Ribble

[Pluto]

Ribble passed over the L&LC summit today carrying 32 tons of sand from Goole to Liverpool, the first load over the canal's summit for 38 years. This is Barrowford this evening.

[Quaysider]

I love the L & L - that journey was the first time we'd hired and so holds a fond place in my heart.

[Nightwatch]

Saw it. And I waved. Who are you Pluto?

[archie57]

That's good to see - thanks for posting - with 32 tons what would it be drawing? There's a fair bit of dry side, what's the L & L like generally for depth, as bad as most other canals? What sort of tonnage and on what draught would a short boat be capable of loading in the old days?

[Laurence Hogg]

Superb design of boat doing its real job, you can't get better than that.

[TheBiscuits]

Considering David got stuck (twice!) at Johnson's Hillock locks on the way over there while empty, I hope he has a better trip back.

[Derek R.]

Saw it. And I waved. Who are you Pluto?

 

http://www.mikeclarke.myzen.co.uk/home.htm

 

Draught? According to the painted numbers on the stern, about 2' 9".

Edited September 26, 2016 by Derek R.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Jo Briggs boasted of taking 50 tons of sugar from Liverpool to Leeds during the war in 52 hours.

[Derek R.]

That's right, though I think his name was Joe Bridge. Lived in Skipton. Made us a little Monkey's fist for the light line. Tried to get us to paint our fenders with white enamel "Tha's what we did for show. Last longer too".

[Pluto]

That's good to see - thanks for posting - with 32 tons what would it be drawing? There's a fair bit of dry side, what's the L & L like generally for depth, as bad as most other canals? What sort of tonnage and on what draught would a short boat be capable of loading in the old days?

Ribble would have usually carried just over 50 tons maximum at around 4 feet (L&LC boats draw about 2 tons per inch), though it is very unlikely that that sort of tonnage could be carried now. 32 tons just brings the bow down, and we draw a similar depth with Kennet when empty, though currently we have around 10 tons of ballast to get the bow down and make things easier in the wind.

 

David Poole, who owns Ribble, says that he hasn't had much in the way of problems yet with depth, but that there are sections where it would be difficult to carry much more. Barry had been helping him from Bingley. Hopefully Fanshaft will be along to give chapter and verse, as he organised the load.

[fanshaft]

Ribble would have usually carried just over 50 tons maximum at around 4 feet (L&LC boats draw about 2 tons per inch), though it is very unlikely that that sort of tonnage could be carried now. 32 tons just brings the bow down, and we draw a similar depth with Kennet when empty, though currently we have around 10 tons of ballast to get the bow down and make things easier in the wind.

 

David Poole, who owns Ribble, says that he hasn't had much in the way of problems yet with depth, but that there are sections where it would be difficult to carry much more. Barry had been helping him from Bingley. Hopefully Fanshaft will be along to give chapter and verse, as he organised the load.

 

Dear all, here I am!! This trip has been the culmination of considerable planning and it's great to see 'Ribble' actually on the move and looking so smart.

To mark the Bi-Centenary year of the completion of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal, David and Margaret Poole, owners of the 1934 built Leeds & Liverpool short boat ‘Ribble’ got together with various parties to organise a demonstration ‘cargo’ run across the canal. The object was so that people would get the chance to see what a loaded short boat looks like - a sight once commonplace,but not seen on the Leeds & Liverpool canal for over 30 years. In David Poole's words it would bring joy to those who knew what they were looking at (and education to those who didn’t), and also it would be a fitting tribute to all those who built and worked on the canal; at a purely practical level it would be a good test of the extensive dredging work that has been done recently on the L&L.

Arrangements for the cargo and the loading were made through the Commercial Boat Operators Association and 32 tonnes of sand (in 1 tonne bags) was donated by CBOA member AC Marine Aggregates Ltd, and loaded on to ‘Ribble in Goole Docks by North West Trading Ltd at no cost on 21st September, with assistance and advice from Humber Barges Ltd. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency gave the trip its blessing, categorised it as a 'pleasure trip' and the sand could be classed as 'ballast' - commonplace on the narrow canals. The Canal & River Trust (NW waterway) supported the project as did the Trust’s N E Partnership – and the sand will be donated to the Trust at the end of the voyage. This was the first load of sand to taken up the Aire & Calder Navigation for three years but while Ribble’s voyage is not a true commercial cargo, resumption of sand deliveries to Leeds is expected later this year. ‘Ribble’ was the first loaded short boat to traverse the Leeds & Liverpool eastern end since 1982, and the first across the summit since September 1978 when short boat ‘Weaver’ crossed from Selby to Manchester with a load of fish meal.

