How does this rank?

[magictime]

Electric cooking - doesn't make sense on a canal boat.

 

The rest of the kit is propping this up, and costing unnecessary thousands etc.

That was my first thought too. If you want a washing machine etc. on board, you're already going to need a large solar array for summer and a powerful generator for winter, especially if you're not cruising very far or very often. Adding an electric cooker really would be stetching a point.

Edited June 10, 2016 by magictime

[Bee]

Stone the crows. Would all work brilliantly then ever so slowly the batts would start to fade then huge bill to replace and so on then the clever boxes of circuitry would fail then you would rip the lot out, bung in a multifuel with rads and live happier ever after.

As Chalky says if you have a diesel providing rotational power why not stick a prop on that and forget the leccy bit. a couple of batts and a cheap inverter for phone/ tool charging and away you go with a pocket full of unspent money to get a nice little quiet genny. I think there is a bit of the kings new clothes about all this leccy stuff, a boat is uninhabitable without heating in winter, a shovelfull of coal on the fire is easy, several experts with multimeters and spare parts from the other side of Asia is something else. Hurrumph.

[Chewbacka]

Stone the crows. Would all work brilliantly then ever so slowly the batts would start to fade then huge bill to replace and so on then the clever boxes of circuitry would fail then you would rip the lot out, bung in a multifuel with rads and live happier ever after.

As Chalky says if you have a diesel providing rotational power why not stick a prop on that and forget the leccy bit. a couple of batts and a cheap inverter for phone/ tool charging and away you go with a pocket full of unspent money to get a nice little quiet genny. I think there is a bit of the kings new clothes about all this leccy stuff, a boat is uninhabitable without heating in winter, a shovelfull of coal on the fire is easy, several experts with multimeters and spare parts from the other side of Asia is something else. Hurrumph.

Fully agree - in the middle of nowhere in winter, simple is most certainly best.

Over complex may also be very difficult to sell when its time for your next boat.

[fergyguy]

I'm hearing you guys loud and clear and as you say keeping it simple is by far the best option.

[Bee]

I'm hearing you guys loud and clear and as you say keeping it simple is by far the best option.

Our boat is simple, its in France and we are v. soon going over to cruise for approx. 3 months, we spent a couple of days on it last month to chuck the spiders out and make a list of things we need, that list comes to half a page of A4,(it doesn't include all the things like potato peelers and HP sauce) 0 rings, seals, impeller, LED's, blade terminals and on and on. I built the thing so I know it inside and out. If it was complicated I would probably cry when something failed to work!

[MtB]

Stone the crows. Would all work brilliantly then ever so slowly the batts would start to fade then huge bill to replace and so on then the clever boxes of circuitry would fail then you would rip the lot out, bung in a multifuel with rads and live happier ever after.

As Chalky says if you have a diesel providing rotational power why not stick a prop on that and forget the leccy bit. a couple of batts and a cheap inverter for phone/ tool charging and away you go with a pocket full of unspent money to get a nice little quiet genny. I think there is a bit of the kings new clothes about all this leccy stuff, a boat is uninhabitable without heating in winter, a shovelfull of coal on the fire is easy, several experts with multimeters and spare parts from the other side of Asia is something else. Hurrumph.

 

 

Excellent rant and coincides with my point of view perfectly. Well worth a greenie!

[roland elsdon]

Flat in frozen north and a springer water bug....

[DrBurkstrom]

I spoke to the same guy at Crick, and barring some disaster I'm going to be taking the plunge next year with a sail away shell fitted with parts of this system and adding the rest (batteries, controllers etc) as I do the fit out. This particular system seems to have been installed in a fair number of boats so far, the builder I'm going to be using has done a number of them and are experienced with the system. The only additional thing in the engine bay is a biggish Lynch motor with a belt to the prop shaft that can either turn the shaft or be turned, functioning as a motor or generator, I can imagine a mechanic who's not seen one in that context before being momentarily flummoxed, but there's no difference in the engine itself - take the belt off and it's just a Beta 43 (or whatever you've gone for).

