Newbie query - upgrading power generation for a liveaboard?

[svetlovska]

Hi all, apologies if answers to this have been done to death already but I am shortly to buy a secondhand boat which looks great for my continuous cruising plans in every regard but power generation. Of course I will be fitting as many solar panels as I can cram onto the roof, and my power needs are modest (low voltage lighting, 12 volt tv, no mains fridges or microwaves etc), but still, I aim to be off line as much as possible, so I'm considering my other power options.

 

The boat has a Beta Marine 43 with PRM Gearbox (whatever one of them is), and an inverter, but nothing else. Space is, obviously, tight, but I don't want to lug a petrol genny around if I can help it. How feasible is it to retrofit a travel pack, additional alternator, standalone built in diesel generator or other option? Any ideas gratefully received.

[Paul C]

If you can find the serial number of the engine then contact Beta marine and they'll let you know if its possible to upgrade the alternator and fit a travel pack etc. It won't be cheap though. Even if they say "yes" there might be specific issues in the way the engine's fitted to that boat (ie the space around the engine).

 

Obviously a built in diesel generator's main issue will be whether there's a suitable space for it. If not, it could entail major structural mods to fit one in, making it not worth it. Have you researched how expensive they are?

[svetlovska]

Hi Paul, thanks for the prompt response. I'm expecting something of the order of £5,000 for a built in diesel option, maybe one of the Fischer Panda cocooned units, but retrofitting a travel pack, if possible, and upgrading the power management electronics to make best use of it would probably be the better/space saving option, if that is possible. Good thought re the engine model number - I'll check it out. Still interested in any other ideas...

[nicknorman]

Reasonably modern Beta 43s have 2 alternators by default, a small one for the engine battery and a large one (150 to 175A) for the domestic batteries. Thus they are pretty good at charging batteries or even running a high load device such as washing machine via the inverter. What sort of inverter / power rating does the boat have?

 

It is theoretically possible to retrofit a Travelpower but it is not easy and quite costly. My suggestion is that if you have a decent inverter and a modern Beta 43 with bi alternator then a Travelpower, whilst certainly being a "nice to have", is not a vital accessory.

[ditchcrawler]

If you are being that frugal with your power usage do you really need any other sort of generation or are you having a 12 volt fridge and freezer

[Robbo]

Hi all, apologies if answers to this have been done to death already but I am shortly to buy a secondhand boat which looks great for my continuous cruising plans in every regard but power generation. Of course I will be fitting as many solar panels as I can cram onto the roof, and my power needs are modest (low voltage lighting, 12 volt tv, no mains fridges or microwaves etc), but still, I aim to be off line as much as possible, so I'm considering my other power options.

The boat has a Beta Marine 43 with PRM Gearbox (whatever one of them is), and an inverter, but nothing else. Space is, obviously, tight, but I don't want to lug a petrol genny around if I can help it. How feasible is it to retrofit a travel pack, additional alternator, standalone built in diesel generator or other option? Any ideas gratefully received.

If this is your first boat I wouldn't do anything to it until you've had at least one year on it, you'll then be in a better position know what you'll need.

[svetlovska]

Hi. Good to know about modern Beta 43s. The boat is a 2009 build, if that helps - I'll find out more on my next visit in a few days time. Frugal: I don't know, this is a first time for me, I'm aiming to do whatever I can to avoid using the inverter, running most gadgets off USB rechargeable batteries (eg laptop, music system), but I still expect power to be an issue, so I'm trying to prepare for the worst!

[OldGoat]

Hi Svetlovska -

You start off by saying 'modest power requirements' then proceed to thinking of a Travel Power unit. That only makes sense if you want to have an all electric boat or even just a washing machine - and neither of those in boating terms are 'modest'. If you do want those plus a fancy coffee machine then - fine - a TP makes sense.

Just seen your latest post

If your Beta has a 'flat / wide' alternator belt, aluminium pulleys and a power takeoff shaft at the front (a lump of metal sticking out in front of the shiny aluminium pulleys) the is should be upgradable from the mechanical point of view. But ask Beta anyway as they can give you a definitive answer.