In terms of draft - 'Ribble' was 3 ft 2 in aft and about 2 ft 10 in forward on loading, but the damp sand dried out, and by Gargrave the draft aft was down to just over 3 ft. These metal boats could carry 50 tonnes on 4 ft (though the last three carried up to 55 tonnes for the same draft). Apollo Canal Carriers Ltd was carrying 55 tonne loads in 'Everton' between Esholt and Leeds/Goole in the late 1970s, bringing 50 tonne loads of aggregate up to Shipley until 1982 with little trouble, and in earlier days 45 tonne loads of grain (3 ft 9 in draft) between Liverpool and Manchester in the 1970s. 40 tonnes over the summit was about the limit by the late 1970s.

There were few problems draft wise on the eastern side. Offside foliage through Calverley woods pushed 'Ribble' into the mud, which coupled with heavy weeding, made for difficult progress, and near Gargrave a sudden and unexpected shoal (near where dredgings had been unloaded) pushed 'Ribble' into the path of an incoming boat, fortunately with no damage other than embarassment.

For much of the way it was difficult to find a proper channel, but if carrying resumed I'm sure one would return. Like many UK waterways much of the canal (especially where recently dredged) is probably better in terms of depth than in the 1970s but some parts are not as good. There were no bridge hole problems at all, but exit from the western end of Foulridge tunnel was difficult due to silting. Back in the 1970s when I was operating loaded boats on the L&L the main problem was that it was never possible to be sure whether the long pools in Lancashire would be full - and as they usually weren't that was the reason for the problem if over 3 ft 6 in. In Yorkshire the pounds were fine and BW did actually put weir boards back on the byewashes some of which remain today (as at Field Locks) though the pound from Hirst Wood to Dowley Gap is now maintained as it was previously with the weir boards removed - that said it wasn't a problem.

I steered from Field Locks to Gargrave and it was wonderful to be back on a loaded short boat through my old 'stamping ground'. I cannot praise David and Margaret Poole enough for their enterprise and kindness.

I hope that is of interest.

Kind regards

David L

[archie57]

Many thanks for the interesting and informative replies!

[bargemast]

Thanks for this informative story David, and also to David and Margaret Poole for supplying their boat and kindness.

 

Too bad I could be there to see it myself, hope there will be other occasions in the future.

 

Peter

[TheBiscuits]

Considering David got stuck (twice!) at Johnson's Hillock locks on the way over there while empty, I hope he has a better trip back.

 

 

I am pleased to confirm that Ribble has successfully transited the 200 year old bit of the L&L - Blackburn to Wheelton.

 

Due to outstanding support from CRT, the long pound between Blackburn Locks and Johnson's Hillock Locks was about 5 inches below weir levels, and the two locks they promised to clear the debris from behind the gates still would not open wide enough to easily fit the boat through.

 

They managed to get to Top Lock at Wheelton about an hour and a half after sunset, then spent 2 hours clearing the prop this morning.

 

Jamming in the same two locks they got stuck in on the way over added quite a bit of time to Johnson's Hillock, but was managed eventually.

 

Wigan Flight tomorrow - I hope it goes more smoothly there!

[TheBiscuits]

A few photos.

 

 

Ribble at Blackburn bottom lock, with the very helpful new volockies Peter & Barbara.

 

 

 

The banners on the sheets.

 

 

And the load itself. There is room for more in the boat, but probably not if David wants it to float!

 

Wigan tomorrow morning if any local enthusiasts want to come and see Ribble passing.

[Jrtm]

This is great but goes to show sometimes how poor the system can be. Boat use to take bugger loads without trouble now a half loaded boat struggles. I know its not every day this happens but the trip could have gone alot easyer and quicker. Fair play that crt are out helping but they shouldnt need to be out helping.

 

I do love to see loaded boats at the end of the day its what the boats and canals were built for.

[Pluto]

 

 

I am pleased to confirm that Ribble has successfully transited the 200 year old bit of the L&L - Blackburn to Wheelton.

 

Due to outstanding support from CRT, the long pound between Blackburn Locks and Johnson's Hillock Locks was about 5 inches below weir levels, and the two locks they promised to clear the debris from behind the gates still would not open wide enough to easily fit the boat through.

 

They managed to get to Top Lock at Wheelton about an hour and a half after sunset, then spent 2 hours clearing the prop this morning.

 

Jamming in the same two locks they got stuck in on the way over added quite a bit of time to Johnson's Hillock, but was managed eventually.

 

Wigan Flight tomorrow - I hope it goes more smoothly there!

The Wigan flight is also part of the canal opened 200 years ago. This is Britannia Bridge, with the opening date inscribed. There is also a sheep (Leeds) and liver-bird (Liverpool) if you look really closely.

