Leaving gates open

[MtB]

One or two of the locks near Cowroast used to have please leave empty signs on them. I believe this is because of leakage into the lock cottage.

I think the lock cottages had been sold off so surely its just tough luck you live by a lock and are affected in one way or another by that lock - do you also want boaters to proceed silently and only in daytime ?

 

Its not up to me to empty the lock after going up it just to prevent a dribble into someone's cellar. IMO

 

Another problem with 'leave a bottom gate paddle up to ensure lock is emptied' is that there will be someone along who doesn't notice it and attempts to fill the lock

 

 

I may be wrong and it may be lock wall stability but that should be explained - by emptying the lock behind me am I protecting a communal amenity which I personally value or someone else's private property ?

 

 

I'm sure there are a few here who would say you are free to ignore those signs. After all, CRT are obliged to issue you with a license regardless of whether you comply with their 'illegal' terms and conditions.

[nicknorman]

One or two of the locks near Cowroast used to have please leave empty signs on them. I believe this is because of leakage into the lock cottage.

I think the lock cottages had been sold off so surely its just tough luck you live by a lock and are affected in one way or another by that lock - do you also want boaters to proceed silently and only in daytime ?

Its not up to me to empty the lock after going up it just to prevent a dribble into someone's cellar. IMO

Another problem with 'leave a bottom gate paddle up to ensure lock is emptied' is that there will be someone along who doesn't notice it and attempts to fill the lock

I may be wrong and it may be lock wall stability but that should be explained - by emptying the lock behind me am I protecting a communal amenity which I personally value or someone else's private property ?

Firstly, I'd agree that leaving a paddle open is a bad idea. You should drain the lock and then close the paddles for the reasons you give. Yes it might slow your average speed from 3mph to 2.99mph but does that really matter?

 

Secondly, if lots of people decided they weren't going to comply, the house owner would kick up a fuss and no doubt if it came to the crunch, could win an injunction against CRT such that, for example, the locks were mostly closed and only opened when CRT a staff were in attendance. Now that really would slow folk down!

[alan_fincher]

Its not up to me to empty the lock after going up it just to prevent a dribble into someone's cellar. IMO

 

Dribble ??!!??

 

Then the Cow Roast cottages were BW owned, and my brother Pete was the resident BW lock keeper/lengthman tenanted to one of these cottages, then his basement was only accessible by "wellies" (with long legs!) if the lock had been left full overnight.

 

I have no idea to what extent any grouting operations have improved things since though?

 

The new policy for all "leave empty" locks on that length (down to those at Cassiobury at least) is that there should be more permanent signage saying not only what to do, but to also explain the reasons. Unfortunately roll out of these new signs has been painfully slow, and they also convinced themselves that they are only needed at one end of the lock, wheras they really do need to be at both.

 

Obviously it would be better if all the locks where this is considered necessary get fixed, but that may never happen I suspect. In the meantime we have pressed for signs that give best chance of what CRT wanting to happen actually happens, with an explanation of why it is required.

 

If you have strong thoughts on the matter, I urge to to write to South East Waterways setting them out.

[MtB]

 

Dribble ??!!??

 

Then the Cow Roast cottages were BW owned, and my brother Pete was the resident BW lock keeper/lengthman tenanted to one of these cottages, then his basement was only accessible by "wellies" (with long legs!) if the lock had been left full overnight.

 

 

I'm surprised the usual BW/CRTstyle of response was not applied here. Declare the cellar out of service!

[magnetman]

Thanks for the dribble correctiin Alan.

 

My post was a bit of a rant sorry !

[alan_fincher]

Firstly, I'd agree that leaving a paddle open is a bad idea. You should drain the lock and then close the paddles for the reasons you give. Yes it might slow your average speed from 3mph to 2.99mph but does that really matter?

 

No the paddles have to be left drawn at many of the locks involved.

 

Southern Grand Union locks are designed without by-washes, and any excess water from the upper pound overspils into top gate paddle sluices, and runs into the lock.

 

Provided the bottom gates seal fairly well, in many cases this results in an empty lock with all gates shut quickly refilling. This particular the case on much of this stretch where rivers flow in and out, and excess water is common.

 

If the aim is, (as it is in most cases) to address leakage though lock walls, then unless a paddle is left drawn, emptying the lock but leaving bottom gates closed and paddles down fails to achieve what it is trying to achieve,

 

(Anybody who doesn't spot that a paddle is fully drawn at one end of an empty lock before they draw those at the other end is probably going to cause frequent problems wherewever they are!)

[magnetman]

Firstly, I'd agree that leaving a paddle open is a bad idea. You should drain the lock and then close the paddles for the reasons you give. Yes it might slow your average speed from 3mph to 2.99mph but does that really matter?

 

Secondly, if lots of people decided they weren't going to comply, the house owner would kick up a fuss and no doubt if it came to the crunch, could win an injunction against CRT such that, for example, the locks were mostly closed and only opened when CRT a staff were in attendance. Now that really would slow folk down!

That's a scary thought

[alan_fincher]

As a kind of irrelevant aside, I'm wondering what Nick means by "average speed" here?

