture is of please refer to them as 1, 2, 3 or 4. I was very impressed at how helpful people were including one suggesting I did not photograph his sign writing as the letters were the incorrect size! The reason for this thread is simply so I can make sure I have the correct details for our sign writer.

Thank you in advance 

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I thought I sent you all the details you need for this? Did you not get them? Irrespective of the cabin shape line widths and layout remain the same unless it was docked at Bradley who had their own version!

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1 minute ago, Laurence Hogg said:

I thought I sent you all the details you need for this? Did you not get them? Irrespective of the cabin shape line widths and layout remain the same unless it was docked at Bradley who had their own version!

Yes thank you Laurence,

I have the very useful information you gave me. What I do not know is how those sizes and colours translate into what I was looking at when I was at Braunston ( didn't get a tape measure out - I was enjoying looking at the boats and talking to their owners far too much

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Signwriting is a very personal art, though when done for a company does need to be uniform in application. That there are some differences from yard to yard will, I would have thought, be dictated by the abilities and demands of a given yard. Nowadays we have owners and signwriters attempting to achieve some sort of 'perfection', but in truth near enough is right enough. Though some do produce things which simply don't look quite right. There seem to be pigmentation problems in the second example from 'Cheshire Rose', and the turquoise is a bit of a shocker in the next. Some letters can appear too spindly, while others too fat.

Nick Hayden did TYCHO around '08 (the licence gives me that - couldn't remember offhand!), as he admitted never having done a BW logo before I think he did very well indeed. The only mistake I made was not giving him the detail that the fleet number should have been an inch smaller that the rest. It came out the same size and does look a bit 'strong'.

The first image is from stripping paint to discover what lay beneath. These are letters from 'Britain's Waterways' done sometime in the seventies I guess, and show a touch of an earlier yellow beneath.

The others are Nick working in the wet dock at Harefield, and the overall result. Full and balanced.

{ETA: A back breaking job - and the pound was off a bit too.]

 

 

050 PICT0729 (Medium).JPG

146  (Medium).JPG

150  (Medium).JPG

152  (Medium).JPG

153  (Medium).JPG

Edited by Derek R.
To add text

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In this Black & White image- Python is seen at Banbury at the Co-op Wharf discharging Timber in 1953- did the "F" stand for Fellows, Morton & Clayton?

47640.jpg

Edited by Heartland

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This may be controversial, but as PYTHON has the 'space invader' cabin similar to SICKLE had in its last years as a maintenance boat, perhaps this just about visible logo should be adopted for PYTHON?

 

005 Sickle with 'oppa 1 cropped.jpg

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5 hours ago, Heartland said:

In this Black & White image- Python is seen at Banbury at the Co-op Wharf discharging Timber in 1953- did the "F" stand for Fellows, Morton & Clayton?

47640.jpg

249 was her fleet number so I would suggest F stands for fleet (unless anyone knows otherwise?)

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7 hours ago, Derek R. said:

Signwriting is a very personal art, though when done for a company does need to be uniform in application. That there are some differences from yard to yard will, I would have thought, be dictated by the abilities and demands of a given yard. Nowadays we have owners and signwriters attempting to achieve some sort of 'perfection', but in truth near enough is right enough.

Yes I agree - that was exactly what I found so enlightening about looking closely at the different boats at Braunston. I could see there was the work of different people displayed and it became obvious to me that each has their own style and (apart from colour) I could not have said any of them was "wrong" I found them all very pleasing to the eye. I love your words "near enough is right enough." That sums it up to me - so long as we try our best to ensure it is as right as we can make it then it will be right enough

 

Though some do produce things which simply don't look quite right. There seem to be pigmentation problems in the second example from 'Cheshire Rose', and the turquoise is a bit of a shocker in the next. Some letters can appear too spindly, while others too fat.

In fairness the spindly v fat question could be the camera angle. I took them all with a fairly long lens and it can throw the perspective a bit 

Nick Hayden did TYCHO around '08 (the licence gives me that - couldn't remember offhand!), as he admitted never having done a BW logo before I think he did very well indeed. The only mistake I made was not giving him the detail that the fleet number should have been an inch smaller that the rest. It came out the same size and does look a bit 'strong'.

The first image is from stripping paint to discover what lay beneath. These are letters from 'Britain's Waterways' done sometime in the seventies I guess, and show a touch of an earlier yellow beneath.

The others are Nick working in the wet dock at Harefield, and the overall result. Full and balanced.

{ETA: A back breaking job - and the pound was off a bit too.]

 

 

050 PICT0729 (Medium).JPG

 

Wow! look how green that shading is! 