 

In terms of reliability I think it's actually not just fine but potentially more reliable, because you have an extra, separate, drive system. If the diesel engine breaks down you can still get to a boatyard on electric, either with stored power if you have any in the batteries, or at a pinch an emergency generator. If parts of the electrical system fail you've still got a diesel engine the same as any other boat. It gives you redundancy, even more so since you can add as much solar as you can afford / fit on your roof with less in terms of the diminishing returns. The batteries are a bank of 24 wet lead acid traction cells (2V) connected in series, with a 5 year guarantee and an expected life of 10 years, like the motor it's proven technology that's been used in forklifts etc for years and years. As far as I can see, the biggest potential point of failure will be the control electronics, but the company's been developing these systems for years and plenty have been installed.

 

I certainly wouldn't rely on electric heating through the winter, that would be really insane. I'm planning on having a multifuel stove with a back boiler and/or diesel heating system. I don't do a lot of cooking and will be fine with an induction hob and a combi microwave, yes they'll use a lot of electricity that in the winter I'll have to replenish by running the engine (at an appropriate time - naturally), but I'm fine with that in exchange for not having to fit a gas system (the boat will still have a "gas" locker, but i can fill it with ropes or paint cans or toffee or whatever). The large battery bank lets you time-shift your electricity use, you don't have to run the engine at the same time as you're using the electricity.

 

 

Also, hello everybody....

[MtB]

Welcome!

 

Thanks for such an informative first post. You make the system sound much more viable and attractive!

 

I see what you mean about time-shifting your leccy generation. For me this is a something of a holy grail. To be able to have the boat generate leccy while I'm not in (i.e. out at work) would be brilliant. Does this system have remote starting/stopping?

Edited June 12, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[fergyguy]

So not everyone feels hybrid is not the way to go? I liked the crick boad and was told in passing it had a beta 43 engine but it was only looking at their brochure when we got home I saw mention of the specifications I gave at the start of this post...they did however clearly state they were happy to install what ever engine we wanted and at no time were they trying to sell us any of the fore mentioned specification.....there's awhile yet before we choose a builder so plenty of time to chew things over all be it we are going to talk to Tyler Wilson in some detail as to what we are aiming to do with our boat and we will wait and see what they suggest.

[Paul C]

I spoke to the same guy at Crick, and barring some disaster I'm going to be taking the plunge next year with a sail away shell fitted with parts of this system and adding the rest (batteries, controllers etc) as I do the fit out. This particular system seems to have been installed in a fair number of boats so far, the builder I'm going to be using has done a number of them and are experienced with the system. The only additional thing in the engine bay is a biggish Lynch motor with a belt to the prop shaft that can either turn the shaft or be turned, functioning as a motor or generator, I can imagine a mechanic who's not seen one in that context before being momentarily flummoxed, but there's no difference in the engine itself - take the belt off and it's just a Beta 43 (or whatever you've gone for).

 

In terms of reliability I think it's actually not just fine but potentially more reliable, because you have an extra, separate, drive system. If the diesel engine breaks down you can still get to a boatyard on electric, either with stored power if you have any in the batteries, or at a pinch an emergency generator. If parts of the electrical system fail you've still got a diesel engine the same as any other boat. It gives you redundancy, even more so since you can add as much solar as you can afford / fit on your roof with less in terms of the diminishing returns. The batteries are a bank of 24 wet lead acid traction cells (2V) connected in series, with a 5 year guarantee and an expected life of 10 years, like the motor it's proven technology that's been used in forklifts etc for years and years. As far as I can see, the biggest potential point of failure will be the control electronics, but the company's been developing these systems for years and plenty have been installed.