 

If it includes time to work the locks, 2.99 mph would be eye wateringly fast, (well impossible, actually!).

 

As the locks come about every half mile on average, you invariably spend significantly more time in them or waiting for them, than you ever do moving between them.

 

In recent years, going flat out, (other than past the many moored boats, of course!), I doubt I have ever even made anything like 2mph as an average speed, if you take average to include locking time.

[magnetman]

He"s got a Hudson they are fast innit

And probably uses it on narrow canals

[Tam & Di]

Firstly, I'd agree that leaving a paddle open is a bad idea. You should drain the lock and then close the paddles for the reasons you give. Yes it might slow your average speed from 3mph to 2.99mph but does that really matter?

 

I'd assumed you to be a person operating with some degree of common sense and self-determination, but I appear to be mistaken. You are giving the impression of someone who would rather be given a rigid set of rules which must be obeyed come what. It may be that your experience of canals is limited to some small sample of those operated by CRT, but you seem happy to ignore all instances where even CRT make exceptions to the "close all gates and lower all paddles" dictum, and also those other navigations where there is no such rule/recommendation.

[nicknorman]

I'd assumed you to be a person operating with some degree of common sense and self-determination, but I appear to be mistaken. You are giving the impression of someone who would rather be given a rigid set of rules which must be obeyed come what. It may be that your experience of canals is limited to some small sample of those operated by CRT, but you seem happy to ignore all instances where even CRT make exceptions to the "close all gates and lower all paddles" dictum, and also those other navigations where there is no such rule/recommendation.

Not at all. If you had read my posts on the subject you would see that I have repeatedly said that closing gates is all about water conservation and thus doesn't apply to canalised rivers, so I am only giving you that impression because you haven't read what I have written. Sorry about that but there's not much I can do about it. Of course there are plenty of waterways where it is not normal practice to close up behind but I suggest that these will primarily be canalised rivers.

 

Anyway it is to some extent about a "rigid set of rules" since this sort of thing is the basis for a civilised society. If each individual is to make their own judgements about the right and wrong thing to do then some will make the right decisions (in your opinion) and some won't. It is another name for anarchy and personally I'm not an anarchist.

 

I'll grant you that "rules are made to be broken" and of course there are times when exceptions need to be made. But the predominant point is that if everyone follows the rules even if they are very superior and know full well that the rules shouldn't really apply to them, then the world goes round smoother and nobody is upset or despised. As I said, that is human nature at work.

[Geo]

I don't cruise canals very often but I always understood that unless otherwise signed lock gates should always be shut on canals after use. The only problem with that is signing needs to be easily seen, readable and visible to the boat helm as well as the shore crew. The helm is the responsible person and it is down to the helm to observe the local requirements.

 

Mind you going through 16 locks the other day on the GU about 30% had either top or bottom gates that it took two to shut, some were very loath to move. So maybe there is a reason why some people give up and leave them open. A lot of the problems appear to me to be lack of or poor maintenance, but others more experience will know if this is correct.

[alan_fincher]

Mind you going through 16 locks the other day on the GU about 30% had either top or bottom gates that it took two to shut, some were very loath to move. So maybe there is a reason why some people give up and leave them open. A lot of the problems appear to me to be lack of or poor maintenance, but others more experience will know if this is correct.

 

Many gates on the GU are badly hung or otherwise badly balanced, and you are correct that quite a few are a devils own job to leave closed as you try and move away from them.

 

If you are a regular user you get to know which simply never stay shut, and hence will not try more than once, (or, in the most obvious cases, not at all). The top gates at some of the locks in thick of the Stoke Bruerne flight are an example of this.

 

Others are virtually impossible to leave shut on a windy day. For example locks in the Buckby flight with a narrow bridge at the tail, that helps funnel the force of the wind against those gates. On occasions we have had to resort to roping gates there together by the handrails to hold them long enough to get top paddles open when working through,

 

Also the bigger and heavier the boat, in my experience, the more likely it is that its movement will disturb gates that have been closed as you attempt to move away. Certainly we find it harder to keep gates shut moving away from the locks with a 72 foot ex working boat than we tended to with a relatively light draughted 50 foot modern build leisure boat.

 

So yes, absolutely, not everybody who fails to leave gates shut is being deliberately obtuse.

[magnetman]

I think that's true.

 

One point I always bear in mind is that If I am not prepared to open and close every single gate (I boat "single handed") then perhaps its better not to be boating on the cut.

 

This applies to closing up afterwards and also to opening gates people have previously closed &c

 

If one is not happy to do all the potentially required work then maybe canal boating is the wrong activity. Any time gates are left open (or closed) in my favour it is just a bonus really

 

I am not a gate closer overall I tend to leave them open unless there is bad leakage but I only go on wide canals now as I no longer have a narrow boat.

[Phoenix_V]

The Thames Locks are not cleaned as a result of one Lock keeper not wearing Goggles while he was cleaning his lock chamber

 

He had to go to A and E to have the caustic soda solution washed from his eyes

 

Health and safety Bods decided to ban the lock cleaning about 20 years ago

 

Have a greenie for your post

 

CT

Thanks for the greenie, interesting the reason given for leaving their locks in the state they now are I would have thought a pressure washer would suffice if they no longer want to use caustic but so often these things are just an excuse and the real reason dare i suggest was to save money?

