Flooring/boxing off engine in engine room

[tommyleyland]

Hi all,

So, we're looking for some more storage space and a generally nicer looking layout regarding our engine room.

 

At the moment, we have a trad layout with the engine room to the rear and the bed before that. I'm hoping to build a simple frame out of wooden beams, then covered with plywood.

 

I'm removing the door to the engine room and looking to build steps up to it next to the bed.

 

My main questions are:

1. What size beams do I need?
   I'm hoping to have to avoid pillars, purely due to the lack of metalwork experience to be able to brace the pillars. The beams will span the full width of the boat (Standard narrowboat width)
2. Is the frame I'm proposing study enough?
   I'm hoping the two main beams spanning the width of the boat will be the main structure, the beams running lengthways will be held by the main beams using something like this

This is the "Before & After" plans I have, apologies if they are a bit crap:

 

Before:

 

After:

 

 

Photos of the metal tabs running down each side of the engine room that I'm looking to use:

[WotEver]

Hi Tommy,

 

So basically it's a suspended floor spanning around 2m and anout 1m wide?

 

If it was in a building then you'd want 3 off 6x2 (150 x 50) joists with noggings between them at 400mm centres (so 4 noggings between each joist).

 

The above would give a solid, non-bouncing floor but would be very heavy and virtually impossible to remove for engine maintenance. For those reasons you'll probably want to de-spec it somewhat.

 

Does that help?

[bizzard]

Hi all,

So, we're looking for some more storage space and a generally nicer looking layout regarding our engine room.

 

At the moment, we have a trad layout with the engine room to the rear and the bed before that. I'm hoping to build a simple frame out of wooden beams, then covered with plywood.

 

I'm removing the door to the engine room and looking to build steps up to it next to the bed.

 

My main questions are:

1. What size beams do I need?

   I'm hoping to have to avoid pillars, purely due to the lack of metalwork experience to be able to brace the pillars. The beams will span the full width of the boat (Standard narrowboat width)

2. Is the frame I'm proposing study enough?

   I'm hoping the two main beams spanning the width of the boat will be the main structure, the beams running lengthways will be held by the main beams using something like this

This is the "Before & After" plans I have, apologies if they are a bit crap:

 

Before:

 

After:

 

 

Photos of the metal tabs running down each side of the engine room that I'm looking to use:

A couple of beams that width and unsupported would need to be made from a quite stout hard wood. A cheaper and very strong method would be to glue and clamp together say about four strips of 18mm plywood, about 3 or 4'' wide.

[tommyleyland]

I guess it wouldn't be too much of an issue having pillars held in place with some brackets? Would that simplify the scenario a fair bit?

[WotEver]

I guess it wouldn't be too much of an issue having pillars held in place with some brackets? Would that simplify the scenario a fair bit?

Yes. The joists could be much smaller.

 

Tony

[WotEver]

.

Edited July 8, 2016 by WotEver

[tommyleyland]

Do you know what would be a sensible size joist and what size pillars?

[Rendelf]

Our boat had almost exactly this layout when we bought it. Heat, vibration, weight, and poor timber had created flaking, splintering dust everywhere - the structure was also quite unstable.

 

As per previous comments, a good hard wood, or possibly laminated ply.

 

Have you considered a simple scaffold? Keyclamp.co.UK are useful for this - easy to remove, and smaller than wood to provide access. 27mm OD would do the job- very easy to make uprights too. There are particular fittings for supporting boards.

 

I used cheap steel angle bolted together for ours, which has the advantage of creating lips for boards to sit on.

 

No door to the engin' 'ole?

[bizzard]

Laminating strips of ply together is very strong indeed. If you like, lengths of angle iron could be screwed to the underside of the beams to reinforce them leaving a bit of bare wood at each end for you to fix them down, but they wouldn't really need them.

If you and your crew are extra heavy the wearing of life jackets filled with helium whilst tip toeing over it would relieve it of some weight.

[tommyleyland]

Laminating strips of ply together is very strong indeed. If you like, lengths of angle iron could be screwed to the underside of the beams to reinforce them leaving a bit of bare wood at each end for you to fix them down, but they wouldn't really need them.

If you and your crew are extra heavy the wearing of life jackets filled with helium whilst tip toeing over it would relieve it of some weight.

So you think the strips of plywood lay widthways across the boat with no support would be enough?

[bizzard]

A simple test could be carried out by making a beam, a beam to cut length that can be used for the boat, out of whatever you fancy, laminated ply, 4'X2'' pine or hardwood beam.

Set the beam up in the garden with a brick supporting either end. Measure with internal calipers or ruler the height of the beam and then stand on the middle of the beam whilst someone remeasures the height again. A downward flex of 19 thou would be allowable.