[TheBiscuits]

Didn't have time to look today. 3 1/2 hours with a laden boat was an excellent run for all 23 locks.

[Nightwatch]

That's good going. Wigan locks is NOT what I'm looking forward to.

[TheBiscuits]

Aah, they are fine. We have worked them 16 times this year so far, and will probably do them a few more times yet.

 

Join the bicentenary flotilla and you will be mob handed going back down!

[Nightwatch]

When are they passing through?

 

I like easy.

[Pluto]

When are they passing through?

 

I like easy.

21st October, with a full timetable or the trip available on the L&LC Society's web site www.llcs.org.uk.

[fanshaft]

 

 

I am pleased to confirm that Ribble has successfully transited the 200 year old bit of the L&L - Blackburn to Wheelton.

 

Due to outstanding support from CRT, the long pound between Blackburn Locks and Johnson's Hillock Locks was about 5 inches below weir levels, and the two locks they promised to clear the debris from behind the gates still would not open wide enough to easily fit the boat through.

 

They managed to get to Top Lock at Wheelton about an hour and a half after sunset, then spent 2 hours clearing the prop this morning.

 

Jamming in the same two locks they got stuck in on the way over added quite a bit of time to Johnson's Hillock, but was managed eventually.

 

Wigan Flight tomorrow - I hope it goes more smoothly there!

 

Ribble arrived in Liverpool on Saturday, and left on Sunday for the trip back to Rose Grove where C&RT staff will unload part or all of the sand. Today Ribble is or was delayed at Crabtree Lane swing bridge due to a problem with the bridge's electric motor - not something that would have troubled Ribble when built - unless Plank Lane and / or Litherland bridges were already mechanised then! (Pluto will know)

The comment about a level or levels being 5 inches down deserves consideration. When I re-started cargo carrying over the L&L summit in 1973/4 I asked the Area Engineer, John Freeman, why the long pools in Lancashire (from the summit going west) were often apparently allowed to drop down a few inches. He replied that because the Leeds & Liverpool was 'effectively a 127 mile colander' (probably still true in part) these pounds were allowed to drop so that when the rains came they would rapidly fill from all the feeders, without using precious reservoir water; otherwise that rain water which didn't itself help to fill the reservoirs would go to waste over the spill weirs. I would think the same is true today and that the levels are kept down (or allowed to fall) on purpose and not through some incompetence on the part of someone in the water supply team. It could be argued that C&RT should have filled the pounds knowing that Ribble was passing through, but would that have been a good use of a vast amount of reservoir water? In any case one of the objects of the trip was to test the canal is it is without any special arrangements in place, and I think that has been achieved thanks to David and Margaret and all who have helped in some way. Hopefully the subsquent report will help Peter Birch and the C&RT dredging team, and the dredging sub-group, to prioritise subsequent dredging on the canal.

It should be possible to take a 14 ft beam boat drawing 3 ft across the canal without udue difficulty. In October 1974 I took my first load right across the canal, 30 tonnes of grain screenings from Brunswick dock, Liverpool, to BOCM Selby in five days with no difficulty that I can recall. The return load, 40 tonnes of barley from Whitley Bridge to Manchester (draft 3 ft 6 in), was a different story - sticking in bridge holes, especially in Lancashire, eventually causing a leak - I was greedy and should have taken 35 tonnes! It was for that reason we decided to run from Liverpool (Seaforth) to BOCM Manchester on a regular basis, rather than over the summit, as that was less of a challenge, with tonnages rising from 30 tonnes in November to 45 tonnes in January (50 tonnes might well have been possible but the condition of the bottom of the boats gave concern and it was too risky; wet grain is not much good to anyone! )

Incidentally Hugh Porter, BOCM Silcock Transport manager in the 1970s, must surely be one of the unsung 'heroes of the waterways' as he not only managed his own fleet of barges based in Selby but also used bye-traders both in the Humber and on Merseyside; he was keen to 're-open the Leeds & Liverpool' as he put it, (as well as the Selby Canal) and put as much tonnage on water as possible.

Another 'hero' has to be our own Derek Bent who continued carrying for BOCM on the L&L through to September1978 when he took 30 tonnes of fish meal from Selby to Manchester - the last load, prior to Ribble's crossing.

As to the problem with the lock gates, that does need investigation. Normally the response teams are very good but as each area has maybe 1000 'notifications' (faults) at any one time they can't be all done (some are very minor of course) and they have to be ranked in order of priority from life threatening (eg a potential breach), a fault which stops traffic (eg Crabtree Lane), then how many users are affected etc and also how many complaints have been received. So it pays to get as many people to report a fault as possible and that will push it up the list, and always to the emergency line (if it is a major problem) or to the waterway office if not.