 

A small inverter large enough to run a TV, small hifi - and recharge iPod batteries, say around 300W, then they are not huge power eaters - as long as yo switch them off when not needed.

 

Fess up and say what mains electric devices you think you might need now and in the future and 'we' can help more....

[Robbo]

If this is your first boat I wouldn't do anything to it until you've had at least one year on it, you'll then be in a better position know what you'll need.

Although if you've got no battery monitoring device then adding a amp counter will be a useful device as you can then make a log of how much power your using and when so you can then decide on the right equipment needed for generating the power required.

 

ie. No point spending thousands on a diesel generator if you use little power during the winter when just running the engine an hour a day will charge the batteries. Solar in summer may sound perfect, but if you use little power and moving around a lot then a few extra batteries may tied you over for the days your not moving.

[MtB]

Hi. Good to know about modern Beta 43s. The boat is a 2009 build, if that helps - I'll find out more on my next visit in a few days time. Frugal: I don't know, this is a first time for me, I'm aiming to do whatever I can to avoid using the inverter, running most gadgets off USB rechargeable batteries (eg laptop, music system), but I still expect power to be an issue, so I'm trying to prepare for the worst!

 

It is often pointed out that a fridge consumes the vast majority of the power you generate and store but this is only half th story.

 

You mention wanting run a laptop. Half an hour a day will be no problem but if you use it for work and expect it to be ON and connected to the interweb 9 hours a day five days a week, then it will challenge if not eclipse the fridge in terms of power consumption.

[svetlovska]

Fess up? Um - I already did? Laptop; wifi hub; Cello 12 v tv/DVD; low power led lights; 12v fridge/freezer; kindle; mobile phone; usb rechargeable pushbike lights; radio; small washing machine to be operated only whilst under way. I'm planning on 400 to 600 w of solar panel, the power concern is that I will be moored up off line for up to a fortnight at a time, so I want to minimise running the main engine just to charge batteries.

Thanks Mike. I will be retired to so no working days. Most of my web surfing is via iPad or mobile phone, 2-3 hours a day, similar use of the tv.

[Robbo]

Fess up? Um - I already did? Laptop; wifi hub; Cello 12 v tv/DVD; low power led lights; 12v fridge/freezer; kindle; mobile phone; usb rechargeable pushbike lights; radio; small washing machine to be operated only whilst under way. I'm planning on 400 to 600 w of solar panel, the power concern is that I will be moored up off line for up to a fortnight at a time, so I want to minimise running the main engine just to charge batteries.Thanks Mike. I will be retired to so no working days. Most of my web surfing is via iPad or mobile phone, 2-3 hours a day, similar use of the tv.

What's the hot water source?

[MtB]

Fess up? Um - I already did? Laptop; wifi hub; Cello 12 v tv/DVD; low power led lights; 12v fridge/freezer; kindle; mobile phone; usb rechargeable pushbike lights; radio; small washing machine to be operated only whilst under way. I'm planning on 400 to 600 w of solar panel, the power concern is that I will be moored up off line for up to a fortnight at a time, so I want to minimise running the main engine just to charge batteries.

Thanks Mike. I will be retired to so no working days. Most of my web surfing is via iPad or mobile phone, 2-3 hours a day, similar use of the tv.

 

 

This solar will prolly be adequate in summer but doing a proper power audit will be helpful. Details on Tony Brooks' website (www.tbtraining.co.uk IIRC).

 

I have 300w of solar and on a bright summers day I get about 5 or 6A into my 24v batteries, equiv to 10 or 12A into 12v. In witner however, this drops to zero or 0.1A, no use at all. Disregard any posts that say you get 10% of summer output in winter, its closer to 1% in my personal experience!

 

So net result of this is you need a decent charging method. Its not nice having the propulsion diesel engine rumbling away for hours on end while you're in the boat so a decent petrol genny is one solution. A properly installed on-board cocooned diesel genny can be seriously quiet so is another, but budget over £10k for one I'd suggest.