153  (Medium).JPG

Thanks a million for that Derek. That has been very helpful indeed. 

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20 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

249 was her fleet number so I would suggest F stands for fleet (unless anyone knows otherwise?)

From what I understand, the GU boats kept their existing fleet number upon nationalisation so FMC boats had a F added to their BW fleet number to avoid confusion.

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5 hours ago, Derek R. said:

This may be controversial, but as PYTHON has the 'space invader' cabin similar to SICKLE had in its last years as a maintenance boat, perhaps this just about visible logo should be adopted for PYTHON?

 

005 Sickle with 'oppa 1 cropped.jpg

Python used to have the pressed alumium sign with her name on. Laurence Hog gave me photos of her in the jade green late 80's early 90's with it on. Photos of her covered in pigeon poo in Adelaide Dock when Chesterfield Canal Trust were considering acquiring her show one of them bent in her hold. I have never found out what happened to that sign which is a great shame. 

1374184_622864064403709_1707559954_n.jpg

We had a choice of three liveries that Python "wore" with her current cabin configuration.  The pale blue and white from the 80's, the green shown above and a repaet of what she was before her new bottom:

35002_548966998460083_401005408_n.jpg?oh

 

We do have magnetic signs we put on when we are working though:

14713812_1200591106630999_49265138863568

 

The green was the one the team liked least :) 

1 minute ago, IanM said:

From what I understand, the GU boats kept their existing fleet number upon nationalisation so FMC boats had a F added to their BW fleet number to avoid confusion.

That would make sense

There is some discussion whether she ought to adopt a CCT fleet number of 5 in place of 249. It seems incredible that is all the CCT boats had a fleet number we would now be up to 8½!

I think I want to keep 249! 

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Thanks CR. When I mentioned the logo as on SICKLE, I meant the white panel with the blue wavy line on - not the nameplate! It would fit nicely just ahead of the engine room air grill, not a logo that many would choose, but it seems to fit the maintenance boat period. I agree the green was pretty dire as an all over colour, especially that shade. Reminds me of Matty's all over yellow - probably had a job lot of JCB paint some time in the past!!

ETA: That's a lovely shot of unloading at Banbury Heartland.

Edited by Derek R.
To add text

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Another question - can anyone help please?

19420339_10155329592289070_5318944360001

 

Does anyone know the size of the letters used on the cloths when applied like this? 

We believe that Python already has her own special version of the wavy line! For a long time the Chesterfield Canal Trust "Pythoneers" were ridiculed for trying to pretty her up by putting a squiggle on her bow: 

17799162_1374337089256399_25369655263567

But she had the squiggle added when she was in BW ownership. 

1546022_663999853623463_1944386209_n.jpg

Talking to current CRT employees who used to crew Python on The Regents Canal I asked if they knew why she had a squiggle on her bow when she was the only BW boat known to have one. It was suggested that it was applied as a reference to the yellow wavy lines in the old BW logo as seen on this photo  belonging to Mr Fincher of this parish

DSCF4209.jpg

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Cheshire-rose's statement for example 2, that it looks very "worn in" is very true. It is now 17years old and a testament to using good profession paints and sign writers.

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3 minutes ago, Mick Poyser said:

Cheshire-rose's statement for example 2, that it looks very "worn in" is very true. It is now 17years old and a testament to using good profession paints and sign writers.

Wow! that really is a testament to a good job and an owner that looks after it!

17 years might also offer some suggestion regarding the pigment situation that Derek mentioned, that is a lot of sunlight to fade those colours 

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55 minutes ago, cheshire~rose said:

Another question - can anyone help please?

19420339_10155329592289070_5318944360001

 

Does anyone know the size of the letters used on the cloths when applied like this? 

We believe that Python already has her own special version of the wavy line! For a long time the Chesterfield Canal Trust "Pythoneers" were ridiculed for trying to pretty her up by putting a squiggle on her bow: 

17799162_1374337089256399_25369655263567

But she had the squiggle added when she was in BW ownership. 

1546022_663999853623463_1944386209_n.jpg

Talking to current CRT employees who used to crew Python on The Regents Canal I asked if they knew why she had a squiggle on her bow when she was the only BW boat known to have one. It was suggested that it was applied as a reference to the yellow wavy lines in the old BW logo as seen on this photo  belonging to Mr Fincher of this parish

DSCF4209.jpg

Regarding the top cloth lettering, I have a stencil made some years ago from a genuine Bulls Bridge topcloth (no longer in existence) for this (also the boat number (183) for the middle and date for the corner), I can measure the size if you like in the next day or two. 

