60ft up and down the Wigan Flight

[Mike Todd]

 

Where did they stand?

One unhappy wet legged steerer in Bingley Five Rise.

 

I'd day that that evidence is unproven. Firstly, it is drastically foreshortened and does not show water actually landing on the boat. Secondly, looking at where the tiller pin is, bearing in mind most advice points towards having sufficient forward room to avoid being pushed off the counter, then the steerer has enough opportunity to get out of the way. But equally she could be drowning!

[Guest]

I'd day that that evidence is unproven. Firstly, it is drastically foreshortened and does not show water actually landing on the boat. Secondly, looking at where the tiller pin is, bearing in mind most advice points towards having sufficient forward room to avoid being pushed off the counter, then the steerer has enough opportunity to get out of the way. But equally she could be drowning!

 

I'm not getting into an argument about something as trivial as this Mike.

 

Needless to say she and the boat (As Tony also says) got a good soaking, or rather her legs did. If you think I am engaging in making something up for gawd knows what purpose then so be it.

 

Other locks where as bad too, particularly ISTR Dobson's staircase where her finger was permanently on the bilge pump switch (which was not automatic on our boat).

 

As I say so often on here these days believe what you like.

[johnmck]

Our boat is 58'6" without buttons. We,or rather I, got a soaking descending both Bingley rises last year. But, not as badly as in 2012, when we had to pump out the engine ole!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

I'm not getting into an argument about something as trivial as this Mike.

 

Needless to say she and the boat (As Tony also says) got a good soaking, or rather her legs did. If you think I am engaging in making something up for gawd knows what purpose then so be it.

 

Other locks where as bad too, particularly ISTR Dobson's staircase where her finger was permanently on the bilge pump switch (which was not automatic on our boat).

 

As I say so often on here these days believe what you like.

Bingley Five rise does have leaking gates but bear in mind that the reason that they leak is because boaters scuff up against the gate edge as they pass through (particularly if they get away with only opening one gate, a practice usually stopped by the velokkies), so we only have ourselves to blame for this.

 

I found that with my trad stern it was just a case of shut the doors and stand inside them and the 'problem' was sorted, I hardly got wet at all.

 

I would be concerned about having to keep the bilge pump on all the time as that suggests to me a problem with drainage on the boat, what happens when it rains? does that all go into the bilge as well? On one of the locks on the Five Rise I had water pouring onto the back deck deck but virtually none went into the bilge, it just drained over the side.

[ditchcrawler]

 

The canal was built to take, and does take, L&L 'shortboats' which are 62' x 14'.

The leakage through gates is solely down to years of neglect by BW and now C&RT, with gates and cills either fouled with rubbish or left well overdue for re-fitting or replacing.

I often wonder how many badly leaking gates would be fixed by sweeping the cill

[Guest]

Bingley Five rise does have leaking gates but bear in mind that the reason that they leak is because boaters scuff up against the gate edge as they pass through (particularly if they get away with only opening one gate, a practice usually stopped by the velokkies), so we only have ourselves to blame for this.

 

I found that with my trad stern it was just a case of shut the doors and stand inside them and the 'problem' was sorted, I hardly got wet at all.

 

I would be concerned about having to keep the bilge pump on all the time as that suggests to me a problem with drainage on the boat, what happens when it rains? does that all go into the bilge as well? On one of the locks on the Five Rise I had water pouring onto the back deck deck but virtually none went into the bilge, it just drained over the side.

Yes I was concerned too. However it was significantly more water than mere rain, as I have already said.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

It's perfectly possible, . . . it's just that you and your boat will get soaking in every lock because of the crappy state the canal has been allowed to get into.

And of course back in the 'good old days' I'm positive that they would have replaced the gates every 4 years then . I pick the 4 year figure since it was in 2012 that the five rise were last drained for renovation www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-16775606 but of course that may not fit with the boring repetition of what a crap job CRT are doing, does it??

