Insurance, are you covered?

[Paul C]

The online car tax buying website no longer checks for insurance before renewing the tax. It is quite a recent change.

Previously, it used the registration number alone, of the car, ie it didn't cross-check further details such as ensuring the policyholder's name matched the registered keeper, etc.

[Jess--]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

The online car tax buying website no longer checks for insurance before renewing the tax. It is quite a recent change.

Previously, it used the registration number alone, of the car, ie it didn't cross-check further details such as ensuring the policyholder's name matched the registered keeper, etc.

The online car tax website flagged that the vehicle was insured when I tried to tax a car last monday, unfortunately it also flagged that the MOT had expired 24 hours earlier (it passed the next morning)

[Paul C]

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2520649/Need-insurance-certificate-buy-car-tax-axed.html

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Paul C said:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2520649/Need-insurance-certificate-buy-car-tax-axed.html

Yes but from your link:

"Insurance now automatically checked against central database"

All the article is saying is you don't have to physically produce an insurance stifficate.

[Paul C]

29 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

The online car tax website flagged that the vehicle was insured when I tried to tax a car last monday, unfortunately it also flagged that the MOT had expired 24 hours earlier (it passed the next morning)

Interesting. I distinctly remember NOT being asked (or an auto check) of insurance being made last time I taxed my car online, I do remember it was an announced change a little after "continuous insurance" (ie if you don't SORN a vehicle, you MUST have it insured otherwise you get an automatic fine - even if its not actually used on the roads ie stored on a driveway/garage) was introduced too.

Also recently, I received a letter from DVLA with a direct debit payment schedule for the forthcoming year's road tax - it auto renewed after a year.

I have another car which is currently SORNed, I won't be taxing it until the spring/summer but I'll remember this thread and see if it does/doesn't do the insurance check as your experience above shows - perhaps they still do a small percentage, or there's something unusual about your car/location (NI??)

5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes but from your link:

"Insurance now automatically checked against central database"

All the article is saying is you don't have to physically produce an insurance stifficate.

The article mentions that insurance is continually/regularly checked - ie its no longer "spot checked" at the point of tax renewal, whether this is done online or at the post office.

[cuthound]

Here are the motor insurance and MoT databases.

https://www.mib.org.uk/managing-insurance-data/the-motor-insurance-database-mid/

 

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Does the system also check that the name on the insurance tallies with the name on the registration document?  Even if it does, as you say that is not necessarily the same thing.  Having made that check, does it then record all the details for future use, or does it accept that at that moment of check, all is in order?

I can see the scenario without annual VED, where  a car has passed all the above checks for several years, without the owner at that time having bothered to inform DVLA of change of keeper.  Then one check, 5 years down the line, no insurance and the system flags it up.  Unless the system retains full details of keeper and insurer of all the intermediate checks, we have an uninsured car with keeper details 5 years old that may have passed through several intermediate keepers.

Maybe the system is capable, and more importantly, allowed to keep such detail, I don't know.

George ex nb Alton retired

I don't see that as a particular problem. It is currently an offence to sell a car and not inform DVLA, so the same would hold true under my proposed 21st Century system.

The rules could very simply be amended so that if you don't inform DVLA then not only have you committed an offence, you're also responsible for any charges incurred by that vehicle (parking, speeding etc). In fact I believe that is the system currently in operation in which case no changes required. 

[furnessvale]

24 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I don't see that as a particular problem. It is currently an offence to sell a car and not inform DVLA, so the same would hold true under my proposed 21st Century system.

The rules could very simply be amended so that if you don't inform DVLA then not only have you committed an offence, you're also responsible for any charges incurred by that vehicle (parking, speeding etc). In fact I believe that is the system currently in operation in which case no changes required. 

Agreed it is currently an offence but it still happens and without an annual update it could well get out of hand.

Good luck with changing the law so that a man who failed to notify change of ownership is now liable for causing death by dangerous driving and fail to stop 5 years later.

George ex nb Alton retired

[Paul C]

17 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Agreed it is currently an offence but it still happens and without an annual update it could well get out of hand.

Good luck with changing the law so that a man who failed to notify change of ownership is now liable for causing death by dangerous driving and fail to stop 5 years later.

