Trent tide times

[adam1uk]

We're hoping to do part of the tidal Trent next month, between Cromwell Lock and Torksey, and back.

 

To help with planning, at what point of the tide is it best to leave Cromwell Lock? Are there tide tables for Cromwell Lock, or it is a matter of using one for further along the river and adding x hours?

 

And on the return, what point of the tide would we need to leave Torksey?

[Alan de Enfield]

The charts show what 'time' to add or deduct to give you the times at Cromwell.

 

Leave Cromwell as the tide turns onto the ebb and let it take you all the way to Torksey.

 

Wait at Torksey for the Flood to arrive and let it take you all the way to Cromwell.

 

You will need to purchase the chart (The Tidal Trent) as it shows you all of the shallows / sandbanks and 'danger' areas which are not always where you expect them.

Friends of ours were on the way to Lincoln to attend a wedding, they "poo-pood" the idea of using charts and ended up stuck on a sandbank for two-tides and missed the wedding.

 

Ensure you have a suitable anchor and a minimum of 60 feet of chain.

A VHF radio is very helpful both as a convenience (call up the Lockies and the gates are open as you arrive) and as a safety measure.

 

The Flood arrives at Torksey approximately 1 hr 45 min after HW Hull

The Ebb starts at Cromwell 5 hours after HW Hull

 

Tony Dunkley may be along soon with more useful (and accurate) stuff.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

Pretty much what Alan says. There can be a slight issue with getting over the cill at Torksey but it depends on the type of tide - a big spring tide will give plenty of water over the cill I think even at local low water, whereas a small neap tide may make it impossible to get over the cill for quite a while around low water. However this is not a disaster, there are good pontoon moorings in the cut below the lock where you can wait it out. Obviously the amount of fresh water make a difference too but I think at the moment that is not much?

 

I say all this whilst being too lazy to look up the tide height and times myself, but if it transpires that leaving Cromwell around high water is inconvenient then you can in reality leave any time during the ebb (which lasts much, much longer than the flood) and even if you then arrive at Torksey unable to get over the cill, it doesn't really matter.

 

For leaving Torksey I would certainly try to go up on the flood, which doesn't last long but of course seems to last longer if you are travelling up with it. We managed to get most of the way up to Cromwell before we fell off the flood. It certainly helps to be doing 5.5mph as opposed to 3 mph!

 

There is a handy chart that shows the ebb and flow times at various places along the river, relative to HW hull, I'll try to find it.

 

Ah, here it is:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=78033&p=1617001

Edited August 4, 2016 by nicknorman

[adam1uk]

The charts show what 'time' to add or deduct to give you the times at Cromwell.

 

Leave Cromwell as the tide turns onto the ebb and let it take you all the way to Torksey.

 

Wait at Torksey for the Flood to arrive and let it take you all the way to Cromwell.

 

You will need to purchase the chart (The Tidal Trent) as it shows you all of the shallows / sandbanks and 'danger' areas which are not always where you expect them.

Friends of ours were on the way to Lincoln to attend a wedding, they "poo-pood" the idea of using charts and ended up stuck on a sandbank for two-tides and missed the wedding.

 

Ensure you have a suitable anchor and a minimum of 60 feet of chain.

A VHF radio is very helpful both as a convenience (call up the Lockies and the gates are open as you arrive) and as a safety measure.

 

The Flood arrives at Torksey approximately 1 hr 45 min after HW Hull

The Ebb starts at Cromwell 5 hours after HW Hull

 

Tony Dunkley may be along soon with more useful (and accurate) stuff.

 

Thanks that's very useful.

 

I have already bought the chart, and we have VHF etc.

[Tony Dunkley]

There isn't really much that needs adding to what Alan and Nick have already said, except that for those unfamiliar with the river and who don't know just exactly where the deepest water is, there can be some potential benefit to leaving Cromwell about half an hour before HW at Hull if they're only going as far as Torksey.

 

Leaving Cromwell at this sort of time will mean that it will be easier to judge where the deepest water is relative to either bank/shore due to the shallows drying and baring out, and it will see most boats meeting the Flood just short of Torksey, provided they haven't grounded at [Laneham] Maltkilns where there's a big shoal extending a long way across the river to where the deeper water would normally be expected, from a stream that runs in there.

