Narrow Boat World Article About Our Incident at Hillmorton on 25th August

[CDS]

Getting a bit like War and Peace,with people getting upset as well.Is there anything

else to add?

[Guest]

Getting a bit like War and Peace,with people getting upset as well.Is there anything

else to add?

Indeed

 

(I think I'm losing the will to live....)

Edited November 3, 2015 by MJG

[MtB]

Getting a bit like War and Peace,with people getting upset as well.Is there anything

else to add?

 

 

I nominate this for the 'pointless post of the week' award!

[Athy]

I did read the original thread and parcipated in it. As I said, I do make mistakes..

[nicknorman]

I did note that, and even more reason to keep ones eyes peeled I would have thought.

Picking up on NickNormans points....Cath making the call is not the same as the skipper (who the lockie is supposed to take commands from according to CRT's guidelines). Point taken about trying to reverse once the boat starts to hang, it's probably too late for that.

To clarify my view about discussing it with with the lockie first, I'm just suggesting it would have been better to engage with him before dragging him through a public forum. Ironically this thread is about Alan's family being mentioned on a public blog without his approval. I wonder if Alan asked the lockie if it was Ok to reference him on this forum before starting the initial thread. I know it!s not quite name and shame but I doubt any of us would be happy about it.

You come back to the person in charge being the one who is driving. This is an incorrect assumption. If CRT are teaching the volockies to ignore any comment or instruction from anyone who is not the driver, that is another black mark for them.

 

When an "emergency stop" signal is given by anyone, it should be acted on first, and questions asked second. If

[valrene9600]

Recently went up the Lapworth flight from Kingswood jct. Around about half way up a VLK came up from below and started emptying each lock ahead of us. I was impressed by the way he waited every time for me to open the top paddle before he wound up the bottom paddle ahead of me. Saved a lot of water just rushing over the overflow.

[mayalld]

I did note that, and even more reason to keep ones eyes peeled I would have thought.

 

Picking up on NickNormans points....Cath making the call is not the same as the skipper (who the lockie is supposed to take commands from according to CRT's guidelines).

 

OK, that settles it then!

 

If CRT VLTs are only going to take orders from the skipper, and are going to ignore stop commands from anybody who isn't the skipper, then I feel fully vindicated in my decision NOT to allow them to operate any lock I am in.

 

"DROP THE PADDLES" means just that, and must be obeys WHOEVER calls it, with one exception...

 

The one exception is where the skipper countermands it.

[mango]

Regarding your first sentence, I don't think it is your memory. The situation improved dramatically after BW introduced Customer Service Standards quite a few years ago, particularly with regard to fendering between tops of gates and balance beams (a common cause of hang-ups) -

 

I believe that this part of the CSS is still in force as part of CaRT's minimum safety standards.

 

This was one of the two areas in which I felt that Alan should have made a complaint.

 

I'm going back to what the locks were like thirty or forty years ago. I'm sure there were many more protruding nuts and bolts etc in these days.

[Paul C]

I believe a similar debacle occurs when a warship locks through onto the MSC. In the vast majority of situations, the lockkeepers ask the boat crew to pass the line, and its duly put ashore - common sense. With warships, the lockkeepers can ask the crew until they're blue in the face, but they just stand there doing nothing until someone asks the captain, and the captain asks his crew to do it....then things occur....

[mango]

 

 

I nominate this for the 'pointless post of the week' award!

I'm not sure whether you will get 'runner-up' or 'commended'.

[RichardN]

Cath making the call is not the same as the skipper (who the lockie is supposed to take commands from according to CRT's guidelines)

 

I may be reading too much between the lines.

 

Is there any reason why Cath can't be classed as the skipper?

[Athy]

I'm not sure whether you will get 'runner-up' or 'commended'.

Looks like being a damn' close race.

 

I may be reading too much between the lines.

 

Is there any reason why Cath can't be classed as the skipper?

Yes, mentioned earlier in the thread I think - she was on the bank at the time.

[bassplayer]

You come back to the person in charge being the one who is driving. This is an incorrect assumption. If CRT are teaching the volockies to ignore any comment or instruction from anyone who is not the driver, that is another black mark for them.

When an "emergency stop" signal is given by anyone, it should be acted on first, and questions asked second. If

...as I said earlier...when you were captain of a commercial aircraft and needed a pee, you had no control over avoiding a potential collision. Your co pilot did however. As far as I'm concerned the 'driver' is the one in charge at that point as they have control. Maybe CRT's procedures are based on that logic.

 

I agree everyone is responsible for safety BTW.

[john6767]

Recently went up the Lapworth flight from Kingswood jct. Around about half way up a VLK came up from below and started emptying each lock ahead of us. I was impressed by the way he waited every time for me to open the top paddle before he wound up the bottom paddle ahead of me. Saved a lot of water just rushing over the overflow.

I have said it before on these threads, on Lapworth they seem very good. It may just be the one guy who if I remember correctly used to have a boat he kept in the pound by the canal shop. He sets the locks for you and does not really do anything with the lock that the boat is in except for perhaps shutting a gate. If you are on your own you may want different help, but with 2 of us that is just the help that we need.

