Seeking Boat Owners - Photography Courses Worsley to Castlefield

[kevinl]

Why don't you use the hire boat business based at Bridgewater marina at Boothstown?

I agree, I'd hire a boat from somewhere like the link below then come on here and ask if anyone wants a free day out driving it for you, that'll get round all the issues as long as no money changes hands There's quite a few on here in the North West who might be interested. The advantage of a day boat is they usually have more/bigger windows.

K

 

http://karensdayboathire.co.uk/index.php/how-to-find-us

[NigelatNWPC]

Thanks Kevin that is an option we are looking into as well. I feel I need to add that any arrangement with a commercial operator would be with their full understanding...I wouldn't want to add any more to the list of accusations being levelled at me!

[Delta9]

 

No, actually it's you poking your noses in where they are not needed.

 

Either you have a boat you would like them to use, in which case how you handle it is between you, the OP and any authorities (are you CRB checked or whatever it's called now?) or you don't and it's none of your business.

 

Doing the jobsworth bit helps nobody and certainly doesn't help to facilitate what seems like a bit of fun.

If you're not careful, your ***** will get jealous of all the ***** you are typing...

Edited October 19, 2015 by DeanS
language

[Tony Brooks]

 

No, actually it's you poking your noses in where they are not needed.

 

Either you have a boat you would like them to use, in which case how you handle it is between you, the OP and any authorities (are you CRB checked or whatever it's called now?) or you don't and it's none of your business.

 

Doing the jobsworth bit helps nobody and certainly doesn't help to facilitate what seems like a bit of fun.

 

Except no one has been trying to do a "jobsworth" as you put it.

 

Someone who is passing himself of as a expert (that a legal term) on photography comes on here and asks (or some would say attempts to entice) private boat owners be party to an enterprise that could potentially get both parties into serious trouble in the event of an accident.

 

There was and as yet is no indication that the OP or his company has any expertise in the field of regulations in respect of taking paying members of the public (OK so maybe no paying the boater as such) for trips on boats. Regrettably it seems that there are also naive boaters who would be happy to enter such a proposition without being fully aware of what they MIGHT be getting into.

 

In those circumstance it is perfectly reasonable and valid to point out to the OP that things are not as straight forward as they may seem and to list the areas the the OP needs to research and consider carefully.

 

Like Delta9 I do not care a fig if a boater cooperates in the full knowledge of what they are doing. I do, however, care if a boater gets sucked into trouble because they did not know and assumed the proposer had done their homework and got the regulation issues sorted. TBH I do not really care much if the OP KNOWINGLY goes ahead and gets themselves into a lot of trouble. As I said the MCA and HSE are not bodies to be tangled with lightly.

[Delta9]

Thanks Kevin that is an option we are looking into as well. I feel I need to add that any arrangement with a commercial operator would be with their full understanding...I wouldn't want to add any more to the list of accusations being levelled at me!

Nobody has accused you of anything, we were trying to point out to you that renting a private boat is a quite complex affair if you wish to do it legally.

[Pie Eater]

Nigel

 

The canal is closed in the Boothstown area from 02.11.15 to 29.02.16. I am not sure if this will affect your plans.

 

Good luck

 

Steve

[NigelatNWPC]

Hi Steve, yes we're aware of that but it wouldn't disrupt our plans to any great extent as winter months are poor for photography so we don't run many courses then.

 

Thanks.

[DeanS]

That will be enough name calling chaps. Having read the entire thread, all I've found is that some folk have tried to advise the OP in some of the legal issues, some think that's being a jobsworth, some personalities have clashed as is always the case, and the OP is on the back foot, feeling accused of things they shouldn't be, on such a lovely friendly forum. Can we all strive for some friendliness, so mods don't need to watch the thread To the OP, this sort of mix of responses is normal for this forum. You would get the same if you were asking about toilet types...which prompts me to ask...how long will your group of photographers require toilet facilities on board....

thanks all.

[NigelatNWPC]

I have to confess Dean that toilet types hadn't featured high on my list of things to consider...

 

I look forward to being educated on this by some of your more forthright members!

[Alenafour]

 

Except no one has been trying to do a "jobsworth" as you put it.

 

Someone who is passing himself of as a expert (that a legal term) on photography comes on here and asks (or some would say attempts to entice) private boat owners be party to an enterprise that could potentially get both parties into serious trouble in the event of an accident.

 

There was and as yet is no indication that the OP or his company has any expertise in the field of regulations in respect of taking paying members of the public (OK so maybe no paying the boater as such) for trips on boats. Regrettably it seems that there are also naive boaters who would be happy to enter such a proposition without being fully aware of what they MIGHT be getting into.

