Tax inspectors on Narrowboats??

[David Schweizer]

Wasn't the 60/40 split the suggestion from some boating type group? In all honesty when all this kicked off the revenue were at pains to stress that it was only a starting point.

 

 

Frank

 

My understanding was that when derogation on Red Diesel was removed, the HMRC consulted with a number of boating organizations and came up with a notional 40/60 split as being a fairly accurate assesment of most cruising boat's annual usage, and that any boater declaring that split would not be subject to any scrutiny. Some yards then took this to be their standard and, for simplified accounting reasons would only sell diesel based upon that formula, which was subsequently supported by HMRC.

[MtB]

So, it is correct, then?

 

 

No, don't be silly!

 

Failing to learn and use correct boating terminology is one of the factors that differentiates a proper boater from one just playing at it. As any fule kno.

[FadeToScarlet]

No, don't be silly!

 

Failing to learn and use correct boating terminology is one of the factors that differentiates a proper boater from one just playing at it. As any fule kno.

Exactly. So, if you came over here to the rivers Nene or Ouse, you'd talk about using your lock key to open the slackers in the gates. If on the middle level, you'd open penstocks in the pointing doors

 

Terminology has regional variations, there's no one-size-fits-all "correct" answer.

[MtB]

Exactly. So, if you came over here to the rivers Nene or Ouse, you'd talk about using your lock key to open the slackers in the gates. If on the middle level, you'd open penstocks in the pointing doors

 

Terminology has regional variations, there's no one-size-fits-all "correct" answer.

 

 

Are you saying 'lock key' is the traditionally used term for what proper boaters over here might call a windlass, over there on the Nene and the Ouse?

[FadeToScarlet]

Are you saying 'lock key' is the traditionally used term for what proper boaters over here might call a windlass, over there on the Nene and the Ouse?

To be honest, I don't know. The social history of boating here has been much less investigated than on the cut. I will have to do some more investigation.

[Neil2]

I think he mis-heard someone say they used their lockie to open the paddles, sorry, slackers.

[carlt]

sorry, slackers.

 

Is that the Nene term for volockies?

[Athy]

 

Is that the Nene term for volockies?

[Machpoint005]

 

 

Are you saying 'lock key' is the traditionally used term for what proper boaters over here might call a windlass, over there on the Nene and the Ouse?

 

My daughter has always referred to that device as a "stick". If you happen to be holding one at the time, it is completely unambiguous!

I think he mis-heard someone say they used their lockie to open the paddles, sorry, slackers.

 

You don't open paddles, you draw them.

The opposite action is to drop them.

(by winding them down, natch).

[Neil2]

Get your lockie to draw the slackers and then drop 'em.

[ditchcrawler]

Was it perhaps adjacent to Newbold Tunnel? We found one member of staff there very abrasive when we called in for gas this summer.

If its the one I am thinking of they do a split

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

I too was wondering what a 'gas key' might be. It is no more correct a term for a spanner than 'lock key' is for a windlass.

 

Have you considered adopting the recent fashion for calling lock gates 'lock doors' too?

 

I still can imagine anyone having gas on their boat and not have a spanner to change the cylinder or is that bottle.

[tillergirl]

The Here's a copy of the guideline issued by HMRC for charging for red diesel : How do I know whether or not to charge duty?

In many cases it may be clear whether the supply you are making is for commercial purposes or for private pleasure use, for example, when supplying regular customers.

 

(i) Supplies for Commercial Use

 

There is no change to procedures for supplying fuel for commercial use.

 

You are not required to ask customers to produce documentary evidence to prove their status as commercial or private.

 

(ii) Supplies to Pleasure craft

 

You are not responsible for ascertaining whether the fuel you sell to an individual is for the propulsion of a private pleasure craft; it is the purchaser’s responsibility to do so and to make a declaration to that effect.

[MtB]

I still can imagine anyone having gas on their boat and not have a spanner to change the cylinder or is that bottle.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Mr Athy has said in the past he doesn't have one. Whenever the gas runs out he takes the boat to a boatyard or marina and asks them to change the bottle for him, IIRC.

[Athy]

I still can imagine anyone having gas on their boat and not have a spanner to change the cylinder.

So can I.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Mr Athy has said in the past he doesn't have one. Whenever the gas runs out he takes the boat to a boatyard or marina and asks them to change the bottle for him, IIRC.