Edited May 13, 2016 by Wanderer Vagabond

[ditchcrawler]

And of course back in the 'good old days' I'm positive that they would have replaced the gates every 4 years then . I pick the 4 year figure since it was in 2012 that the five rise were last drained for renovation http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-16775606 but of course that may not fit with the boring repetition of what a crap job CRT are doing, does it??

I think you have answered your own question, knackered after 4 years.

Edit

I couldn't get the link to work but I doubt they fitted new gates

Edited May 13, 2016 by ditchcrawler

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I think you have answered your own question, knackered after 4 years.

Edit

I couldn't get the link to work but I doubt they fitted new gates

Like I said if people didn't scuff the gates they might last a bit longer.

[Tony Dunkley]

I often wonder how many badly leaking gates would be fixed by sweeping the cill

 

Quite a big proportion of the serious leaks do start with items like brickends and various sized and shaped pieces of scrap metal and miscellaneous junk jammed between the gates and the cills at both ends of locks.

 

If these objects aren't removed fairly promptly after first 'fouling' a cill then they quickly cause enough physical damage to the 'fit' of both gate and cill for there to subsequently be a permanent leak even after, and if, the fouling is removed.

 

Attending to fouled gates, and paddles/sluices, was once a frequent and routine maintenance task for lock keepers and lengthsmen, but nowadays is one the many minor but essential day to day jobs which receive no attention whatsoever.

 

Despite the mistaken beliefs of some of the BW/C&RT apologists, who haven't been around on the waterways long enough to remember the times when routine preventative maintenance was treated as something of a priority, the minor leakage between the mitre posts low down on bottom gates, a very small and insignificant quantity of which is attributable to wear caused by narrowbeam boats using one gate on a broad lock, is of no real consequence compared to the volume of water which gets past fouled/damaged cills and gates.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Hawkmoth]

 

I'm not getting into an argument about something as trivial as this Mike.

 

Needless to say she and the boat (As Tony also says) got a good soaking, or rather her legs did. If you think I am engaging in making something up for gawd knows what purpose then so be it.

 

Other locks where as bad too, particularly ISTR Dobson's staircase where her finger was permanently on the bilge pump switch (which was not automatic on our boat).

 

As I say so often on here these days believe what you like.

Completely agree with you. We've done the L&L over the Pennines several times, our boat was actually 61ft., and we had no trouble other than getting damned wet and needing a good bilge pump.

Bob

[ditchcrawler]

Like I said if people didn't scuff the gates they might last a bit longer.

A good argument until you go down the S Oxford and see where all the three and a half foot boats have been going out of one gate and worn the miters

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Quite a big proportion of the serious leaks do start with items like brickends and various sized and shaped pieces of scrap metal and miscellaneous junk jammed between the gates and the cills at both ends of locks.

 

If these objects aren't removed fairly promptly after first 'fouling' a cill then they quickly cause enough physical damage to the 'fit' of both gate and cill for there to subsequently be a permanent leak even after, and if, the fouling is removed.

 

Attending to fouled gates, and paddles/sluices, was once a frequent and routine maintenance task for lock keepers and lengthsmen, but nowadays is one the many minor but essential day to day jobs which receive no attention whatsoever.

 

Despite the mistaken beliefs of some of the BW/C&RT apologists, who haven't been around on the waterways long enough to remember the times when routine preventative maintenance was treated as something of a priority, the minor leakage between the mitre posts low down on bottom gates, a very small and insignificant quantity of which is attributable to wear caused by narrowbeam boats using one gate on a broad lock, is of no real consequence compared to the volume of water which gets past fouled/damaged cills and gates.

That'll be back in the 1940's/1950's when Tom Rolt/Robert Aickman was trying to stop them closing the canals altogether then would it? Or are we talking prior to that, back before the last war when canals last competitively carried freight? I must get a pair of those rose coloured spectacles

[Tony Dunkley]

That'll be back in the 1940's/1950's when Tom Rolt/Robert Aickman was trying to stop them closing the canals altogether then would it? Or are we talking prior to that, back before the last war when canals last competitively carried freight? I must get a pair of those rose coloured spectacles

 

No need to go back that far, the 1960's and early 1970's will do just fine.