 

I certainly wouldn't rely on electric heating through the winter, that would be really insane. I'm planning on having a multifuel stove with a back boiler and/or diesel heating system. I don't do a lot of cooking and will be fine with an induction hob and a combi microwave, yes they'll use a lot of electricity that in the winter I'll have to replenish by running the engine (at an appropriate time - naturally), but I'm fine with that in exchange for not having to fit a gas system (the boat will still have a "gas" locker, but i can fill it with ropes or paint cans or toffee or whatever). The large battery bank lets you time-shift your electricity use, you don't have to run the engine at the same time as you're using the electricity.

 

 

Also, hello everybody....

 

Great.

 

How does it overcome the laws of physics, in that the dieselburnt in an engine which charges batteries, which then drive a motor to power a boat, is the same diesel to burn to directly drive the boat? Or does its advantage rely on a large solar array reducing diesel consumption sufficiently? Or possibly, the savings from being able to run the diesel engine at its most effecient power/speed? What's the break even point, or DCFRR for the capital vs (savings in) running costs?

[DrBurkstrom]

 

Great.

 

How does it overcome the laws of physics, in that the dieselburnt in an engine which charges batteries, which then drive a motor to power a boat, is the same diesel to burn to directly drive the boat? Or does its advantage rely on a large solar array reducing diesel consumption sufficiently? Or possibly, the savings from being able to run the diesel engine at its most effecient power/speed? What's the break even point, or DCFRR for the capital vs (savings in) running costs?

 

If you can't get electricity from any source other than the same diesel engine, I think the advantages drop off quite considerably. Everyone gets the not-really-quantifiable advantages of it being really, REALLY quiet, and a lack of fumes in deep locks and tunnels, but economically I'll admit the whole thing becomes a LOT more complex to work out. According to the spec, which makes sense to me and seems to add up where data is given, the motor can peak at 10kW but uses an average of 4kW for canal cruising. When it's being driven to generate, it can produce 5kW, so they advertise that for every hour of diesel cruising you're banking an hour of electric cruising. What that doesn't take into account is any extra diesel you're burning from the additional generation load.

I don't know enough about things like power-prop matching and the other intricacies to say for sure but I suspect that if you have NO solar, and NEVER stop to plug in at a marina then you're on to a loser, but it would be the starting point for a break even calculation. That calculation will be crazy, madly complicated, would have to factor in travel, use, everything, all stacked against the cost of diesel which is a bit more changeable than the unit price of electricity for a home solar calculation.

 

 

Welcome!

 

Thanks for such an informative first post. You make the system sound much more viable and attractive!

 

I see what you mean about time-shifting your leccy generation. For me this is a something of a holy grail. To be able to have the boat generate leccy while I'm not in (i.e. out at work) would be brilliant. Does this system have remote starting/stopping?

 

Thanks - glad it was helpful!

 

Not as far as I know - the control system for the diesel engine is the standard for the engine though, so you could possibly add one on (well you could certainly do it if you didn't care about your engine warranty). I'm intrinsically and possibly unnecessarily scared of the idea of starting a diesel engine from afar. I'm sure I've seen generators with built in remote control / monitoring as part of the new vogue that everything must be controllable from you mobile phone - that might be a better option and would leave your actual propulsion un-mucked-about with.

[Paul C]

Without knowing the numbers and doing the calculations, you don't know if a £20,000 extra spend saves an egg cup of diesel, or better. The calculations shouldn't be that complicated to do.

[DrBurkstrom]

Without knowing the numbers and doing the calculations, you don't know if a £20,000 extra spend saves an egg cup of diesel, or better. The calculations shouldn't be that complicated to do.

 

I've not done detailed calculations because I basically did enough to ensure that will definitely reduce running costs and reliance on external sources. My additional spend compared to a standard Beta 43, alternator, leisure battery set, inverter, etc which I'd still need anyway will come to a little over £10k (incl a lot more solar than would be "standard" for even a liveaboard boat).