 

There are two distinct advantages to this, firstly with the river having already run down to about as low as it's going to get on that tide, some of the shoal will be starting to bare out and be visible extending out from the Western shore making it easier to avoid, and secondly if the boat is unlucky enough to ground here or anywhere else, then it won't have long to wait before the Flood floats it off.

 

Leaving Cromwell at around local HW [ Hull HW plus approx. 5 hours] does take a few minutes off the journey time, and save a drop or two of fuel, but with a bit over 10 hours of Ebb and barely 2 hours of Flood this far up the river [Torksey], it does leave the possibility of grounding early on the Ebb with the resulting long wait for the next tide to get you going again.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[nicknorman]

There isn't really much that needs adding to what Alan and Nick have already said, except that for those unfamiliar with the river and who don't know just exactly where the deepest water is, there can be some potential benefit to leaving Cromwell about half an hour before HW at Hull if they're only going as far as Torksey.

 

Leaving Cromwell at this sort of time will mean that it will be easier to judge where the deepest water is relative to either bank/shore due to the shallows drying and baring out, and it will see most boats meeting the Flood just short of Torksey, provided they haven't grounded at [Laneham] Maltkilns where there's a big shoal extending a long way across the river to where the deeper water would normally be expected, from a stream that runs in there.

 

There are two distinct advantages to this, firstly with the river having already run down to about as low as it's going to get on that tide, some of the shoal will be starting to bare out and be visible extending out from the Western shore making it easier to avoid, and secondly if the boat is unlucky enough to ground here or anywhere else, then it won't have long to wait before the Flood floats it off.

 

Leaving Cromwell at around local HW [ Hull HW plus approx. 5 hours] does take a few minutes off the journey time, and save a drop or two of fuel, but with a bit over 10 hours of Ebb and barely 2 hours of Flood this far up the river [Torksey], it does leave the possibility of grounding early on the Ebb with the resulting long wait for the next tide to get you going again.

When we did it, we had the cruising guide that shows the best course, shallows and shoals to avoid etc. We watched another narrowboat follow horrendously bad lines in some places, however it didn't ground so I came to the conclusion that for your average modern leisure narrowboat it would be fairly difficult to go aground. That said we did leave not long after local HW but then again the tidal range doesn't seem to be that much in those upper reaches.

 

A tip I got from somewhere was "follow the stones" since there tend to be stones (mostly on the outside bends) to reduce erosion where there is strong current and hence good depth.

[Alan de Enfield]

I told you Tony would have some useful additions - he has 'worked the Trent' for 'ever' and was Cabin-Boy for Noah when he first took his Ark up there on his way to the Med.

[MoominPapa]

Are the Trent charts available for purchase anywher?. We'll be going from the east end of the Leeds and Liverpool to Keadby over the next few weeks, and it would be easier to buy them from a boatyard or chandlers rather than order online and get them from home to the boat.

 

I know - failing to plan is planning to fail, and all that.

 

MP.

[Alan de Enfield]

The tent lockies used to sell them (I only say 'used to' as I havn't asked them sic I bought ours years ago)

 

Newark Marina an Hull Marina both sell them.

 

Call C&RT Newark office and ask them if the lockies still have them.

[Tim Lewis]

Are the Trent charts available for purchase anywher?. We'll be going from the east end of the Leeds and Liverpool to Keadby over the next few weeks, and it would be easier to buy them from a boatyard or chandlers rather than order online and get them from home to the boat.

 

I know - failing to plan is planning to fail, and all that.

 

MP.

http://theboatingassociation.co.uk/index.php/store/#!/The-Trent-Chart-Series-Chart-No-2-V-11/p/11809307/category=2703498&forcescroll=true

 

Tim

[adam1uk]

Thanks for the info, everyone.

 

http://theboatingassociation.co.uk/index.php/store/#!/The-Trent-Chart-Series-Chart-No-2-V-11/p/11809307/category=2703498&forcescroll=true

Tim

 

I think that probably falls into the order-online-and-then-have-to-get-them-from-home-to-the-boat category, which is what he didn't want!