Regards

David L

Edited October 4, 2016 by fanshaft

[Pluto]

Litherland lift bridge was opened in 1934, the same year that Ribble was built, while Plank Lane swing bridge was replaced by a lift bridge towards the end of the 1970s.

 

Water levels on the L&LC have certainly been lowered because of leakage, though this is probably only of concern for loaded boats, the canal being built with an approximate five foot depth. The bye-wash weirs had removable wooden boards which lock keepers could remove to lower the level when there was a risk of flooding due to weather conditions. The wind alone could create a six or eight inch difference between the two ends of the Liverpool Pool - they were Pools, not Pounds, on the L&LC. Most of these wooden boards have now disappeared as levels have been lowered, and in one case, the top of Bank Newton, the stonework of the ye-wash weir itself has been lowered. Marton Pool runs through limestone country, and always had leakage problems, the level being lowered to reduce this, though I cannot think otherwise than it is a retrograde step in the long term, and that leakage should be addressed, though who thinks in the longer term today.

 

Lock gates also need sorting out, and the problems, to some extent, result from the recent part standardisation of design. The L&LC had four workshops producing gates, and they all had their own detail differences. I wrote a report some years ago for BW on surviving lock gate drawings - they were mainly from railway-controlled canals as they could use the railway drawing offices - so that some idea of the variations between canals could be identified and maintained, though I don't think much happened beyond my report. I do feel that the variations between different canals need to be preserved, as they can be used for marketing each individual canal, encouraging people to visit other areas and to see something different. If they all become the same, there is less reason for going to other canals.

 

On 'Heroes of the Waterways', David also needs to be recognised for his long commitment to viable water transport on the larger waterways of the north east, as well as the L&LC and elsewhere.

[fanshaft]

Litherland lift bridge was opened in 1934, the same year that Ribble was built, while Plank Lane swing bridge was replaced by a lift bridge towards the end of the 1970s.

 

Water levels on the L&LC have certainly been lowered because of leakage, though this is probably only of concern for loaded boats, the canal being built with an approximate five foot depth. The bye-wash weirs had removable wooden boards which lock keepers could remove to lower the level when there was a risk of flooding due to weather conditions. The wind alone could create a six or eight inch difference between the two ends of the Liverpool Pool - they were Pools, not Pounds, on the L&LC. Most of these wooden boards have now disappeared as levels have been lowered, and in one case, the top of Bank Newton, the stonework of the ye-wash weir itself has been lowered. Marton Pool runs through limestone country, and always had leakage problems, the level being lowered to reduce this, though I cannot think otherwise than it is a retrograde step in the long term, and that leakage should be addressed, though who thinks in the longer term today.

 

Lock gates also need sorting out, and the problems, to some extent, result from the recent part standardisation of design. The L&LC had four workshops producing gates, and they all had their own detail differences. I wrote a report some years ago for BW on surviving lock gate drawings - they were mainly from railway-controlled canals as they could use the railway drawing offices - so that some idea of the variations between canals could be identified and maintained, though I don't think much happened beyond my report. I do feel that the variations between different canals need to be preserved, as they can be used for marketing each individual canal, encouraging people to visit other areas and to see something different. If they all become the same, there is less reason for going to other canals.

 

On 'Heroes of the Waterways', David also needs to be recognised for his long commitment to viable water transport on the larger waterways of the north east, as well as the L&LC and elsewhere.

 

Mike,

That is really kind of you and much appreciated! I'm still doing what I can where I can.

Very interesting comments on pool levels etc. Today the pool above Wigan about 6 inches down - I will certainly be asking the question as it seems a tad excessive notwithstanding the question of water supply etc. The lock keeper said the pool can be down even 9 inches and that 6 inches down was actually quite good. The going at 3 ft 1 inch draft was a bit slow and muddy in places but we didn't catch the bottom anywhere between Wigan and Adlington where I had to catch a train.

Ribble will be unloaded of all its cargo of sand at Rose Grove, hopefully Friday, then await the celebration flotilla led by Kennet which leaves Leeds on Saturday 15th of course.

On the Yorkshire side the weir boards were put back at my request when I started running up to Shipley at four foot draft and as far as I can remember the only one removed (and only recently) is that above Hirst Lock due, it is said, to excessive leakage. I remember the one being put on at Field Locks by the very helpful foreman. I had to phone him up to tell him the water was on the towpath at Junction Bridge Shipley. He said 'Ah, I got that a bit wrong then'! That's why the top is sloping, planed off to suit. (Not a board as such more a permanent piece of timber).

Kind regards

David