 

I know this is a lot of money, but I'm lucky enough that it's (just!) within my budget and I find the fringe benefits of silence when needed, lack of fumes in tunnels and deep locks, and general environmentalism compelling. Especially in terms of helping to support an idea to help it become more mainstream. I'm in my early 30's and planning this as a long term commitment, so a break even point of 20 years doesn't faze me, various parts of the system will almost certainly need to be replaced during that time, but solar panels are a constantly evolving technology that's only ever going to get better and cheaper. In 10 years it may well be possible to fit enough solar to the roof of a boat that every function from propulsion to heating to cooking can be entirely electric.

 

The problem with the calculation I think is the variables. You'd need to know how much time you were going to spend cruising, how far you'd want to go in a day, how often you'd want to do several consecutive full days, that kind of thing. As well as domestic usage, including the replacement (in my case at least) of gas. I'll do some sums based on a bit of research into solar generation and guesses at cruising patterns, but with solar being dependent on where you are it's still all a bit of a guess.

 

I'm going to be logging every watt generated and drop of diesel burnt simply because playing around with sensors, electronics and computers is something I enjoy doing as a hobby - so at the very least after a year I'll be able to work out how much more that year would have cost me.

[Paul C]

 

The problem with the calculation I think is the variables. You'd need to know how much time you were going to spend cruising, how far you'd want to go in a day, how often you'd want to do several consecutive full days, that kind of thing. As well as domestic usage, including the replacement (in my case at least) of gas. I'll do some sums based on a bit of research into solar generation and guesses at cruising patterns, but with solar being dependent on where you are it's still all a bit of a guess.

 

 

 

Is this your first boat?

[Alan de Enfield]

You could (and many do) just turn off your diesel engine when in the lock, saving 'fumes' 10-15-20 minutes of engine 'wearing out time' and 10-15-20 minutes 'worth' of diesel.

 

Just think on a '10 lock day' that could be a couple of engine hours saved towards your next engine service, and, the saving of a couple of litres of diesel.

[DrBurkstrom]

 

Is this your first boat?

 

It will be, yes. So while I can make estimated calculations based on what I'd like to be doing - reality will undoubtedly prove slightly different!

 

You could (and many do) just turn off your diesel engine when in the lock, saving 'fumes' 10-15-20 minutes of engine 'wearing out time' and 10-15-20 minutes 'worth' of diesel.

 

Just think on a '10 lock day' that could be a couple of engine hours saved towards your next engine service, and, the saving of a couple of litres of diesel.

 

Fair point, I'd assume though that depending on the start-stop intervals this would contribute more wear than just leaving it running? That's a total guess based on a gut instinct and no knowledge - I'm far more comfortable with electronic systems than internal combustion engines, another part of the reason for going for a system like this, though I think it'll make me something of a minority in the boating world...

[Paul C]

I think its important to understand when the right engine (diesel or electric) should be run - for example, you may choose to run the diesel at full power to charge the batteries, then shut it off and use electric, then run it again etc. Or run the diesel + generate electric on cruising while shutting it off in locked sections and passing long lines of moored boats. (And there's other considerations based on how flat or charged your main battery bank is too, and the requirement here - for example if you're planning to stop for a few days, you'd want to override and ensure batteries are fully charged for that). The "regime" that you run the diesel, or not, will massively influence the efficiency of the whole system, thus any possible cost savings of having it.

Also you might want to incorporate the likely near-future benefit from the solar power, ie if the weather report says its going to be sunny, then you can "bank on that" and not run the motor so much, knowing that you'll gain the benefit from the solar panels in the next half day or so. My £200 central heating connects to the internet and receives weather forecasts to determine its logic, so your £10,000 hybrid/solar setup would be missing a trick in not doing so.

[Alan de Enfield]

Sometimes the old ways are the best, sometimes new technology comes along and is 'Poo-Pood' (I did for solar panels).

Eventually some of the new stuff becomes accepted as the norm.

 

The trick is knowing what technology to become an early adopter for.

 

[Paul C]

You could (and many do) just turn off your diesel engine when in the lock, saving 'fumes' 10-15-20 minutes of engine 'wearing out time' and 10-15-20 minutes 'worth' of diesel.