[bizzard]

So you think the strips of plywood lay widthways across the boat with no support would be enough?

Ply laminate is immensely strong. And the beauty of it is that because the plys of the strips are all laid and glued at angles to each other, diagonally and so on which makes them very stable and unaffected by temperature and varying humidity. Obviously The laminated beams would be positioned in the boat ''Strips vertical'' and not horizontally or they will flex.

[Richard T]

The other issue is to be able to easily get at the engine to make the essential daily checks e.g oil, water alternator belt etc and then be removeable for servicing. If its difficult to access checks will not be done!!

You could introduce mid span vertical support held in place with coach bolts and wing nuts. You could also introduce sound proofing material but remember your engine needs air to work properly - this amount required is quite large - several m3 per minute depending on engine capacity and RPM so don't make everything too air tight!!

[tommyleyland]

Ply laminate is immensely strong. And the beauty of it is that because the plys of the strips are all laid and glued at angles to each other, diagonally and so on which makes them very stable and unaffected by temperature and varying humidity. Obviously The laminated beams would be positioned in the boat ''Strips vertical'' and not horizontally or they will flex.

That's one issue is that if I only have the metal tabs on the left and right of the boat, I don't think I've got anywhere to lay it if it was vertical. That's why I was thinking of strong beams horizontally.

 

The other issue is to be able to easily get at the engine to make the essential daily checks e.g oil, water alternator belt etc and then be removeable for servicing. If its difficult to access checks will not be done!!

You could introduce mid span vertical support held in place with coach bolts and wing nuts. You could also introduce sound proofing material but remember your engine needs air to work properly - this amount required is quite large - several m3 per minute depending on engine capacity and RPM so don't make everything too air tight!!

I'm hoping to build the frame and have the plywood almost lay on top, with some easy way of removing them for access.

I'm not looking to make it quieter, it will probably make a big difference with the flooring alone. I'll also be installing vents for air flow.

[bizzard]

That's one issue is that if I only have the metal tabs on the left and right of the boat, I don't think I've got anywhere to lay it if it was vertical. That's why I was thinking of strong beams horizontally.

 

I'm hoping to build the frame and have the plywood almost lay on top, with some easy way of removing them for access.

I'm not looking to make it quieter, it will probably make a big difference with the flooring alone. I'll also be installing vents for air flow.

If you laminate strips of ply to the same dimensions as 4X2'' beams they will be much, much more rigid and you will have the same 2'' wide surfaces for the hanger tabs.

[WotEver]

So you think the strips of plywood lay widthways across the boat with no support would be enough?

No. Mr Bizz is suggesting creating 4x2 beams with 4" wide lengths of 18mm ply laminated together. That gives smaller joists than I described but much stiffer.

 

Tny

[jonesthenuke]

You could fabricate a frame from Unistrut, its steel but easy to assemble with brackets and bolts (so no real metal fabrication skills needed). It would take up much less space than wooden joists.

[tommyleyland]

That unistrut stuff looks amazing. £7 for 3 meters too. Hmmm...

[FadeToScarlet]

I'd be inclined to use the keyclamp scaffolding tubes to make a Table-like structure in the middle over the engine. Removable board over the top of the engine for oil checks etc, boards between the metal tabs and this frame. You've then got storage under the boards either side of the engine.

 

Remove board over top of engine and on the filter side to service it. Remove everything if more serious work needed.

[tommyleyland]

I'd be inclined to use the keyclamp scaffolding tubes to make a Table-like structure in the middle over the engine. Removable board over the top of the engine for oil checks etc, boards between the metal tabs and this frame. You've then got storage under the boards either side of the engine.

 

Remove board over top of engine and on the filter side to service it. Remove everything if more serious work needed.

Great tip, that sounds like what I'm looking to do to be honest.

 

You could fabricate a frame from Unistrut, its steel but easy to assemble with brackets and bolts (so no real metal fabrication skills needed). It would take up much less space than wooden joists.

Having a quick look, the smallest depth they do in the single channel struts has a maximum uniform load of 148kg per m2 for a length of 2m, which is massively impressive. If I use 3-4 struts going horizontally maybe with some other struts running vertically to keep everything together, I think it might be plenty to hold a flooring for a maximum of 2 people at a time, which it definitely won't be that many.

 

I'll have a re-design

[OldGoat]

I fabricated mine out of 1" square tube with angle iron either side to accommodate removable panels so that you can get to the engine for maintenance and removal.

A bit bouncy if you jump on it, otherwise solid. Has worked for 16 years.....