Boat won't start.

[Paul C]

You can get the relevant voltmeter readings by making up a suitable wire/terminals and/or using crocodile clips on the multimeter probes.

[Laurie Booth]

 

So even with a fresh jump battery the engine is still turning over slowly. I'm assuming the wiring is now been double checked and is correctly terminated. If the thing is actually turning the engine over it would indicate to me that the solenoid is working (actuating) but maybe high resistance. It could also be a duff starter.

You might be right, hope it is not a new starter required.

[Laurie Booth]

Do you have an isolator on that battery? If so, turn it off and on again several times. Could be dirty.

I don't think I have an isolator.

I have one of those, it wouldn't start a moped! It is really just a torch with a big battery.

Instructions on mine say connect to starter battery then leave for at least 10 minutes before trying to crank.

I have used it to start my engine when the starter battery failed.

[Laurie Booth]

Laurie, going for the cheap and bleedin' obvious.

 

Disconnect the leads to the new batteries.

Thoroughly clean the battery posts and the connectors on the ends of the cables.

 

Put them back on and give them both a gentle tap with a thump'ometer to ensure a good connection. Also check the cables are soundly attached to the cables. It sounds like a dry connection to me.

 

Alternatively give the starter motor a whack with something wooden like the end of a shaft.

 

Those starter packs are a con. If you take one apart you'll be shocked at the tiny cell inside, there's no way it's going to turn over a diesel with the compression involved.

I will do as you have suggested, I'm not on the boat now as I had to go home. The jump starter has worked in the past, when my starter battery failed. Hitting the starter is something I will try as that worked on my 1932 Austin 7

It could be the low tension lead between the ignition switch and the starter motor. Remove the thin wire with a spade connector from the back of the starter motor. Use a screwdriver or chisel to make a connection between the now exposed terminal and the post to which the thick red cable is attached, taking care not to touch the engine, gearbox or boat metal at the same time. Let us know what happens.

Not sure how to do as you suggested, me being a bit nervous.

This is what happens when you get a modern engine they all go wrong. I would take off all the wires except the main live and get a wire direct from battery to the starter solenoid if it dont start there is either the main power or the solenoid if it works the tace the wires back

Sounds good to me, I could put my jump starter straight onto the starter, worth a try.

To shut my engine off, I have a pull knob which has to be manually returned. A few months back, my brother was having a driving day and I let him do everything, including shutting off the engine at the end of the day. When I went back the following week, the engine would turn over, but not fire up. I scratched my head, checked the batteries, did everything I could think of, in the end, I left it!! When talking to a friend who know far more than me, he suggested it might be the 'stop' knob. Anyway, when I went back, sure enough, brother had pulled the knob up, but not returned it.

 

Bit long winded, but have you got something similar?

I know what you are saying, sadly that is not the problem, engine will not turn over and the starter goes click click......

[Paul C]

Its more than likely you've introduced a dodgy connection, or inadvertently broken an existing good wire or connection. I am personally amazed your starter battery doesn't have an isolator, though.

[Laurie Booth]

 

 

 

Laurie said in his first post "the voltmeter dropped" and if it dropped to more than 10 volts that rules the above out. If it only dropped a fraction then the above is still ruled out because the starter would not turn the engine over.

 

Now I know I must sound like a broken record but once again we need the voltage readings asked for.

 

If the voltage dropped to below 10 volts then it will NOT be the lead between ignition switch and solenoid so we can probably rule that one out.

 

If the voltage did drop that far then we are looking at (in no particular order) short in starter, seized engine or starter, bad connection, faulty master switch, or faulty battery. As this is so close to the battery change we must start by looking at something directly related to that job - dirty or loose battery terminals (as others have said) or a loosened, misplaced or left disconnected lead.However we must remember it could be a faulty battery (the jump starter is a toy for petrol engines and even then probably of marginal practical use).

 

If the cranking voltage on the lead battery posts drops to below about 10 volts it is likely to be a flat or faulty battery or a shorting starter/seize3d engine. All Laurie can do is to feel eh starter body and cables they will be hot if its a short. Then try turning the engine over by hand to make sure it is not seized.

 

then measure the open circuit (not cranking) voltage and estimate the state of charge from that. If it shows more than about 50% charged then I would be very suspicious of the new battery. If he has the resources it may then be an idea to put it on charge for several hours and repeat.

