Hydraulic hybrid?

[ditchcrawler]

Will you hydraulic pump run from the gearbox pump when the gearbox is in neutral and reverse?

[dmr]

Boaters tend to fit oversized engines, 40 or even 50Hp is common, so they already potentially have loads of stopping power in reserve.

Bore glazing does not appear to be an issue with modern engines, and you can always use a lower additive oil if you think it is.

Higher revving modern engines don't sound so good in a narrowboat, but if you want a higher revving engine then fit a 3:1 ratio gearbox and a big prop and you will stop really well.

You Are solving a problem that does not exist.

 

.............Dave

and, the usual reason given for fitting big engines is to cope if you get stuck on a tidal bit with the tide going the wrong way. Stored energy will not help here.

A big slow revving engine is MORE efficient than a small high revving one, less friction!.

 

..............Dave

[Guest]

Will you hydraulic pump run from the gearbox pump when the gearbox is in neutral and reverse?

Yes, I think so - from what I can gather the drive output is taken from the primary gearbox shaft so power is always available. "Available on the PRM500 and PRM 750 the direct drive power take-off is driven directly from the gearbox input shaft; consequently it will operate at all times when the engine is running, and since there is no clutch for disengagement of the hydraulic pump, provision must be made in the auxiliary hydraulics circuits for pressure by-pass to the reservoir when power to the pump is not required. A pair of 1:1 ratio gears, providing sufficient offset between the gearbox output shaft and the centreline of the power take-off to ensure there is sufficient clearance between the hydraulic pump and propeller shaft coupling."

[Guest]

Hmm I've noted a few comments on this forum regarding the bore glazing, so it maybe brand specific, but for sure the issue exists. The alternative oil could well help though...

 

I'd love a big slow revving EU compliant thumper... but haven't found one as yet - I understand that even the Beta Tug JD3 will fall foul of the new emission regs. I do love the sound of the old engines but you can buy quiet new engines so the unpleasant tractor rattle for 6 hours a day shouldn't be an issue - here for example

 

http://www.hatz-diesel.com/produkte/dieselmotoren/l-serie/product/details/name/2l41c/

 

According to the calc the 2cyl version should be fine, with the PRM500 with shaft drive to a 520mm dia reversing prop.

 

It's not a tried and tested combo, but I'm not afraid of that point, I've always been a tad tangental anyways - but I'd be happier if I had a "plan B" booster variation up my sleeve should it prove to be underpowered in the water.

 

It's my nature (and part of my day job) to anticipate potential issues and try to resolve them before they arise. My office is usually a 240m oil tanker...

Edited August 24, 2015 by dpaws

[Joe Bourke]

A PRM 500 is a big gearbox for a narrowboat engine.

A live PTO is a constantly running PTO, the Hydraulic pump bolted to it will be running constantly also.

You can get engines with hydraulic pumps fitted directly to them, BETA for example.

Hydraulic systems are expensive. I know, I have hydraulics on my boat.They are good though.

You can still fit old style, slow revving engines. Are you sure you fully understand the regulations regarding the fitting of slow revving vintage engines etc? There are many boat builders still fitting them, and with RCD compliance.

Regards, Joe

[David Mack]

People specify the engine power based on the highest performance required, which is the crash stop,

Why do you think the 'crash stop' is the critical design case? Most narrow boats manage fine without any special provision for this. I would much rather you maintained a proper awareness of what is going on around you, and slowed as necessary, rather than relying on your ability to correctly engage the boat's necessarily complex 'crash stop' system.

[Dalslandia]

Why do you think the 'crash stop' is the critical design case? Most narrow boats manage fine without any special provision for this. I would much rather you maintained a proper awareness of what is going on around you, and slowed as necessary, rather than relying on your ability to correctly engage the boat's necessarily complex 'crash stop' system.

A old story, one of the now old, but rich guys had a big boat, and hired captain, ones when going into a almost full harbour the Engine quit so could not stop the boat,, and he told the captain to "aim at something cheap"

[Guest]

Thanks David - I've felt the bangs and crashes - and I'd rather not - but thank you all the same for your kind concern. My experience as a commercial pilot has served me well for situational awareness and I've learnt to rely on no-one but myself. Maybe one day you may even be grateful if I can avoid colliding with your bow after the wind has caught it and swung you directly into my path... it happens to the best and the worst of us the same

 

The crash stop is the highest stress loading on the system, hence my focus... I don't want a complex system, hence my line of questions... was that not apparent?

 

 

A PRM 500 is a big gearbox for a narrowboat engine.
A live PTO is a constantly running PTO, the Hydraulic pump bolted to it will be running constantly also.
You can get engines with hydraulic pumps fitted directly to them, BETA for example.
Hydraulic systems are expensive. I know, I have hydraulics on my boat.They are good though.
You can still fit old style, slow revving engines. Are you sure you fully understand the regulations regarding the fitting of slow revving vintage engines etc? There are many boat builders still fitting them, and with RCD compliance.
Regards, Joe

 

Thanks Joe - the 500 is big, but over-spec'd seems the way on the canal, and the live take off point is a very neat solution. I note that Canaline also have a hydraulic take off but it's a more complicated design with water cooling so the engine is not on my short list.