George ex nb Alton retired

The frequency of checking is much more frequent than annually, indeed it could be argued that there were a lot of issues in previous times due to it being only annually. The reason the check is no longer made, partly is because the checks are much more frequent - both via the system which enforces/detects breaches of the 2011 continuous insurance law, and ANPR.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Paul C

[furnessvale]

14 minutes ago, Paul C said:

The frequency of checking is much more frequent than annually, indeed it could be argued that there were a lot of issues in previous times due to it being only annually. The reason the check is no longer made, partly is because the checks are much more frequent - both via the system which enforces/detects breaches of the 2011 continuous insurance law, and ANPR.

 

But like Wotever, you are failing to account for the vehicle that could go for several years, looking perfectly legal, changing hands several times, without DVLA being notified of change of ownership but various people insuring it so it will not be flagged up by ANPR.

The newest owner, being a right scroat, fails to insure it and commits a serious fail to stop accident.  The police go to the last registered keeper who parted with it 5 years ago but forgot to notify DVLA.  The police now have to try and trace through to the present owner, by the way, one of the intermediates died 2 years ago.

The point of an annual VED renewal is that it is an additional reminder to notify DVLA, especially as what is effectively a bill for VED for a car you have sold, has just dropped on your doormat.

Of course, if the regular automatic checks such as ANPR to which you refer, keep a copy of all the details they check so the police can trace back the history of car ownership over the years, then everything I have said is surplus to requirements, but do they?

George ex nb Alton retired

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

.., changing hands several times, without DVLA being notified of change of ownership but various people insuring it...

I think you've just supplied a pretty good clue in your post there as to who currently owns it. 

You cant insure a car unless you own it.

Your scenario of the car changing hands several times with no-one aware couldn't happen. 

[furnessvale]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think you've just supplied a pretty good clue in your post there as to who currently owns it. 

You cant insure a car unless you own it.

Your scenario of the car changing hands several times with no-one aware couldn't happen. 

You still don't get it. 

I can own and insure a car but how does the insurer know I have informed DVLA?

Yes it is insured but does DVLA cross reference against keeper details, who may not be the owner anyway so it would not tally, or keep records for years as to who insured it?

George ex nb Alton retired

[Paul C]

7 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

But like Wotever, you are failing to account for the vehicle that could go for several years, looking perfectly legal, changing hands several times, without DVLA being notified of change of ownership but various people insuring it so it will not be flagged up by ANPR.

The newest owner, being a right scroat, fails to insure it and commits a serious fail to stop accident.  The police go to the last registered keeper who parted with it 5 years ago but forgot to notify DVLA.  The police now have to try and trace through to the present owner, by the way, one of the intermediates died 2 years ago.

The point of an annual VED renewal is that it is an additional reminder to notify DVLA, especially as what is effectively a bill for VED for a car you have sold, has just dropped on your doormat.

Of course, if the regular automatic checks such as ANPR to which you refer, keep a copy of all the details they check so the police can trace back the history of car ownership over the years, then everything I have said is surplus to requirements, but do they?

George ex nb Alton retired

I think you're relying on a series of rare/unusual occurrencs to prop up your hypothesised scenario. The vast majority of people know about the V5 and the fact that a car has a registered keeper, and that when you sell a car you hand over the slip; and similarly when you buy one, you want to receive the V5 document, signed by the previous keeper (the seller). There simply isn't a long line of people selling their cars but not notifying DVLA of the change.

As mentioned previously, the current system, even though it allows an auto-renewal of tax for a car, sends a DD payment schedule once a year. I believe in other cases the conventional "renew your tax or declare SORN" document is sent.

I am not sure you fully understand what ANPR does - it cannot identify an owner of a car, all it can do is identify a car registration plate, and put a place and time to this occurrence. The power comes from being linked to databases. For example if a car is uninsured (there is a system which regularly checks) it will "flag" the relevant car index as uninsured - and provide other useful details to the ANPR operator, eg make/model/colour/last known keeper details. Also it links registered keepers to who's covered by the insurance policy to driver licence (and bans/no licence) details, etc. It also links to car tax, although the police aren't particularly bothered about this. I believe the DVLA also use ANPR separately from the police, to check for car tax evasion.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

You still don't get it. 

