Multifuel stove and BSS

[rjasmith]

 

 

The link works for me but putting '8511' in the search box doesn't work. First, I need to click the 'Search British Standards' link on that page.

 

Then it demands I install Micro$oft 'Silverlight'. After doing that (and jumping a few more minor hoops) it gives me the Contents page and nothing more... grrrr...

 

Ah OK perhaps I was a bit skimpy with my instruction steps but I did say you have to use the MCL link to get to BSOL!

 

I also forgot that you need to have Silverlight. I first started using library linking to BSOL from seemingly most of the rest of UK's County Libraries and must have gone through that step years ago!

 

Once you've put 8511 in the BSOL "Search by Standard Numbers......." box and clicked "search" you should get a list of stds that match the "8511". But not all of those will be the right one for us as a no of standards will contain "8511" in their full number. Read the title words of each. In this case we want BS 8511:2010. Don't click on "View Details" but look to the right of the page where there are two buttons above the "In your Subscription" words. Click on the far right one (Quick View). Don't try the other one to download it as it will probably end up in MCL's machinery somewhere in Manchester, not on your machine - who knows!

 

After a download delay the whole doc should come up on your screen. Paging back and forth is a bit clunky (I use the panel at the top most of the time).

 

Before you swear at it - remember how much money this facility is saving you - the alternative is buying a copy for £150!

 

Richard

[MtB]

 

Ah OK perhaps I was a bit skimpy with my instruction steps but I did say you have to use the MCL link to get to BSOL!

 

I also forgot that you need to have Silverlight. I first started using library linking to BSOL from seemingly most of the rest of UK's County Libraries and must have gone through that step years ago!

 

Once you've put 8511 in the BSOL "Search by Standard Numbers......." box and clicked "search" you should get a list of stds that match the "8511". But not all of those will be the right one for us as a no of standards will contain "8511" in their full number. Read the title words of each. In this case we want BS 8511:2010. Don't click on "View Details" but look to the right of the page where there are two buttons above the "In your Subscription" words. Click on the far right one (Quick View). Don't try the other one to download it as it will probably end up in MCL's machinery somewhere in Manchester, not on your machine - who knows!

 

After a download delay the whole doc should come up on your screen. Paging back and forth is a bit clunky (I use the panel at the top most of the time).

 

Before you swear at it - remember how much money this facility is saving you - the alternative is buying a copy for £150!

 

Richard

 

 

Ok I'll try that tmoz!!

 

But there is of course, another 'alternative' (setting aside the pedant's argument that there can only ever be one alternative. If there are more, they are something else), which it to ignore the whole bloody thing, what with it being only advisory...

[rjasmith]

 

 

Ok I'll try that tmoz!!

 

But there is of course, another 'alternative' (setting aside the pedant's argument that there can only ever be one alternative. If there are more, they are something else), which it to ignore the whole bloody thing, what with it being only advisory...

 

True - but of course if you did have a stove accident the jolly old Insurance Co might have more wriggling room.

 

Richard (Good Night Mike!)

[Paul C]

In my experience, boatyards are naturally going to want to either cover their arse by sticking to BS8511, or not do the job at all. Remember, that tiles do almost nothing for heat insulation, they are merely a cosmetic/decorative item, its the heat board and the air gap which provides this. What doesn't help is that about 1% of stoves "out there" are actually installed to be fully compliant with B8511!!! I think the best thing you can do is to take a pragmatic view on the regs and comply with all the ones which it is possible to comply with, and if others make it a really difficult issue, look at many other boats and gain ideas for how they got round it/are safe without complying to the letter, on that aspect. For example, obviously you'd try your best to insulate properly around the level of the stove. But as the cabin side tapers as you go up, you could encroach a little on the 1 foot gap needed around the single flue (I assume you're not going towards a double flue?....and that your flue will be the standardish 4" one) towards the very top of it as it exits the boat.

[Mac of Cygnet]

As an aside, does anyone else have hammered copper sheet backing their stove? (And all the way to the ceiling behind the flue in my case.)

 

I have no idea what's behind it, but I'm not unduly concerned as I've never known it get more than pleasantly warm even when the stove is at full tilt, despite being only 9cm away from one corner. I guess that any heat is conducted away from hotspots very quickly, as well as being a good reflector.

[rjasmith]

As an aside, does anyone else have hammered copper sheet backing their stove? (And all the way to the ceiling behind the flue in my case.)

 

I have no idea what's behind it, but I'm not unduly concerned as I've never known it get more than pleasantly warm even when the stove is at full tilt, despite being only 9cm away from one corner. I guess that any heat is conducted away from hotspots very quickly, as well as being a good reflector.

 

I'm going to take the wall board/tiles all the way up on the saloon stove flue but I've used copper sheet behind the Premier flue in the back cabin. Behind the copper is 50mm rock wool on top of the 25mm PU sprayfoam (fire retardant) and then the cabin side steel. The copper is fixed to the battens on top of strips of fireboard. With the Premier going full tilt the copper only gets slightly warm to the touch near the stove.

 

I've "mocked up" the saloon stove installation and did some flue temperature tests a while ago on the flue with the Hamlet Hardy 4 going full tilt. I got about 250°C at the stove top and about 80°C near the roof. This is with a single skin conventional steel pipe flue of 100mm id. The roof collar remains at only about 25 - 30°C due to the enormous heat sink effect of the steel roof.

 

Of course the Soliftec tests on whether a double skin flue pipe helps to reduce fuel consumption are another debate entirely and it would be great if there were some other comparative tests done on that subject another day!

 

Richard

[David Mack]

 

Having seen what happens if the tiles are straight on to wood, there is no way in the world that I wouldn't now include a layer of heat resistant board, irrespective of what any regulations may, (or may not) say.