 

If the cranking voltage on the posts remains above about 10 volts but drops when measured on the terminals then its indicates loose or dirty battery clamp to post connection.

 

If the cranking voltage at the clamps remains above about 10 volts under cranking then the clamps are OK so repeat between the engine block and main battery connection on the solenoid. The cranking voltage should be more or less the same if it drops then look for poor cable crimps on the main leads, loose/dirty earth on the engine block/starter, undersized cables or faulty master switch.

 

I could go on listing each step of the diagnostic procedure but see little point in wasting my time if the voltage readings I asked for can not be produced.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your input, but I have very limited skills.

[Laurie Booth]

 

 

Lorry, can you lassoo an unsuspecting passer-by to turn the key for you perhaps? Or even press gang the Mrs into helping?

 

Without this information there is little more anyone can do to help short of turning up with a multimeter and measuring these voltages with you.

Where are you?

Where are you?

I have worked out a way of measuring the 3 batteries as I have 3 volt meters which I can connect to the 3 batteries. I'm at home at the moment in Stroud but my boat is at Lady Lane Wharf on the North Stratford Canal. My wife is to worried to help and I'm out of lassoos .

I was trying to start a friend’s boat once but failed so jumpstarted from domestic bats. Told her that the battery seemed dead and she would maybe need a new one. It turned out that it had an electronic isolator on both engine and domestic battery banks as well as manual and the engine one had been switched off by accident. Do you have similar?

I have an isolator switch that turns off all the electrics.

Its more than likely you've introduced a dodgy connection, or inadvertently broken an existing good wire or connection. I am personally amazed your starter battery doesn't have an isolator, though.

I have an isolator switch that turns off all the electrics.

I hope I have answered everyone's posts.

[16csvt]

Laurie, I have PM'd you.

 

Kevin

[Laurie Booth]

Laurie, I have PM'd you.

 

Kevin

Message received

[Bod]

Make sure that when you return to the boat, the jump starter is fully charged.

The symptoms you discribe, could be down to not only a flat starter battery, but also a flat jump starter.

Once the engine is running, keep it running at a fast idle for at least 3/4 of a hour.

 

Bod

[WotEver]

I have an isolator switch that turns off all the electrics.

 

I have an isolator switch that turns off all the electrics.

Turn it off and on again a few times.

 

Turn it off and on again a few times.

 

[Laurie Booth]

Make sure that when you return to the boat, the jump starter is fully charged.

The symptoms you discribe, could be down to not only a flat starter battery, but also a flat jump starter.

Once the engine is running, keep it running at a fast idle for at least 3/4 of a hour.

 

Bod

The starter battery is reading 13.5 volts and the jump starter 12.5 volts.

Turn it off and on again a few times.

 

Turn it off and on again a few times.

 

Worth a try

[MtB]

Laurie, pound to a penny the fault was introduced when changing the battery. Think carefully about everything you touched or disturbed, you are looking for a poor connection. Poor connections get hot during the slow cranking so crank over for ten or fifteen seconds then nip down and feel all the battery and starter motor connections and wires. If you find a hot one, you're on the right track.

 

Its highly unlikely that you need a new starter motor.

The starter battery is reading 13.5 volts and the jump starter 12.5 volts.

Worth a try

 

 

Well that's good news, suggests its charged properly. The crucial voltage however is what it measures during cranking. I'd expect it to drop to perhaps 10.5v roughly. If it drops more than that your new battery is duff. If it hardly drops at all during cranking then you have a poor wiring connection.

[Tony Brooks]

Or any cables renewing etc.

 

You do NOT need three voltmeters. Two possibly if you want to try to take two simultaneous readings but I would use one and make two measurements. You may have three batteries but two of those are domestic batteries and at present they are not under suspicion. You need to concentrate on the single starting battery.

 

The jump starter is perhaps three quarters charged. The reading for the start battery is meaningless in this context because if you want to find out what is really going on you need "under load" voltages, that is when the starter is or trying to crank however hard you may find it to take. The 13.5 volts suggests that there is surface charge present and is possibly well charged, certainly well enough to start the engine but its says nothing about any faulty lead burning inside the battery, you need lots of amps flowing to find that (and I am in no way suggesting that is the problem, only an outside possibility that needs testing for).