 

I've cut my chart up and laminated each page, like I did with the Thames guide -- just in case it's a little windy or a bit damp the day we do it.

[Iron-Dutchess]

https://www.tidetimes.org.uk/

 

https://www.tidetimes.org.uk/humber-bridge-tide-times

Edited August 7, 2016 by Iron-Dutchess

[Alan de Enfield]

https://www.tidetimes.org.uk/

 

Useful for identifying tide times at Hull, but not really much help to the OP as it does not give the tide times on the Trent upstream of Owston Ferry, or, answer the questions 'when is the best time to leave'

[adam1uk]

A follow up question, having looked at the tide times.

 

So the flood arrives at Torksey about a hour and three-quarters after HW at Hull. So what's the latest it would be practical to set off from there back to Cromwell? I'm guessing that in September we might be ok leaving at 4pm-ish -- but not much later than that. Alternatively, what's the earliest you can go?

[nicknorman]

A follow up question, having looked at the tide times.

 

So the flood arrives at Torksey about a hour and three-quarters after HW at Hull. So what's the latest it would be practical to set off from there back to Cromwell? I'm guessing that in September we might be ok leaving at 4pm-ish -- but not much later than that. Alternatively, what's the earliest you can go?

I don fully understand the question but you can go whenever you like. That presumes you have already locked down at Torksey and are on the pontoons. Otherwise you are limited by the opening times of the lock and by the amount of water over the cill, which is a variable thing depending on how much fresh water coming down the river and what sort of tide it is.

 

However the flood is short lived so I would want to go as soon as the flood arrives, or even a bit before it. Even then, the flood will have petered out before you get to Cromwell. You are of course also limited by lock opening times at Cromwell but there is a pontoon below the lock.

[Alan de Enfield]

It depends if you are happy on the river in the dark.

In September it is getting dark at 6pm and if its an overcast day it can be earlier - leave on the morning tide and it will at least be light when you get to Cromwell.

 

NOTE

If using the river during the hours of darkness or in bad visibility the use of Navigation lights is mandatory

 

If you are not curtailed by specific dates then go when the tides are 'neaps' (the smallest) as you can go at virtually any state of the tide as long as your engine has a bit of 'poke' and satisfactory cooling.

 

If you can normally achieve 5mph without too much struggle, even with a 2.5kt tide against you, you will be making 2.5mph .

 

Neap tides in September are Sunday 11th high water Hull 01:27 & 14:29 & Sunday 25th with HW Hull at 01:33 & 14:33

 

Sunday 25th you could leave Torksey at (say) 15:30 and arrive at Cromwell before dark.

[nicknorman]

It depends if you are happy on the river in the dark.

In September it is getting dark at 6pm and if its an overcast day it can be earlier - leave on the morning tide and it will at least be light when you get to Cromwell.

 

NOTE

If using the river during the hours of darkness or in bad visibility the use of Navigation lights is mandatory

 

If you are not curtailed by specific dates then go when the tides are 'neaps' (the smallest) as you can go at virtually any state of the tide as long as your engine has a bit of 'poke' and satisfactory cooling.

 

If you can normally achieve 5mph without too much struggle, even with a 2.5kt tide against you, you will be making 2.5mph .

 

Neap tides in September are Sunday 11th high water Hull 01:27 & 14:29 & Sunday 25th with HW Hull at 01:33 & 14:33

 

Sunday 25th you could leave Torksey at (say) 15:30 and arrive at Cromwell before dark.

However neap tides give you a lower water level at local low water at the upper half of the river than you'd get with Spring tides.

[Alan de Enfield]

However neap tides give you a lower water level at local low water at the upper half of the river than you'd get with Spring tides.

 

At low water 'springs' you will have less depth of water than you have at low water 'neaps' - but it is not particularly relevant if you follow the chart guidance.

 

I draw over 4 feet and don't have problems on the river (just hanging about waiting to get into the locks)

Edited August 7, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[adam1uk]

I don't think I'd want to go in the dark.

 

How long should it take to get from Torksey to Cromwell?