[svetlovska]

Calorifier on moving days, back boiler and/or gasring on non moving days. A navy shower once a week.

[MtB]

P.S. Don't underestimate the sheer number of hours it takes to bring your batteries up from 80% SoC to 100%. Or the importance of doing this once a week unless you're happy to wreck a set each winter.

[svetlovska]

Thanks Mike. So: ballpark, obviously, but how many hours a week should I expect to have to run the engine in the winter to keep the batteries in good shape?

[Robbo]

Thanks Mike. So: ballpark, obviously, but how many hours a week should I expect to have to run the engine in the winter to keep the batteries in good shape?

1.5-2hr a day then around 5-7hr once a week to fully charge. So around 15-18hr in total.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Robbo

[svetlovska]

Thanks, that's good to know. Lucky I'll be a continuous cruiser then

[MtB]

1.5-2hr a day then around 5-7hr once a week to fully charge. So around 15-18hr in total.

 

I was going to suggest 20 hours a week, but this assumes a clever charge controller.

 

With just the standard 14.4v or 14.8v alternator controller, it might be a whole lot longer. 30 hours a week perhaps.

[svetlovska]

Trust me. It'll have the cleverest damn power management that money can buy!!

[MtB]

Dozens of threads on this if you look back. Look up in particular the long and acrimonious debates between nicknorman and Graham(something). You'll learn loads!

[Robbo]

Trust me. It'll have the cleverest damn power management that money can buy!!

Throw knowledge and common sense at the problem not money. Learn how batteries charge and where your power is going before deciding on anything.

[OldGoat]

svetlovska, on 26 Jun 2016 - 7:15 PM, said:

Fess up? Um - I already did? Laptop; wifi hub; Cello 12 v tv/DVD; low power led lights; 12v fridge/freezer; kindle; mobile phone; usb rechargeable pushbike lights; radio; small washing machine to be operated only whilst under way. I'm planning on 400 to 600 w of solar panel, the power concern is that I will be moored up off line for up to a fortnight at a time, so I want to minimise running the main engine just to charge batteries.

Thanks Mike. I will be retired to so no working days. Most of my web surfing is via iPad or mobile phone, 2-3 hours a day, similar use of the tv.

 

On a point of order M'Lady - fridge/freezer and washing machine were not obvious in your initial post - but now there 'here'.......

 

12v fridge/freezer

There aren't many of such animals around any more, at least any device that's worthy of that name. I have an aged LEC / Maurice Batts device that is 4.5 cu ft (sorry) fridge and 1 1/4 cu ft freezer on top. (It needs a change) My Management has said nothing smaller will do. We shop infrequently as possible so the freezer compartment - capable of freezing items down, rather than a conservator is always full.. I can't find anything similar in external size to replace it. If you need to have what we've got then you have to go for a 240V unit.

Don't panic - many folks run 240V kit. The secret is to go for an inverter with a very low standby power consumption (Victron do one which - it is said has enough power in reserve to start a mains F/F.

 

Washing machine.

We have a tiny camping style twin tub machine.

+ Takes little mains power (no heater)

+ runs off a 300w inverter

+ spins reasonably efficiently

- can't take a big load

+ shirts, underwear Ok

- jeans one at a time

bed linen - not tried.

 

From what's gone before, I'd suggest:-

Beefing up the Beta alternator arrangement

Ditto the battery capacity

Don't bother with the TP

Don't have - as yet undisclosed, but nice to have power hungry devices - hair dryers, irons etc.

[Richard10002]

Get a NASA BM2, plus a Smart gauge, battery monitor. About £250,but worth their weight in gold, and you have already said you will have the best power something that money can buy.

[svetlovska]

This is the 12 v fridge freezer I had in mind.

 

http://www.engelaustralia.com.au/2products_details.asp?pid=11&productid=21627

 

And yes, twin tub camping style washing machine. No hairdryers, irons, toasters...