No need for rose tinted specs either, . . . a reasonably good memory and living and working on the waterways that still carried commercial traffic from the time I left school is quite sufficient.

Where from, and when, did you acquire all your astounding insight and knowledge?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

No need to go back that far, the 1960's and early 1970's will do just fine.

No need for rose tinted specs either, . . . a reasonably good memory and living and working on the waterways that still carried commercial traffic from the time I left school is quite sufficient.

Where from, and when, did you acquire all your astounding insight and knowledge?

And the amount of freight passing though Bingley Five rise in 1970 would be how much?

[Tony Dunkley]

And the amount of freight passing though Bingley Five rise in 1970 would be how much?

 

Irrelevant.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Irrelevant.

Unfortunately not irrelevant, the canals that had the golden era of maintenance you seem to remember were the ones still in high use carrying coal to power stations. The Aire and Calder, Sheffield & South Yorkshire, Trent, et al. The rest were left to rot so the maintenance on the Bingley five rise would have been no better than today (if not a lot worse) since there is no commercial advantage in maintaining a waterway that isn't being used much. Most of the canals in the London area (Grand Union,Lee Navigation, etc) were where people went to dump their rubbish, no sign of any Lengthsmen or lock-keepers in decades.And since you repeatedly tell us how crap BW were before CRT who precisely was doing all of this wonderful maintenance you refer to?

[Tony Dunkley]

Unfortunately not irrelevant, the canals that had the golden era of maintenance you seem to remember were the ones still in high use carrying coal to power stations. The Aire and Calder, Sheffield & South Yorkshire, Trent, et al. The rest were left to rot so the maintenance on the Bingley five rise would have been no better than today (if not a lot worse) since there is no commercial advantage in maintaining a waterway that isn't being used much. Most of the canals in the London area (Grand Union,Lee Navigation, etc) were where people went to dump their rubbish, no sign of any Lengthsmen or lock-keepers in decades.And since you repeatedly tell us how crap BW were before CRT who precisely was doing all of this wonderful maintenance you refer to?

 

Wrong.

Whoever, or whatever, was the source of all that tripe clearly knows as little as it is apparent that you do.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Wrong.

Whoever, or whatever, was the source of all that tripe clearly knows as little as it is apparent that you do.

Oh, so the Kennet and Avon never fell into disuse and decay prior to it's restoration then, that may involve some re-writing of history I believe.And of course you forgot to tell us who was doing all of the maintenance, it can't have been BW since you repeatedly and endlessly tell us how crap they were and it was obviously in the days before CRT, so who was it then?

[Timx]

 

I think TG means going East on the L&L that the locks get tighter and a 60ft boat (fenders up) can travel the L&L with minimal issues.

 

Barry the lockie told me once the chambers on the Five and Three Rises were a few inches shorter than the locks further West and East (On the L&L) and this was why found I particularly tight in those flights.

 

Tight but doable.

 

After you leave the L&L and get to the A&C the locks are mahoosive (Bank Dole Lock onto the Aire aside but you will still be fine, we were).

Thanks for that, Sorry for my ignorance on this as only recently bought a n.b, so you say fenders up, but the stern fender only covers the rudder, so that would not make a difference, and the front one is a bit to the side anyway, so wouldn't make much difference in size, but it does make a bit of a cushion. Sorry for my q but don't want to start and end up going back down again

[Guest]

Thanks for that, Sorry for my ignorance on this as only recently bought a n.b, so you say fenders up, but the stern fender only covers the rudder, so that would not make a difference, and the front one is a bit to the side anyway, so wouldn't make much difference in size, but it does make a bit of a cushion. Sorry for my q but don't want to start and end up going back down again

 

If you put your tiller hard over you can effectively shorten your boat by the length the rudder protrudes beyond the stern, so the presence of the rear fender can indeed make a difference.