You are correct. A bottle/cylinder of gas usually lasts us a year and we have it changed when the engine has its annual service. This year we had used rather less, hence calling at the boatyard a couple of weeks after Springwood Haven had serviced the engine.

[MtB]

So can I.

You are correct. A bottle/cylinder of gas usually lasts us a year and we have it changed when the engine has its annual service. This year we had used rather less, hence calling at the boatyard a couple of weeks after Springwood Haven had serviced the engine.

 

 

This is a good policy if you can get away with it. Have you ever tried changing a red propane gas bottle? The left hand thread will fry your circuits the first few times you do it!

[Neil2]

I regard the changing of a propane cylinder as one of those ageing "mileposts", what I mean is I can still do it but I can see the time coming when I simply won't be able to manhandle the thing out of the bow locker, much less get the full one back in.

 

I can't look that old because no-one's offered to do it for me yet but I do notice the traffic often stops to let me cross the road these days.

[Horace42]

 

 

This is a good policy if you can get away with it. Have you ever tried changing a red propane gas bottle? The left hand thread will fry your circuits the first few times you do it!

Especially if you don't have a left-handed gas key.

[Mal in Somerset]

The Here's a copy of the guideline issued by HMRC for charging for red diesel : How do I know whether or not to charge duty?

In many cases it may be clear whether the supply you are making is for commercial purposes or for private pleasure use, for example, when supplying regular customers.

 

(i) Supplies for Commercial Use

 

There is no change to procedures for supplying fuel for commercial use.

 

You are not required to ask customers to produce documentary evidence to prove their status as commercial or private.

 

(ii) Supplies to Pleasure craft

 

You are not responsible for ascertaining whether the fuel you sell to an individual is for the propulsion of a private pleasure craft; it is the purchaser’s responsibility to do so and to make a declaration to that effect.

 

A few more excerpts from Guidance Notice 554 and my interpretations:

 

“You’re not responsible if a purchaser makes a false declaration.”

 

It is up to the buyer not the seller and therefore HMRC cannot under normal circumstances pursue the seller, however:

 

“If you have any reason to doubt the validity of the status being claimed then you should note your records to that effect.”

 

This means that HMRC can inspect the seller’s records and then pursue the purchaser if HMRC have reason to believe they have made a false declaration. However under Notice 192, if the seller “knows” the purchaser is making a false declaration then they must report it to HMRC immediately. This is where a seller may be open to further investigation (e.g. the seller is shown to be deliberately colluding with the purchaser/s.)

 

“Analysis by both the industry and HMRC suggests that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for other use probably reflects most people’s fuel use and it’s therefore likely that many users will declare such an apportionment. This will make it easier for suppliers (RDCOs) to work out the additional duty and VAT. However, where you know that your propulsion use may be more or less than the above apportionment split or a craft clearly has no non-propulsion fuel use, then you must declare your actual intended usage.”

 

Note the use of the word must - the buyer "must" declare their actual intended usage (more or less) if it is not 60/40 (and the seller should accept this declaration unless they know it to be false or note their records if they have any concern that it might be incorrect??)

 

“We recognise that there are boat owners whose primary, or only, residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent moorings. If you live aboard your craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or other documentation, such as invoices or bills which provide proof of permanent residency, you may purchase all your fuel at the rebated rate (as if you owned a commercial vessel). You are not required to make a declaration.”

 

So non-moving residential boats don’t need to make a declaration but will need to prove their residential status if questioned by HMRC.

 

“If you’re a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non-propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.”

 

But CCers must always make a declaration, but it doesn’t say it can’t be a 0% or minimal propulsion declaration (i.e. if you are on long term winter moorings etc.) It’s down to your “intended” propulsion usage!

Edited October 23, 2016 by Mal in Somerset

[Guest]

I regard the changing of a propane cylinder as one of those ageing "mileposts", what I mean is I can still do it but I can see the time coming when I simply won't be able to manhandle the thing out of the bow locker, much less get the full one back in.

 

I can't look that old because no-one's offered to do it for me yet but I do notice the traffic often stops to let me cross the road these days.

I struggle with that owing to back problem but one member advised using a rope to lower it in, and it helps a great deal. I plan to make a crane on the front to lift stuff on and off.

[ditchcrawler]

So can I.

Well spotted young man

Especially if you don't have a left-handed gas key.

Are they a different colour so you know which is which?

[LoneWolf]

 

A few more excerpts from Guidance Notice 554 and my interpretations:

 

“You’re not responsible if a purchaser makes a false declaration.”