 

In those circumstance it is perfectly reasonable and valid to point out to the OP that things are not as straight forward as they may seem and to list the areas the the OP needs to research and consider carefully.

 

Like Delta9 I do not care a fig if a boater cooperates in the full knowledge of what they are doing. I do, however, care if a boater gets sucked into trouble because they did not know and assumed the proposer had done their homework and got the regulation issues sorted. TBH I do not really care much if the OP KNOWINGLY goes ahead and gets themselves into a lot of trouble. As I said the MCA and HSE are not bodies to be tangled with lightly.

 

'expert' a legal term? - your pomposity is in danger of lifting you off the ground Sir.

 

I wouldn't come within a country mile of this forum if I wanted to make an informal arrangement for a few bods to have an outing.

 

Do you have guests sign a disclaimer before they set foot on your boat?

 

And as you so belatedly point out "OK so maybe no paying the boater as such" this is not a hire boat.

 

And if we are going down the rabbit hole of ridiculousness; how about a hire boat would not automatically be covered for a professional enterprise such as this?

[Tony Brooks]

I did not mention hire boats. I said " It all sounds a nice idea but I bet it would be far easier to leave the boating part to skippered hire outfits who have their boats built to regulations, are insured for such use, are regularly inspected, and who have properly qualified skippers." That does not cover an ordinary hire boat. However a self drive hire boat is far more likely to at least have been built to comply or be able to meet any MCA demands.

 

The term "expert" in law places a far higher degree of knowledge and competence on someone who is conducting themselves in a way that would lead "the man on a Clapham omnibus " to believe they are an expert. To illustrate this your posts when read with the rest would tend to make such a man believe that you are not an expert so you have more leeway to give misleading advice and information than someone who may be considered an "expert". Some may consider myself to be an "expert" in certain boating topics and it is for this reason I word my replies as I do. You will note that I have not given specific advice (as others have not). I and others have pointed out areas where the OP needs to carry out much further investigation.

 

I think that it will turn out that the most realistic way for the OP to be sure they are not breaking a myramid of regulations is to use the services of a skippered trip boat, but that is just an opinion and it is up to the OP to make the decision.

 

The trouble is that the OP is not proposing that "he takes a few bods on an outing". As far a I can see his proposal is to ornanise for a paid for photography course part of which involve a boat trip. That means the boat will be carrying fair paying passengers even if the owner is charitable enough to do it for free. This is the part that needs proper expert (that word again) advice. No one has suggested that private boaters can not take a few friends for a trip with no payment in cash or kind. The only thing to watch is that the boat is not overloaded and from what I have seen on RCD plates three passengers plus owner can be the maximum allowed but this varies from boat to boat.

 

I have refrained from commenting on your posts and the impression of you they give so far and in the light of this topic an done other I would suggest that you must have a great big beard and live under bridges. I find you rude.

[tidal]

Just out of curiosity and because I have in the past run a small trip boat for the same purposes (though not on canals) I had a good long look at the CaRT site and found this

 

"If you are carrying 12 passengers or fewer please tick here to confirm that you have read the Small Passenger Boat Code and understand that your boat needs a non-private BSS Certificate and that the skipper(s) will need to hold a Boatmaster’s Licence (or equivalent)"

Obviously this is a commercial restriction and won't apply to the canal in question (probably) but it would be something I would consider both from a boat owner's and organiser's perspective.

But folk have to make these decisions for themselves

[NigelatNWPC]

Thank you Tidal. If an arrangement with a private owner turns out to be the more practical route these are exactly the points that we would expect to include in an agreement and would I'm sure be a condition of the public liability insurance anyway. We work with a specialist insurer in this field.

Edited October 19, 2015 by NigelatNWPC

[tidal]

I always like to help if I can

[Ray T]

Nigelat NWPC, have you considered the style of boat you wish to use?

 

My thoughts are it would be best to hire a day boat if possible, example:

 

 

http://www.chesterdayboathire.co.uk/Boats.htm

 

This style of boat illustrated here can accommodate 8 people, doesn't need a certificated "skipper". It has toilet facilities to suite and a hob etc for cups of tea and so forth. Lots of room for your class to move about as well.

 

This is just an example, there are many other firms that hire similar boats, usually about £100 - £150 per day.

 

Better than this idea I would suggest:

• 

  Or get the use of an ex working boat and just stick everybody in the hold.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Ray T

[Southern Star]

Agree with Ray T here, hiring a day boat would seem to be by far the best and easiest solution for the OP.