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3 minutes ago, archie57 said:

Regarding the top cloth lettering, I have a stencil made some years ago from a genuine Bulls Bridge topcloth (no longer in existence) for this (also the boat number (183) for the middle and date for the corner), I can measure the size if you like in the next day or two. 

Thank you very much indeed

That would be an enormous help. 

If I can get the measurements to one of our volunteers over the weekend he can make up a screen for us 

Python is a Bulls Bridge boat 

 

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Sorry folks

 

I have (yet another) question!

19466484_10155329597509070_8990179863010

Is there a name given to the bit of canvas (or modern alternative) that covers the cratch board on a boat?

Some boats have it covered and others don't Is it a case of personal preference or historically were certain boats or fleets more likely to have them than others?

19243248_10155329566079070_3243025956134

 

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It's called a deckcloth. It covers the deckboard and the shape is more complicated than triangular as it is secured by strings back to the false cratch.

Edited by davidg

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2 minutes ago, davidg said:

It's called a deckcloth. It covers the deckboard and the shape is more complicated than triangular as it is secured by strings back to the false cratch.

Thank you.

Of course, I remember now it is a deckboard not a cratch board!

For our purpose a triangle will suit because the set up is not traditional (in involves turnbuttons - shock horror! The boatmen will be turning in their graves!)

;)

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 18:52, archie57 said:

Regarding the top cloth lettering, I have a stencil made some years ago from a genuine Bulls Bridge topcloth (no longer in existence) for this (also the boat number (183) for the middle and date for the corner), I can measure the size if you like in the next day or two. 

The top cloth lettering is 5 3/4" tall, standing on an arc of 31 1/2".  The boat number is 4", and the D and 4 63 across the corner are 3 inches. I presume the "D" is the date the cloth was "dressed". It follows that it must have been one of the last from Bulls Bridge, I had some more new/unused top cloths originally from Bulls Bridge, they hadn't been lettered and I passed them on to Ellesmere Port, together with some tippets.

Edited by archie57
Clarity!

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In the Autumn 2017 edition of NarrowBoat magazine (on sales from 29th September) there will be an article "Blue and Yellow - A close look at the much-derided livery of British Waterways boat"

That assumes you can wait that long?

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18 hours ago, archie57 said:

The top cloth lettering is 5 3/4" tall, standing on an arc of 31 1/2".  The boat number is 4", and the D and 4 63 across the corner are 3 inches. I presume the "D" is the date the cloth was "dressed". It follows that it must have been one of the last from Bulls Bridge, I had some more new/unused top cloths originally from Bulls Bridge, they hadn't been lettered and I passed them on to Ellesmere Port, together with some tippets.

That is incredibly helpful thank you very much indeed. 

I am a bit confused by the "D" bit and will try and find a few more old pictures to have a look at when I get time and a better connection. 

I think it is wonderful you passed on the unused cloths to Ellesmere Port. I hope they make good use of them

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19 hours ago, GRLMK38 said:

In the Autumn 2017 edition of NarrowBoat magazine (on sales from 29th September) there will be an article "Blue and Yellow - A close look at the much-derided livery of British Waterways boat"

That assumes you can wait that long?

That is going to make very interesting reading indeed. 

I was hoping very much that Python would be done and dusted long before the end of September (by which time she will be engaged in a 2 month programme of offside veg cutting on The Chesterfield Canal before the various stoppages kick in early in November) As anyone who has ever worked on a project like this will be aware, everything takes longer than you hope it will and if forces can conspire against you making progress they will. 

I was becoming very frustrated by the slow progress at one point but in fairness to achieve what we have in the time we have with a group of volunteers of mixed experience and ability is quite an achievement and I am very proud of them all. 

Instead of trying to get everything done by a set date we need to remember that a restoration project does not have an end date. It is more a case of a gentle transition between describing it as restoration and describing it as maintenance. Where the use of one word ends and the start of the other begins does not have a set time and nor should it. Getting her finished will take as long as it takes. 

I suspect when she makes a brief appearance on the system at the end of the summer she might still be looking a bit of a work in progress but hopefully people who care about old boats will be far happier seeing her with her progress than not seeing her at all. 

  • Greenie 1

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5 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

That is incredibly helpful thank you very much indeed. 

I am a bit confused by the "D" bit and will try and find a few more old pictures to have a look at when I get time and a better connection. 

I think it is wonderful you passed on the unused cloths to Ellesmere Port. I hope they make good use of them

Does this help....

http://www.waterwaysmuseum.org.uk/item/a-motorboat-skipper-preparing-to-take-the-butty-in/7470

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