[nicknorman]

At low water 'springs' you will have less depth of water than you have at low water 'neaps'

No absolutely the opposite when at the upper part of the river. Of course at the sea/mouth of the river, a spring low is lower than a neap low. But well up river (and lower than Torksey) this changes around and a spring low is higher than a neap low.

[Alan de Enfield]

I don't think I'd want to go in the dark.

 

How long should it take to get from Torksey to Cromwell?

 

Without trying to be 'clever' - how fast do you want to go, or how fast can you go ?

 

Last time we did it (a couple of months ago) we rode on the top of a 2 kt tide for a fair bit of the way. We were achieving about 3 knts thru the water so achieving 5 kts over ground. Once we over ran the tide we kept at 3 knts.

 

It took 3 hours 40 minutes from Torksey pontoon vistors moorings to Cromwell (Topside) vistiors moorings.

Allow (say) 20 minutes for locking so Torksey to Cromwell (bottom lock gates) would be 3 hours 20 minutes.

 

Ideally you want to be top-side to moor. The bottom pontoons are really 'just waiting for the lock gates to open'

 

Check with C&RT or Cromwell lockie what time he will be 'clocking off' (its 9pm in the Summer, but I don't know if they keep the same times in Winter / darkness)

[adam1uk]

 

Without trying to be 'clever' - how fast do you want to go, or how fast can you go ?

 

Last time we did it (a couple of months ago) we rode on the top of a 2 kt tide for a fair bit of the way. We were achieving about 3 knts thru the water so achieving 5 kts over ground. Once we over ran the tide we kept at 3 knts.

 

It took 3 hours 40 minutes from Torksey pontoon vistors moorings to Cromwell (Topside) vistiors moorings.

Allow (say) 20 minutes for locking so Torksey to Cromwell (bottom lock gates) would be 3 hours 20 minutes.

 

Ideally you want to be top-side to moor. The bottom pontoons are really 'just waiting for the lock gates to open'

 

Check with C&RT or Cromwell lockie what time he will be 'clocking off' (its 9pm in the Summer, but I don't know if they keep the same times in Winter / darkness)

 

It's probably not very helpful if I say normal-narrowboat-on-a-tidal-river speed, is it?! Each time we've done the tidal Thames, we've taken exactly the time expected, which is three hours if I remember correctly -- and that was without winding up the revs too much. But I take it to show that while we won't break any records, nor do we pootle along. It's helpful to know it's about three and a half hours, though.

[Tony Dunkley]

A follow up question, having looked at the tide times.

 

So the flood arrives at Torksey about a hour and three-quarters after HW at Hull. So what's the latest it would be practical to set off from there back to Cromwell? I'm guessing that in September we might be ok leaving at 4pm-ish -- but not much later than that. Alternatively, what's the earliest you can go?

 

You can set off any at any time you wish for the journey back upriver from Torksey to Cromwell, but to get the most help possible from the tide it's best to set off 10 - 15 minutes before Flood at Torksey. That will get you as near to Cromwell as possible before the tide fizzles out and you start feeling the effect of the [downstream] river current slowing you down.

 

You'll get most assistance and push for furthest upriver from the bigger [spring] tides with very little or no 'fresh' coming down, but if your journey back up to Cromwell coincides with small [Neap] tides and a good bit of 'fresh' as well, then you could find yourself under Ebb before you're even halfway there.

[Mrs Trackman]

In June we rang the lockie before leaving Newark and he suggested the best time. Then when we arrived at the fossdyke the lockie there asked when we were planning to return and told us what time would be best.

The Newark lockie also sold us up to date trent charts-really useful, the ones I had (which I think someone gave me) were out of date. at one point there was actually a small island not on my, obviously ancient, charts.

As for getting stuck, I seem to remember a forum poster getting stuck for quite a while after listening to VHF & trying to avoid a gravel barge but I don't think they operate anymore do they?

[Richard T]

For a guide on time on Saturday 23rd July we took 2hrs 10mins from West Stockwith to mooring on the Torksey pontoons. We left West Stockwith about 20minutes after low water and arrivived at Torksey round about high water. The tide was a summer spring. We were on a 50ft narrowboat with a BMC engine so not a fast boat. We used the latest Trent charts which were really helpful.