I wonder how many more accidents have been caused by people slipping on the now ultra slppery lock stairs.

[Scholar Gypsy]

Thanks for the greenie, interesting the reason given for leaving their locks in the state they now are I would have thought a pressure washer would suffice if they no longer want to use caustic but so often these things are just an excuse and the real reason dare i suggest was to save money?

I wonder how many more accidents have been caused by people slipping on the now ultra slppery lock stairs.

 

good point - especially as I think the stairs on Thames locks are solid brick/stone? By contrast others I have seen (eg Papermill Lock in St Neots) the staircase is made from steel gridwork, much less slippy.

[MtB]

Did they ever use caustic soda for cleaning lock walls on a regular basis? How did they stop it getting in the water and killing a fish?

[Geo]

 

Many gates on the GU are badly hung or otherwise badly balanced, and you are correct that quite a few are a devils own job to leave closed as you try and move away from them.

 

If you are a regular user you get to know which simply never stay shut, and hence will not try more than once, (or, in the most obvious cases, not at all). The top gates at some of the locks in thick of the Stoke Bruerne flight are an example of this.

 

Others are virtually impossible to leave shut on a windy day. For example locks in the Buckby flight with a narrow bridge at the tail, that helps funnel the force of the wind against those gates. On occasions we have had to resort to roping gates there together by the handrails to hold them long enough to get top paddles open when working through,

 

Also the bigger and heavier the boat, in my experience, the more likely it is that its movement will disturb gates that have been closed as you attempt to move away. Certainly we find it harder to keep gates shut moving away from the locks with a 72 foot ex working boat than we tended to with a relatively light draughted 50 foot modern build leisure boat.

 

So yes, absolutely, not everybody who fails to leave gates shut is being deliberately obtuse.

 

Alan, I think you have misread my post. I was talking about gates that were too stiff to be shut by one person not gates that float shut and then wander open. Much prefer the latter

[alan_fincher]

 

Alan, I think you have misread my post. I was talking about gates that were too stiff to be shut by one person not gates that float shut and then wander open. Much prefer the latter

 

Ah, I have never encountered one of those. And I work my locks hampered by both a long standing hip injury and a more recent shoulder injury.

 

Clearly some people are weaker than me, but on the whole when I see people struggling with gates it is at least as much down to a lack of technique as it is down to lack of overall strength, by my observation.

[cereal tiller]

Did they ever use caustic soda for cleaning lock walls on a regular basis? How did they stop it getting in the water and killing a fish?

Yes,that is why they used to look pristine,rinsed off with a Hose afterwards.

 

A Pressure washer would cause damage if used on a weekly basis

 

CT

[Geo]

 

Ah, I have never encountered one of those. And I work my locks hampered by both a long standing hip injury and a more recent shoulder injury.

 

Clearly some people are weaker than me, but on the whole when I see people struggling with gates it is at least as much down to a lack of technique as it is down to lack of overall strength, by my observation.

 

In a set of 7 locks the other day my crew who is well experience could not move 3 of the bottom nearside gates to close it. I had to get off the boat and use my 16 stone, but even that only just worked. I had to rock the gates to them moving but even when moving they took all my strength

[alan_fincher]

 

In a set of 7 locks the other day my crew who is well experience could not move 3 of the bottom nearside gates to close it. I had to get off the boat and use my 16 stone, but even that only just worked. I had to rock the gates to them moving but even when moving they took all my strength

 

Strange news.

 

Presumably either Buckby or Stoke Bruerne? (I can't believe it would be Marsworth!).

 

Admittedly there are some tough ones, (particularly at Buckby) but we have worked both flights recently, and none that either of us could not easily get moving on our own.

 

I do see people that look a lot stronger than us finding it much harder, but when I observe their technique I can often understand why.

 

 

[Geo]

 

Strange news.

 

Presumably either Buckby or Stoke Bruerne? (I can't believe it would be Marsworth!).

 

Admittedly there are some tough ones, (particularly at Buckby) but we have worked both flights recently, and none that either of us could not easily get moving on our own.

 

I do see people that look a lot stronger than us finding it much harder, but when I observe their technique I can often understand why.

 

 

 

Well that day 18 locks were done and only three refused to move for my crew and were very heavy for me.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Geo

[GUMPY]

 

Ah, I have never encountered one of those. And I work my locks hampered by both a long standing hip injury and a more recent shoulder injury.

 

Clearly some people are weaker than me, but on the whole when I see people struggling with gates it is at least as much down to a lack of technique as it is down to lack of overall strength, by my observation.

Can you explain to my wife how she can pick up this technique?

There have been several bottom gates on this trip (leicester ring starting from Hemel) that I have had to get off the boat to do them for her, and that excludes the ones I help shut with propwash.

In my opinion gates are far harder to close than they ever been in my boating life. Also paddles especially between Foxton and Leicester have been in the worst condition I have ever come across.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Loddon