 

It is up to the buyer not the seller and therefore HMRC cannot under normal circumstances pursue the seller, however:

 

“If you have any reason to doubt the validity of the status being claimed then you should note your records to that effect.”

 

This means that HMRC can inspect the seller’s records and then pursue the purchaser if HMRC have reason to believe they have made a false declaration. However under Notice 192, if the seller “knows” the purchaser is making a false declaration then they must report it to HMRC immediately. This is where a seller may be open to further investigation (e.g. the seller is shown to be deliberately colluding with the purchaser/s.)

 

“Analysis by both the industry and HMRC suggests that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for other use probably reflects most people’s fuel use and it’s therefore likely that many users will declare such an apportionment. This will make it easier for suppliers (RDCOs) to work out the additional duty and VAT. However, where you know that your propulsion use may be more or less than the above apportionment split or a craft clearly has no non-propulsion fuel use, then you must declare your actual intended usage.”

 

Note the use of the word must - the buyer "must" declare their actual intended usage (more or less) if it is not 60/40 (and the seller should accept this declaration unless they know it to be false or note their records if they have any concern that it might be incorrect??)

 

“We recognise that there are boat owners whose primary, or only, residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent moorings. If you live aboard your craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or other documentation, such as invoices or bills which provide proof of permanent residency, you may purchase all your fuel at the rebated rate (as if you owned a commercial vessel). You are not required to make a declaration.”

 

So non-moving residential boats don’t need to make a declaration but will need to prove their residential status if questioned by HMRC.

 

“If you’re a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non-propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.”

 

But CCers must always make a declaration, but it doesn’t say it can’t be a 0% or minimal propulsion declaration (i.e. if you are on long term winter moorings etc.) It’s down to your “intended” propulsion usage!

 

 

Your interpretations look spot on to me

[ditchcrawler]

 

A few more excerpts from Guidance Notice 554 and my interpretations:

 

“You’re not responsible if a purchaser makes a false declaration.”

 

It is up to the buyer not the seller and therefore HMRC cannot under normal circumstances pursue the seller, however:

 

“If you have any reason to doubt the validity of the status being claimed then you should note your records to that effect.”

 

This means that HMRC can inspect the seller’s records and then pursue the purchaser if HMRC have reason to believe they have made a false declaration. However under Notice 192, if the seller “knows” the purchaser is making a false declaration then they must report it to HMRC immediately. This is where a seller may be open to further investigation (e.g. the seller is shown to be deliberately colluding with the purchaser/s.)

 

“Analysis by both the industry and HMRC suggests that a split of 60% for propulsion and 40% for other use probably reflects most people’s fuel use and it’s therefore likely that many users will declare such an apportionment. This will make it easier for suppliers (RDCOs) to work out the additional duty and VAT. However, where you know that your propulsion use may be more or less than the above apportionment split or a craft clearly has no non-propulsion fuel use, then you must declare your actual intended usage.”

 

Note the use of the word must - the buyer "must" declare their actual intended usage (more or less) if it is not 60/40 (and the seller should accept this declaration unless they know it to be false or note their records if they have any concern that it might be incorrect??)

 

“We recognise that there are boat owners whose primary, or only, residence is their boat. Some of these will be at fixed moorings or move just a very short distance along the tow path from permanent moorings. If you live aboard your craft permanently and hold certain documentation, such as a Houseboat Licence, Residential Mooring Licence, Council Tax bill in respect of the mooring, or other documentation, such as invoices or bills which provide proof of permanent residency, you may purchase all your fuel at the rebated rate (as if you owned a commercial vessel). You are not required to make a declaration.”

 

So non-moving residential boats don’t need to make a declaration but will need to prove their residential status if questioned by HMRC.

 

“If you’re a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non-propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.”

 

But CCers must always make a declaration, but it doesn’t say it can’t be a 0% or minimal propulsion declaration (i.e. if you are on long term winter moorings etc.) It’s down to your “intended” propulsion usage!

That puts a lot more flesh on the bones, thanks

[Taslim]

Especially if you don't have a left-handed gas key.

The right handed ones will work, at a pinch, if you turn them over.

 

Ed to add a lettter.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Taslim

[Horace42]

Well spotted young man

Are they a different colour so you know which is which?

Don't lnow, but I guess left handed would be red (port) and right handed would be green (starboard)