 

This might need a bit of judicious removal/refitting of the handle and tiller pin of course, as a hard over tiller can get caught in a lock or on the gates.

[Pluto]

I often wonder how many badly leaking gates would be fixed by sweeping the cill

One aspect of the problem is that people now use their engine to stop the boat on entering a lock, rather than strapping using a rope. The result is that rubbish on the bottom is stirred up and ends up on the sill in much greater amounts than would have happened in the days of commercial carrying. The reduction in dredging is a further factor. When travelling on a 1250 ton boat in Germany, the captain said they were expected to have the boat out of gear whilst in the vicinity of the sill to prevent rubbish being deposited.

 

The other aspect is the change in health & Safety legislation, which makes it a much more onerous and time consuming task to drain a lock and to clean the sill. It also makes running a saw down the mitre, the traditional way of improving the seal, much less likely to be done as scaffolding would be required.

 

In short, the excessive leakage is much to do with the way people operate boats today, using the engine to slow the boat entering a lock, and on wide locks not opening both gates, which causes damage to the mitre, damage which causes leakage, particularly on riser locks, and is expensive to repair.

[Tony Dunkley]

One aspect of the problem is that people now use their engine to stop the boat on entering a lock, rather than strapping using a rope. The result is that rubbish on the bottom is stirred up and ends up on the sill in much greater amounts than would have happened in the days of commercial carrying. The reduction in dredging is a further factor. When travelling on a 1250 ton boat in Germany, the captain said they were expected to have the boat out of gear whilst in the vicinity of the sill to prevent rubbish being deposited.

 

The other aspect is the change in health & Safety legislation, which makes it a much more onerous and time consuming task to drain a lock and to clean the sill. It also makes running a saw down the mitre, the traditional way of improving the seal, much less likely to be done as scaffolding would be required.

 

In short, the excessive leakage is much to do with the way people operate boats today, using the engine to slow the boat entering a lock, and on wide locks not opening both gates, which causes damage to the mitre, damage which causes leakage, particularly on riser locks, and is expensive to repair.

 

Nice theory, but it doesn't stand up if you compare the quantity and rate of water movement caused by today's shallow draught pleasure craft with their relatively small propellers holding back hard into a downhill lock with the quantity and rate of water movement back into the chamber between the top cill and the bottom of an uphill loaded boat leaving a lock.

The idea fares no better if you consider the effect of a pleasure boat holding back hard over the cill into an uphill lock. The outrush of displaced water between the bottom cill and the underneath of a loaded boat entering an uphill lock is many times greater and far more likely to wash rubbish and junk back against the bottom cill.

 

Routine clearing of rubbish and junk fouling cills didn't ever necessitate stanking off and draining locks, it normally needs no more than a few minutes with a keb, and only in rare and exceptional circumstances is anything more needed.

 

Sawing down the mitres is/was rarely done except when putting in new gates, but 'letting in' a new 'fit' [ approx 3'' x 1.5'' wood strip] on the mitre posts, bottom beam, and occasionally the heel posts, on old gates was common practice.

 

Excessive leakage from between the mitres at the lower level on bottom gates is NOT due to damage from boats, the primary cause is that these days the collars don't get adjusted and pulled back to stop the top ends of the mitre posts from closing up too far ahead of the bottom ends.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[ditchcrawler]

I didn't think to look when we were at the work shop at Bradey but I wonder if they make the gates with a piece let into the mitre, if so it would be relatively easy to change them as sacrificial wear strips and if made in two lengths the one above the water level of an empty lock could be changed from a boat.

[onionbargee]

Speaking to a CRT man last year who told me that they no longer clean out the gate recesses on GU locks, so the gate mitres are constantly rubbed by boats however carefull you are. Getting a pair of boats breasted up into a wide lock is not garentee'd anymore.

Edited May 14, 2016 by onionbargee