 

I'm not fully up to speed on the incoming RCD requirements; I know that you can still fit a vintage engine to a new build BUT I won't be able to liquidise finances in time...

 

My build slot is not until Q2 2017 by which time the rules will have changed...

Edited August 23, 2015 by dpaws

[David Mack]

Maybe one day you may even be grateful if I can avoid colliding with your bow after the wind has caught it and swung you directly into my path... it happens to the best and the worst of us the same

Have you actually got any canal boating experience? You don't have to have been boating very long to find out that for most boats slamming hard into reverse is one of the best ways of ensuring that your bow will swing sideways, and very likely into an adjacent boat, whereas stopping more slowly, or indeed slowing down in advance of some tricky situation, so you can then continue forwards under power will maintain your ability to steer around whatever happening in front of you.

[Guest]

Have you actually got any canal boating experience? You don't have to have been boating very long to find out that for most boats slamming hard into reverse is one of the best ways of ensuring that your bow will swing sideways, and very likely into an adjacent boat, whereas stopping more slowly, or indeed slowing down in advance of some tricky situation, so you can then continue forwards under power will maintain your ability to steer around whatever happening in front of you.

 

Thanks David - but what do you think a propellor driven aircraft does when you close the throttle? I flew 737s, I'm not an idiot...

 

I do take offence that you assume I'll be racing along without a care in the world... I have no intention of causing any collisions, only avoiding them!

 

For the sake of good order and grace I'll sign off for now - from the bridge of M/T Overseas Yosemite...

 

Thanks all for the constructive input, much appreciated

[RLWP]

https://jonworth.eu/limehouse-accumulator-tower-eccentric-joys-of-london/

 

A hydraulic accumulator with a canal connection

 

https://jonworth.eu/limehouse-accumulator-tower-eccentric-joys-of-london/

 

Richard

[Guest]

Blimey... would need a train of butties just for the accumulators! Hmm - what is the correct canalside name for a "train of butties"?

[RLWP]

A train

 

Because liquids are incompressible for all practical purposes, hydraulic accumulators with any decent capacity are always large

 

Richard

[Guest]

haha a train, fancy that, thanks Richard

Edited August 23, 2015 by dpaws

[Sea Dog]

Hmm - what is the correct canalside name for a "train of butties"?

A railwaymen's picnic?

[Guest]

This is the sort of set-up Ive got in mind http://www.escopower.be/wgrane_pliki/pht_newbulletins-en.pdf

 

but I can only find such flexibility on a big scale, I can't find anything that's intended for the power ranges that we use on the canals.

 

Maybe it's coming, given the steady momentum towards hybrid drive systems, but (now) obviously the reserve power has to come from a bank of batteries via a dual role motor / alternator.

 

PTI is the abbreviation used in the industry for power take-in, this from manufacturers Masson:

 

"Our gearboxes can also receive so-called "power take-in" or "power take-home" drives for emergency and/or come-home operation, as "booster", or for electric propulsion. These applications are entirely automated for smooth transition from diesel to electric propulsion, and vice versa."

 

They mention "boosters" so maybe I'm not so left of field after all.... just pondering ahead of my time

 

This is the closest I can find for the canal market, it's from hybrid-marine, and uses an electric motor / generator and drive belts instead of gears

 

http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resources/Package+retrofit.pdf

Edited August 24, 2015 by dpaws

[MtB]

The crash stop is the highest stress loading on the system, hence my focus... I don't want a complex system, hence my line of questions... was that not apparent?

 

 

 

The exact opposite seems apparent to me.

Simple is always best where narrowboat design is concerned, in my experience.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[Guest]

I may be on the wrong track here but are you suggesting an accumulator to retain 'compressed oil' which could then be released back to power a hydraulic generator, or are you proposing to use the gearbox to drive an air compressor, compressed air then stored in an accumulator / tank / cylinder and then somehow the compressed air used to drive the gearbox ?

 

Alan - I do apologise, you were way way ahead of me! http://google.com/patents/US8413436 Now i understand what you were referring to and for why

Edited August 24, 2015 by dpaws

[Guest]

Simple is always best where narrowboat design is concerned, in my experience.

 

Oh if only the incoming Eu regs would evaporate... did you ever get your beautiful Samofa back in service? I'd gladly abandon everything for a retirement spent listening to her sweet tune...

[bargemast]

 

Thanks David - but what do you think a propellor driven aircraft does when you close the throttle? I flew 737s, I'm not an idiot...

 

I do take offence that you assume I'll be racing along without a care in the world... I have no intention of causing any collisions, only avoiding them!

 

For the sake of good order and grace I'll sign off for now - from the bridge of M/T Overseas Yosemite...

 

Thanks all for the constructive input, much appreciated

 

I don't think that anyone has called you an idiot, and by reading about your experiences, you seem to be able to fly big aircraft and pretty big ships too.

 

But .... have you ever handled a simple canalboat ?

 

There's not much comparable between handling (stopping) a narrowboat and a plane or biggish ship.