I can own and insure a car but how does the insurer know I have informed DVLA?

You inform them that you have. It's one of the questions on any insurance application: are you the named keeper?

Your scenario suggests that there are hundreds, nay thousands (if it's to become an 'issue') of folk who will break the law by not informing DVLA of a change of ownership and who will then make a fraudulent insurance application. 

It states clearly on the back of a V5 that "If you do not tell us that you have sold or transferred the vehicle, you will continue to be liable for it and may receive a fine or prosecution". So no mythical law changes are required, they already exist. 

[furnessvale]

Fair enough, I'll leave you both to it.  I do know from my time as a police officer that there are many sins of omission rather than deliberate lawbreaking which the additional action of taxing each year would jog memories about.

George ex nb Alton retired

ps I know what ANPR does, but trying to keep things simple.

 

[dor]

5 hours ago, Paul C said:

The online car tax buying website no longer checks for insurance before renewing the tax. It is quite a recent change.

Previously, it used the registration number alone, of the car, ie it didn't cross-check further details such as ensuring the policyholder's name matched the registered keeper, etc.

I read the article that the insurance status will still be checked.  The difference is that you don't have to take a physical insurance certificate into the Post Office when taxing the car as they will automatically check online.

[widebeamboy]

21 hours ago, WotEver said:

You cant insure a car unless you own it.

That isn't true.  You cannot insure a car unless you have an insurable interest in it, the same goes for anything that can be insured.  Yes you will most likely need a decent broker to get past the computer says no responses you get from the mainstream insurers.   

[Graham Davis]

Technically you don't own a car if bought on HP, or if you have bought under a Personal Lease or Purchase Plan, but you still have to insure the car yourself.

[widebeamboy]

13 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Technically you don't own a car if bought on HP, or if you have bought under a Personal Lease or Purchase Plan, but you still have to insure the car yourself.

indeed it is why we have the concept of registered keeper and owner as being distinct in numerous situations with liability for each fairly simply laid out.  

[WotEver]

51 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Technically you don't own a car if bought on HP, or if you have bought under a Personal Lease or Purchase Plan, but you still have to insure the car yourself.

Yes, 'named as registered keeper' is the phrase on all insurance applications I've filled in. 

 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, widebeamboy said:

That isn't true.  You cannot insure a car unless you have an insurable interest in it, the same goes for anything that can be insured.  Yes you will most likely need a decent broker to get past the computer says no responses you get from the mainstream insurers.   

Quite possibly with a specialist broker, I didn't try.

When my mum passed away I couldn't get insurance on her car in order to drive it home (because I wasn't the registered keeper) until I added it as a 2nd car on my own insurance policy 'with the owner's permission'. Me being the only beneficiary I gave myself permission. 

[Paul C]

There isn't a simple check for "insurable interest" that can be done (online) by the insurance companies, though. Certainly not during setting up a policy (they may make further checks if faced with paying out a large sum though). If they are assuming insurable interest = registered keeper then that is a very vague way to do it with many legitimate cases not covered.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

There isn't a simple check for "insurable interest" that can be done (online) by the insurance companies, though. Certainly not during setting up a policy (they may make further checks if faced with paying out a large sum though). If they are assuming insurable interest = registered keeper then that is a very vague way to do it with many legitimate cases not covered.

Vague or not, if you approach a main stream insurance company - Direct Line, MoreThan, Esure et al - it's one of the questions. 

[Graham Davis]

20 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Vague or not, if you approach a main stream insurance company - Direct Line, MoreThan, Esure et al - it's one of the questions. 

The question I have always been asked is "Are you the Registered Keeper?" That includes last week when I insured my car with SAGA.

 

[WotEver]

Just now, Graham Davis said:

The question I have always been asked is "Are you the Registered Keeper?" That includes last week when I insured my car with SAGA.

Absolutely. That's exactly what I've said several times in this thread. 

I may have caused confusion when I posted 'own' in one post, but 'registered keeper' is what I meant and have repeated.