 

Just think on a '10 lock day' that could be a couple of engine hours saved towards your next engine service, and, the saving of a couple of litres of diesel.

 

 

Sometimes the old ways are the best, sometimes new technology comes along and is 'Poo-Pood' (I did for solar panels).

Eventually some of the new stuff becomes accepted as the norm.

 

The trick is knowing what technology to become an early adopter for.

 

 

Yes but its better to base things on facts - your energy balance seems "off", in that turning the engine off and relying on electricity DOESN'T automatically save the same amount in diesel - because that energy needs to be generated somehow. Sure, if it can be done via solar, its a saving. If it can't, then its not - the engine would work harder and consume more diesel when its both propelling the boat and recharging the batteries.

[DrBurkstrom]

I think its important to understand when the right engine (diesel or electric) should be run - for example, you may choose to run the diesel at full power to charge the batteries, then shut it off and use electric, then run it again etc. Or run the diesel + generate electric on cruising while shutting it off in locked sections and passing long lines of moored boats. (And there's other considerations based on how flat or charged your main battery bank is too, and the requirement here - for example if you're planning to stop for a few days, you'd want to override and ensure batteries are fully charged for that). The "regime" that you run the diesel, or not, will massively influence the efficiency of the whole system, thus any possible cost savings of having it.

Also you might want to incorporate the likely near-future benefit from the solar power, ie if the weather report says its going to be sunny, then you can "bank on that" and not run the motor so much, knowing that you'll gain the benefit from the solar panels in the next half day or so. My £200 central heating connects to the internet and receives weather forecasts to determine its logic, so your £10,000 hybrid/solar setup would be missing a trick in not doing so.

 

 

Absolutely. GPS shield for a Raspberry Pi, 4G router, and a bit of programming should yield as decent a prediction as weather forecasters are capable of. As I mentioned, that kind of thing is hobby and part of the reason I want to do a self-fitout - fill the boat with a bunch of little (but non-essential and semi-removable) home made gadgets.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes but its better to base things on facts - your energy balance seems "off", in that turning the engine off and relying on electricity DOESN'T automatically save the same amount in diesel - because that energy needs to be generated somehow. Sure, if it can be done via solar, its a saving. If it can't, then its not - the engine would work harder and consume more diesel when its both propelling the boat and recharging the batteries.

 

I think that depends how much harder the engine has to work. From my understanding and reading anecdotal reports of what people get when cruising / cruising and charging with standard systems, I think the slight extent to which a standard engine is overpowered for canal conditions means you can get roughly 1 for 1. So an hour's diesel running and then an hour's electric running will use the same amount of diesel as running a non-hybrid for 2 hours. So it's 10k for no economic advantage, until you factor in solar or shore power, any amount of which is an improvement in economy and during the day you're always going to get something from solar, even if it's minimal. My budget and £10k additional spend estimate includes a comparatively huge solar array, by the time I come to fit it next year I should be able to fit at least 2-2.5kW, for my £2k solar budget, so I should be able to make a significant saving in diesel. I'm aiming for a cruising pattern of moving the boat along once a week or so, and mooring up to work in between, plenty of time in the summer for a big array to charge the batteries enough for the next move. As you say above, choosing when to use which mode of travel will be important, there are basic common sense ideas like the ones you outlined and the rest will be a learning process.

[Paul C]

There's definitely legs in the idea, in fact an electric canal boat has been done before (it used extensive solar and I think hookup too). Given that the most usage of the (moving around of) the boat coincides with the best solar generation time - summertime - it should be able to utilise solar quite well. Normally solar is used simply to assist charging the domestic bank, such that the highest electricity use coincides with winter time (lights on longer, less cruising, more time "inside" the boat watching telly, etc) which is the lowest solar generating time, so typically in the summertime the solar array is oversized and the MPPT controller has to turn down the panels, to avoid generating an excess of power.

 

Combine it with sensible use of shoreline hookup too (are you on a mooring with hookup? moorings when you're out and about almost never have it, unless you purposely go into a marina or stop on someone else's long term mooring) and there's potential savings there.