[Liam]

I'm a Bridgewater boater so if you want to have a chat give me a call.

 

Contact details on my website

 

www.longfordcanalservices.co.uk

[NigelatNWPC]

Thanks Ray T and Liam. Useful info.

[Tony Brooks]

Just out of curiosity and because I have in the past run a small trip boat for the same purposes (though not on canals) I had a good long look at the CaRT site and found this

 

"If you are carrying 12 passengers or fewer please tick here to confirm that you have read the Small Passenger Boat Code and understand that your boat needs a non-private BSS Certificate and that the skipper(s) will need to hold a Boatmaster’s Licence (or equivalent)"

Obviously this is a commercial restriction and won't apply to the canal in question (probably) but it would be something I would consider both from a boat owner's and organiser's perspective.

 

But folk have to make these decisions for themselves

 

I think part of that relates to the original Board of Trade and now MCA regulations. I I am correct then it will apply to all navigations although the Bridgewater may word it differently. It would not surprise me if, in light of the close connections with the Manchester Ship Canal Company, if the Bridgewater did not impose stricter regulations but Tidal seems to be the one to ask.

 

Edited to add:

 

IF such use does come under MCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency)

 

Thank you Tidal. If an arrangement with a private owner turns out to be the more practical route these are exactly the points that we would expect to include in an agreement and would I'm sure be a condition of the public liability insurance anyway. We work with a specialist insurer in this field.

 

I am a little concerned about the blandness of this statement. I doubt simply "putting points in an agreement/contract" would be enough to absolve the company from the need to make diligent checks which I suspect would include photo copies of the boaters BSC, their qualifications, the RCD documents (if applicable), their insurance policy (not the certificate), and if MCA regulations do turn out to be applicable the latest hull survey/MCA inspection documents. Reading some of the other replies suggests that many private boaters seem to be somewhat cavalier in their approach to this sort of thing. Insurers seem to be able to void a policy when a claim is made for the slightest reason.

 

Edited to add:

 

If such a use does come under MCA (Maritime & Coastguard Agency) regulation I suspect breaking them or colluding with others to break them would be a criminal rather than a civil offence.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Tony Brooks

[tidal]

In my case it was governed by MCA restrictions and yes I believe that transgressing the regs is a criminal offence.
I have no idea if those regs apply on the canal system

 

The bit I quoted however came from the CRT draft application for a commercial enterprise and forms part of the draft operating proposal for a "Skippered Passenger Boat" found on this page

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/business-and-trade/boating-business/application-process-and-fees

 

I didn't post it because I think that the enterprise should or should not go ahead but merely as a consideration for all sides.

 

ETA

The small passenger boat code is found here and does apply to canals

Edited October 20, 2015 by tidal

[Tony Brooks]

I think much of the problem is that OP does not hold, or if they do has not disclosed, important information BEFORE seeking to get ordinary boat owners to join his enterprise. The numbers involved will be critical in deciding if the small passenger boat applies. If it does then things are easier but not much because there is still the matter of the boat complying with the stricter BSS conditions, the skippers qualifications, the extra insurance that will probably be needed and exactly how the maximum number of persons quoted on the RCD plate might affect the issues.

 

If the numbers do require the boat to be operated under MCA regulations them I am almost certain the idea is a total non-starter as far as private boats are concerned. However I am sure one of the Manchester "party boats" would be more than happy to take such a booking.

[Cheshire cat]

Thorne Marine run two day hire boats although I must say I don't think I saw them this season. I'm sure Liam will have come across them if they are still operating.

[Pie Eater]

Thorne Marine run two day hire boats although I must say I don't think I saw them this season. I'm sure Liam will have come across them if they are still operating.

i think that they only run one now and the other 2 have been sold.

 

Steve

[NigelatNWPC]

Thanks for all the replies (well, the constructive ones, anyway....)

 

A discussion with a day boat operator has been very productive and that looks favourite.

[Tony Brooks]

I am pleased about that. However plaese tread with caution and get the MCA's views on the matter. I am not altogether sure the day boat operator would be clued up on the implications of having paying passengers aboard. I am not even sure that your students would be considered as paying passengers but my dealings with the MCA when I was considering setting up a roaming maintenance training boat makes me suspect that at least initially they would. If it turns out they would not be considered as paying passengers then as long as you stay within the maximum numbers it should be fine. However I think it is your company that needs to double check everything that has been mentioned and keep records to prove it has been done. A bit like your risk assessments really.