 

I hope 16csvt has offered to come and help you do the tests, regrettably I am too far away but if you feel confident enough to change batteries the skill required to set a multimeter to the 20 volts scale, put the black lead in the black hole on the meter or the one marked COM and the red in the hole with a V next to it, push one probe/clip onto one lead post scraping it about to get a good connection and the other clip/probe on the other post is pretty minimal. You do not even have to worry about polarity because the meter will just give a minus reading if you get it wrong.

 

By all means try what WotEver said and I would go further and say if the isolator/master switch has a plastic key take the key out, screw up a small ball of paper or tinfoil, drop down the key hole and refit the key - AS A TEMPORARY TEST.

 

What Mike says about feeling for heat is also valid but may not find a fault within the battery (hence the need for voltage readings).

 

A lot of the other well meaning suggestions are not supported by your stated symptoms so at this stage are best disregarded.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Just in case a prat wired the boat. Normally the engine battery negative is connected directly to the engine/hull earth point and then the domestic negative is connected to the engine negative battery terminal so you have two thick cables on the engine battery negative terminal. Electrically it would work the same if it was done the other way round with the engine negative running to the domestic negative and the domestic negative being connected to the engine/hull earth. However if its done this way you could have a loose connection on the domestic negative that could cause your symptoms while logic tells one to concentrate on just the engine battery connections.

 

So have a look at where the thick lead on the engine battery negative runs. If its the domestic battery you need to check all the domestic negative connections to ensure each negative link lead is properly connected.

[Laurie Booth]

Laurie, pound to a penny the fault was introduced when changing the battery. Think carefully about everything you touched or disturbed, you are looking for a poor connection. Poor connections get hot during the slow cranking so crank over for ten or fifteen seconds then nip down and feel all the battery and starter motor connections and wires. If you find a hot one, you're on the right track.

 

Its highly unlikely that you need a new starter motor.

 

 

Well that's good news, suggests its charged properly. The crucial voltage however is what it measures during cranking. I'd expect it to drop to perhaps 10.5v roughly. If it drops more than that your new battery is duff. If it hardly drops at all during cranking then you have a poor wiring connection.

When I changed the batteries I started the engine with no problem at all but there is no harm in checking for a bad connection. When I last tried starting the engine the starter went "Click Click Click..." with the volt meter on the instrument panel dropping to about 4 volts. But I don't know which batteries the volt meter is reading.

[MtB]

When I changed the batteries I started the engine with no problem at all but there is no harm in checking for a bad connection. When I last tried starting the engine the starter went "Click Click Click..." with the volt meter on the instrument panel dropping to about 4 volts. But I don't know which batteries the volt meter is reading.

 

 

I'd overlooked your comment that initially the engine started fine once, after fitting the new battery.

 

The 4v reading is a helpful indicator. It tells us that the voltage going to the voltmeter is 4v and this is likely to be the same voltage as is arriving at the starter motor. It doesn't help narrow down the fault - other than to say it MUST be a failed new battery or a poor connection so we can proably rule out a faulty stater motor. 4v at the starter motor would give exactly the symptoms you describe.

 

I bet the volt meter didn't read 4v the one time the engine started, but I doubt you were looking at it.

 

My money is still on a poor battery connection.

[Laurie Booth]

Or any cables renewing etc.

 

You do NOT need three voltmeters. Two possibly if you want to try to take two simultaneous readings but I would use one and make two measurements. You may have three batteries but two of those are domestic batteries and at present they are not under suspicion. You need to concentrate on the single starting battery.

 

The jump starter is perhaps three quarters charged. The reading for the start battery is meaningless in this context because if you want to find out what is really going on you need "under load" voltages, that is when the starter is or trying to crank however hard you may find it to take. The 13.5 volts suggests that there is surface charge present and is possibly well charged, certainly well enough to start the engine but its says nothing about any faulty lead burning inside the battery, you need lots of amps flowing to find that (and I am in no way suggesting that is the problem, only an outside possibility that needs testing for).

 

I hope 16csvt has offered to come and help you do the tests, regrettably I am too far away but if you feel confident enough to change batteries the skill required to set a multimeter to the 20 volts scale, put the black lead in the black hole on the meter or the one marked COM and the red in the hole with a V next to it, push one probe/clip onto one lead post scraping it about to get a good connection and the other clip/probe on the other post is pretty minimal. You do not even have to worry about polarity because the meter will just give a minus reading if you get it wrong.