 

My back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that those savings are small compared to the capital (and possibly running, depending on reliabiity and spares prices) costs so it would need to have other advantages over simply the cost saving. Of course for some, the novelty and the technical aspects are a draw in themselves. I'm not sure quietness and emissions are actually significant advantages.

 

There is (obviously) a corrolary with hybrid electric cars, and especially PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicles) where the weight/size of batteries is much more of an issue and the main cost barrier is the cost of suitable batteries. Hybrid cars make much more sense (in terms of the technology and energy-saving potential) because they can use regenerative braking to make significant efficiency gains, a boat cannot do this.

[DrBurkstrom]

There's definitely legs in the idea, in fact an electric canal boat has been done before (it used extensive solar and I think hookup too). Given that the most usage of the (moving around of) the boat coincides with the best solar generation time - summertime - it should be able to utilise solar quite well. Normally solar is used simply to assist charging the domestic bank, such that the highest electricity use coincides with winter time (lights on longer, less cruising, more time "inside" the boat watching telly, etc) which is the lowest solar generating time, so typically in the summertime the solar array is oversized and the MPPT controller has to turn down the panels, to avoid generating an excess of power.

Indeed, the two complement each other quite well. Obviously the greater diesel use will be in the winter, although I'm planning to mount the panels in such a way that they can be tilted to get a bit more in the winter, it's not going to be enough on it's own.

 

Combine it with sensible use of shoreline hookup too (are you on a mooring with hookup? moorings when you're out and about almost never have it, unless you purposely go into a marina or stop on someone else's long term mooring) and there's potential savings there.

 

I'm planning to continuously cruise. All I need to work is some electricity and an internet connection, so I'm hoping I can manage that in most places whether the electricity is via solar, diesel generation or popping into a marina for a night or two to charge up. In deepest winter it may well be a case of cruising for a couple of days to fully charge the massive battery bank, then park up for a fortnight and use that power to live on (there being a large amount of it), then repeat.

 

My back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that those savings are small compared to the capital (and possibly running, depending on reliabiity and spares prices) costs so it would need to have other advantages over simply the cost saving. Of course for some, the novelty and the technical aspects are a draw in themselves. I'm not sure quietness and emissions are actually significant advantages.

 

That's pretty much where I'm coming from. I also think it offers a lot of convenience (having a large battery bank and the storage capacity for large solar). I'm happy with my decision, and want to basically wave the flag for the idea so people actually consider it and don't dismiss it out of hand. As you've said, it does have legs and while I'll admit it's not there for everybody yet, if people for whom it is a benefit don't support it, it won't get any better and won't be an option for anyone.

 

 

There is (obviously) a corrolary with hybrid electric cars, and especially PHEV (plug in hybrid electric vehicles) where the weight/size of batteries is much more of an issue and the main cost barrier is the cost of suitable batteries. Hybrid cars make much more sense (in terms of the technology and energy-saving potential) because they can use regenerative braking to make significant efficiency gains, a boat cannot do this.

Yes, although a boat has an advantage when it comes to fitting more solar surface area to the roof.

 

Edit: I forgot this - the company that makes this system has been experimenting with regeneration via the propeller on sailing boats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yo4_mB9u4c

Edited June 12, 2016 by DrBurkstrom

[magnetman]

I haven't read the thread in detail but would be interested to hear how you get on with it.

 

I don't think electric propulsion for canal boats (other than small ones with regular electric hookup) is a valid option at the moment. Would be nice if it was but taking everything into account (not just silence ) I just don't fancy it.

 

I like electric boats. I have an electric kayak and electric dinghy and an electric day boat but both my canal barges are -currently- powered by diesel engines.

 

If it becomes sensible (financially and reliability-wise) then I may consider electric as it is definitely a Good Thing.

 

 

For the record I think you will end up putting a diesel engine in with a gearbox and a shaft connected to a propeller.

 

It would not be the first time.

[magnetman]