 

I was gonig to say it would be much better it all the VLK's took that approach, but on somewhere like Hillmorton with just 3 locks that are well spaced out it would not work very well. So it does beg the question as to why have VLK's where there are just 23 locks to do, they would be better focused on longer flights, when setting ahead is a big help. For example locally at Hatton, where if you are lucky you may get some help in the top half of the flight, but you don't get met by a VLK when you arrive at the bottom lock.

[alan_fincher]

Cath making the call is not the same as the skipper (who the lockie is supposed to take commands from according to CRT's guidelines).

 

You can't even be bothered to read the materials presented in front of you, even when highlighted as a direct quote.

 

The CRT materials make no reference to "the skipper" or the person at the tiller, and actually say....

 

The boater has the overall responsibility/control. The lock keepers are there to advise, guide and assist.

Are you claiming that Cath arriving with a windlass in her hand, and accompanying her boat, ready to work the lock, had someone else not got to a paddle first is not a boater?

 

We totally despair, and refuse to engage with you further, if you continue to invent your own brand of nonsense.

[RichardN]

I believe a similar debacle occurs when a warship locks through onto the MSC. In the vast majority of situations, the lockkeepers ask the boat crew to pass the line, and its duly put ashore - common sense. With warships, the lockkeepers can ask the crew until they're blue in the face, but they just stand there doing nothing until someone asks the captain, and the captain asks his crew to do it....then things occur....

 

Going even further off topic: We (and a load of other boats) shared a lock with a warship. You get used to people putting out fenders when they see a narrowboat coming in but it does focus the mind a bit when you just see a line of very young crew on one of the decks holding some rather efficient looking guns . . . .

[CDS]

 

 

I nominate this for the 'pointless post of the week' award!

Whats pointless about it? the skipper is in charge of the boat,as regards lock keepers,they are volunteers nothing more.

As regards training of Lock keepers it will vary between poor and non existent,what intelligent boater would put their safety

in the hands of another?

The original poster put the incident in the public domain and then cried foul when another forum took it up.

CRT will have little to offer as that is the nature of the beast,what Alan expects,I don't know?

Edited November 3, 2015 by CDS

[Paul C]

...as I said earlier...when you were captain of a commercial aircraft and needed a pee, you had no control over avoiding a potential collision. Your co pilot did however. As far as I'm concerned the 'driver' is the one in charge at that point as they have control. Maybe CRT's procedures are based on that logic.

 

I agree everyone is responsible for safety BTW.

 

I don't know how much experience you have of commercial shipping, but the captain hardly ever takes "the con(trols)" in the normal day-to-day running - its a non-complicated job which is entrusted to another officer. What's a co pilot in the context of shipping??

 

Maybe you've inadvertently spotted the fatal flaw in CRT's procedures - they simply don't know who the "skipper" is without checking verbally, and that assuming its the person at the controls is unwise.

[nicknorman]

. As far as I'm concerned the 'driver' is the one in charge at that point as they have control.

Then you remain incorrect.

[RichardN]

Is there any reason why Cath can't be classed as the skipper?

 

she was on the bank at the time.

 

I understand that. My comment was in reply to a comment that "Cath making the call is not the same as the skipper (who the lockie is supposed to take commands from according to CRT's guidelines)" What I don't understand is the assumption that she can't be classed as the skipper?

[bassplayer]

You can't even be bothered to read the materials presented in front of you, even when highlighted as a direct quote.

 

The CRT materials make no reference to "the skipper" or the person at the tiller, and actually say....

 

 

 

Are you claiming that Cath arriving with a windlass in her hand, and accompanying her boat, ready to work the lock, had someone else not got to a paddle first is not a boater?

 

We totally despair, and refuse to engage with you further, if you continue to invent your own brand of nonsense.

Whenever I go through a lock the lockie usually checks with the skipper (OK the one steering to clarify) before opening paddles. They don't normally check with the person with the windlass in their hand. I think that!s good practice.

 

No need to despair, I'll leave you to it.

[john6767]

 

 

I understand that. My comment was in reply to a comment that "Cath making the call is not the same as the skipper (who the lockie is supposed to take commands from according to CRT's guidelines)" What I don't understand is the assumption that she can't be classed as the skipper?

Where does it say that the VLK is taking instruction from the "skipper", I thought is just said "boater".

[ditchcrawler]

 

It is not unknown for CRT to try and impose confidentiality when maybe the have to say sorry

Doesn't one normally have to pay money for that privilege, I can't see Alan being bought off

[Paul C]

Whenever I go through a lock the lockie usually checks with the skipper (OK the one steering to clarify) before opening paddles. They don't normally check with the person with the windlass in their hand. I think that!s good practice.

 

No need to despair, I'll leave you to it.

 

I hope I don't share a broad lock with you - you'll get very confused initially.

[bassplayer]

I hope I don't share a broad lock with you - you'll get very confused initially.

Trust me...the feeling is mutual...