 

By all means try what WotEver said and I would go further and say if the isolator/master switch has a plastic key take the key out, screw up a small ball of paper or tinfoil, drop down the key hole and refit the key - AS A TEMPORARY TEST.

 

What Mike says about feeling for heat is also valid but may not find a fault within the battery (hence the need for voltage readings).

 

A lot of the other well meaning suggestions are not supported by your stated symptoms so at this stage are best disregarded.

 

 

I haven't got a multimeter but I will put a volt meter on the starter battery and see what happens when engine is cranked. I can't think that it is an isolator switch problem as all the electrics work in the boat.

Thanks for your suggestions

PS

I'm waiting to hear from 16csvt at the moment.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Laurie.Booth

[Laurie Booth]

 

 

I'd overlooked your comment that initially the engine started fine once, after fitting the new battery.

 

The 4v reading is a helpful indicator. It tells us that the voltage going to the voltmeter is 4v and this is likely to be the same voltage as is arriving at the starter motor. It doesn't help narrow down the fault - other than to say it MUST be a failed new battery or a poor connection so we can proably rule out a faulty stater motor. 4v at the starter motor would give exactly the symptoms you describe.

 

I bet the volt meter didn't read 4v the one time the engine started, but I doubt you were looking at it.

 

My money is still on a poor battery connection.

I did look at the volt meter when I first started the engine (I always do) and it dropped to about 10 volts or so, as it always does. I think you must be right about the bad connection (I hope). I don't think it's a faulty battery as that would mean my jump starter has failed as well. I'll check it all out next time I'm on the boat, hopefully Monday.

[MtB]

I took one of those jump starters apart a few weeks ago (to get the battery). It was a sealed AGM type motorcycle battery rated at 10AH IIRC.

 

I think it would struggle to start your BMC 1.5 alone, but in parallel with even a tired or dying proper starter battery it should make the difference between the engine starting and not starting.

 

As an idea, when you get to the boat try clipping the jump starter leads on further out from the battery. Follow the wires from the battery and clip onto the far ends... If it sorts it out, you'll know there is a poor connection nearer the batt...

[Tony Brooks]

Ideally you would have two master/isolator switches. Both in the positive leads, one for the domestic battery and one for the engine battery so a faulty engine battery isolator would not cause problems for the domestic electrics.

 

You might have a single isolator in the negative serving both systems but even then the fact that the domestic system appears to be working does not rule a master switch problem out. The starter motor draws several tens of times more current that a typical domestic system unless a large inverter is involved.

 

Remember you need two readings, both under cranking. One on the actual lead battery posts and one on the clamps/terminal but I find it hard to envisage what type of voltmeter you have that will resolve the difference between 9 and 10 volts it it not some kind of multimeter or a very ancient lab type voltmeter.

 

Keep plugging away at the problem, you will be learning and gaining skills all the time.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Tony Brooks

[matty40s]

I had a genuine two pints, I wish that was the problem

Still not working the next day

 

well, the beer wasn't the problem, so go and have another couple....

[Arthur Brown]

Reminds me of the saga of a tour bus. Brand new bus on it's first journey, drives onto cross channel ferry and never starts to get off the ferry, Two journeys later there is a tow truck to pull it off and a spare coach to take the passengers onward. Fault diagnosed eventually as two washers on the power bus (24v) put on in the wrong order. The full entertainment system current via the inverter had drawn current from the alternator en route, but running from the battery in the loading queue had melted the steel spring washer that should have been a pure copper washer on the main power stud, hence the starter wouldn't turn to get the bus off the boat.

 

Almost certainly while changing batteries something has got in the current path that shouldn't be there, steel washer? dirty contacts? etc? OR something has been omitted from the reconnection that was connected before.

[zenataomm]

Laurie .....

 

You may remember I'm in Lincoln, but if you get really stuck give me a shout and I'll load my tools and meet you there.

I'm not working so I can find the time.

 

Jeremy

[Laurie Booth]

Laurie .....

 

You may remember I'm in Lincoln, but if you get really stuck give me a shout and I'll load my tools and meet you there.

I'm not working so I can find the time.

 

Jeremy

Very kind of you Jeremy

 

16csvt is coming tomorrow (Monday) to look at my system (or lack of it). Thanks for all the posts so far, I will report back Tuesday and give you all an update.

 

Fingers crossed

 

 

Laurie