And for a graphic picture of what happens when you get it wrong look up the Lindy Lou report on the MAIB website. (On the BB at the moment so can't provide a link).

[Starcoaster]

I have seen the copper board reflector thing, but I have no idea how it is supposed to insulate or protect!

I have decided to take the pragmatic approach to the rest of it, but one thing I would like to find out about. The new stove (same kw rating as the old one) will go in the same place- but the new one is 8cm wider, so will, on one side, be 4cm closer to a cupboard (not an issue on the other side). There were never any problems with the old stove in terms of the cupboard, the tiles on the facing side are fine, behind is wood that is fine and undamaged, and the inside of the cupboard did not get hot when the stove was on.

But will any of this change with the new stove being 4cm closer?

[Paul C]

Doesn't need to be copper - you could use another metal such as stainless steel etc. It acts as a heatsink and any point heat sources will conduct across a wide area of the metal, so yes it will get hot but not enormously so. Its only really suitable for the upper areas (a flue is much cooler at the top than the bottom).

[rjasmith]

I have seen the copper board reflector thing, but I have no idea how it is supposed to insulate or protect!

I have decided to take the pragmatic approach to the rest of it, but one thing I would like to find out about. The new stove (same kw rating as the old one) will go in the same place- but the new one is 8cm wider, so will, on one side, be 4cm closer to a cupboard (not an issue on the other side). There were never any problems with the old stove in terms of the cupboard, the tiles on the facing side are fine, behind is wood that is fine and undamaged, and the inside of the cupboard did not get hot when the stove was on.

But will any of this change with the new stove being 4cm closer?

 

A metal reflector/screen is one of the back and side wall protection methods included in BS 8511 but it needs to be done properly to work ie have an air gap all the way up plus a vent at top and bottom to allow cooling air to convect behind and help with cooling the metal (as well as helping to distribute heat into the boat!). The metal will protect mostly by reflecting the stove heat while itself remaining (relatively) cool due to the air convection front and back. It's an alternative method to the use of non combustible insulating board

 

Pictures and acceptable gap clearances all there for the reading in the document! Why not have a read for yourself now I've suggested a way to do it for free! (see above).

 

The answer to the smaller gap with the bigger stove is that it is going to increase the temperature of the cupboard compared to the previous stove with the bigger gap but of course it will depend on whether the heat output on the new stove side is similar to the old stove. That will depend on differences in their internal design.

 

Richard

[peterboat]

i put a rayburn in earlier this year, i have taken precautions in terms of distance from combustibles and am now adding fireboard even though rayburn say their is no need. i am doing it for a just in case for the insurance company its simple to do now and not very expensive. i put the rayburn on rayburn stand which means its 4 inches clear from the wood floor. the rayburn has fireproof insulation underneath anyway so should be safe. from both mine and your point of view its our safety we are looking at protecting i dont want to be woken by a smoke alarm or barking taff, so fireboard gaps and reflective top sheet all sound good ideas good luck

 

peter

 

ps caps lock and shift key wont work bloody puter

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Thanks all. I think I may have been steered wrong by the boatyard that told me that fireboard under tiles was the rule for post-2013 installs, and I think I have previously assumed that there were additional rules on the distance of the fire from the walls.

 

 

Not Boat Safety Scheme requirements.... but possibly the boat yard may have the General Product Safety Directive at the back of its advice. i.e. the responsibilities to ensure the products it supplies (and fits where relevant) are safe.

 

So it is the BSS strong recommendation

 

Ah OK perhaps I was a bit skimpy with my instruction steps but I did say you have to use the MCL link to get to BSOL!

 

I also forgot that you need to have Silverlight. I first started using library linking to BSOL from seemingly most of the rest of UK's County Libraries and must have gone through that step years ago!

After a download delay the whole doc should come up on your screen. Paging back and forth is a bit clunky (I use the panel at the top most of the time).

 

Before you swear at it - remember how much money this facility is saving you - the alternative is buying a copy for £150!

 

Richard

 

 

That is fantastic advice. It worked for me. Quite slow. I have have appalling broadband, but I wouldn't want to do it on a dongle.

 

And also thumbs up for the other information you posted.

 

Rob

[John V]

i put a rayburn in earlier this year, i have taken precautions in terms of distance from combustibles and am now adding fireboard even though rayburn say their is no need. i am doing it for a just in case for the insurance company its simple to do now and not very expensive. i put the rayburn on rayburn stand which means its 4 inches clear from the wood floor. the rayburn has fireproof insulation underneath anyway so should be safe. from both mine and your point of view its our safety we are looking at protecting i dont want to be woken by a smoke alarm or barking taff, so fireboard gaps and reflective top sheet all sound good ideas good luck

 

peter

 

ps caps lock and shift key wont work bloody puter

 

 

I have found that the areas that need the most heat protection from a Rayburn are around the flue and balance box and on the deckhead above the hob area. The rest of the Rayburn back and sides radiates very little heat and even when going flat out you can put your hand on most of it, as I said though the flue balance box and the first section of flue is another matter. In the dark you can see a dull glow from mine if it has been overstoked

[peterboat]

i would agree with you their john havent had mine glowing but has been warm at times i am very impressed with the beast though makes a cracking stew mmmmm

[John V]

Yeah, Great for cooking, did a sausage and harlequin squash roast dish yesterday (Harlequin squash, sweet potato, onion and garlic, roasted with the sausages on top then some stock added to the dish for the last 15 min.)

Can't do any cooking on it today as trying to test the diesel heating controls......there has been no heating on the boat all day and it's still sitting at 22 degrees in the saloon....at this rate it's going to be quite late before the thermostat kicks in and the boiler fires up !!!

[John V]

Nearly 9 pm and it's still 21 degrees in the saloon.....I can see me getting to bed before it's cold enough for the heating to kick in