 

I myself have only been at the commands of a small plane 45 years ago with the pilot next to me, so I can say that have no experience flying really, and I've never been in command of a big ship either, the biggest ship I've steered as a young boy 50 years ago during my school holidays, was a small coaster that belonged to a cousin of mine.

 

My own experience is limited to barges for inland shipping, when I started bow-thrusters didn't exist, and the barges were very much underpowered, still a huge improvement for independence, no need to be towed anymore, and also before the VHF became a common part of the equipment on board of barges.

 

I'm Dutch and as you may know, Holland is a very flat country with often lots of wind blowing, which made it very difficult if you arrived at a closed bridge just after a bent while driving an empty low-powered barge in a strong side wind, therefore we often had to use our anchors to have something to stop our movement while waiting for the bridge (or lock) to open.

 

I have a ticket as captain for inland shipping without a lenght limit that I have to renew every year, to keep it's validity, and it's not all that likely that I'll ever need it anymore, but one never knows.

 

Back to your project now : wouldn't it be a lot easier to make your narrowboat that may need a lot of extra thrust sometimes (maybe) a twin screw, twin engine boat, by installing 2 small (E.U.) clean engines of which you'll use normally only 1 at a time, 1 engine 1 day, and the other one the next day, (which is what I'm doing with my twin engined boat) and with the second engine to start if you'll need the extra power all of a sudden.

 

A boat like that will be highly manoeuvrable, and will be able to reverse in a straight line without any problem, and turn at the spot too.

 

These small engines will be (could be) almost completely silent, and you could play a tape with loud noise of a Bolinder, or even if you prefer of a Samofa 2-S-108 without the smoke and pollution they produce, and if you want peace and quiet you turn the volume down or off.

 

If you go the hydraulic way, you could install a remote controled hydraulic Anchor-winch if you have to make your emergency stop, but you may find out that you'll never need it, as it's quicker to just move the tiller and get the boat quickly in a different position to avoid a collision, or to avoid a head on collision.

 

You may touch, or even scrape another boat, but the damage will mostly be limited to only paint damage as narrowboats are strongly built, and can survive pretty well to what some people call a "contact sport".

 

Plenty of food for thought for the more than a year and a half before the building of your boat is due.

 

Good luck with the planning of your dreamboat in the meantime.

 

Peter.

[Sea Dog]

 

Life does indeed pass quickly, I'd prefer to spend that time enjoying the scenery rather than deglazing cylinder bores, that's all Each to their own....

I wish you every success with your quest. As an engineer I enjoy such exploration and pushing established boundaries is essential to progress.

 

However, if you're doing it to avoid spending long hours deglazing the bores of a more conventional power plant, you may be somewhat overestimating the scale of the issue!

 

I think you've already spent more time on this idea than you'll ever spend deglazing bores, but don't let that stop you if you're having fun.

[MtB]

 

Oh if only the incoming Eu regs would evaporate... did you ever get your beautiful Samofa back in service? I'd gladly abandon everything for a retirement spent listening to her sweet tune...

 

 

No, she was upstaged by the even more beautiful Skandia hot bulb semi-diesel now in Reginald. Samofa is still in my garden under a sheet awaiting a use for her.

 

But getting back on topic, I really think you should get a bit of experience steering a NB under your belt. It's a non-existent problem if you are paying attention as the steerer. A 'crash stop' is not something one ever needs to do.

 

In addition, my boat stops perfectly well with a 22hp Kelvin. These boats you mention with ludicrously overpowered engines need them because they are shallow drafted so can only take a small diameter blade. Small diameter blade = no brakes.

 

It has already been pointed out that designing your boat to take a 24" blade will give you superb brakes if connected to even a modern engine with a suitably low final drive ratio.

 

Another approach if you'd like a Samofa or something similar is to buy a used boat, strip it out, alter the hull to your requirements then rebuild it into the boat you want. Fit any engine you like and avoid all those pesky new build regs at a stroke.

[John V]

 

Another approach if you'd like a Samofa or something similar is to buy a used boat, strip it out, alter the hull to your requirements then rebuild it into the boat you want. Fit any engine you like and avoid all those pesky new build regs at a stroke.

 

When I was having the major steel work done on Sabina, I arrived back to find a large section "gone". I asked the guy "can I have some of my boat original please" he picked up a rivet handed it to me and said " Put that on the mantelpiece"...........The point of this is , at what stage can you take a rebuild to and still be classed as a restoration and avoid the new regs ?

[MtB]

 

When I was having the major steel work done on Sabina, I arrived back to find a large section "gone". I asked the guy "can I have some of my boat original please" he picked up a rivet handed it to me and said " Put that on the mantelpiece"...........The point of this is , at what stage can you take a rebuild to and still be classed as a restoration and avoid the new regs ?

 

 

A question best not asked in my view, in case we don't like the answer...

 

Anyway, I imagine you are planning at some point to restore that rivet back into a working boat. The OP might even like to buy it from you!

[John V]

 

 

A question best not asked in my view, in case we don't like the answer...

 

Anyway, I imagine you are planning at some point to restore that rivet back into a working boat. The OP might even like to buy it from you!