I am beginning to be concerned

[Alan de Enfield]

Whilst that is true, and possibly a worthy case to fight, it may not be helpful to Dean in his partcular circumstance. In applying for a licence, one signs the application on the basis that one has read, understood and accepted the licence terms and conditions. One of those conditions reads:"General Licence Condition 2.1 (Mooring) explains that the maximum period that boaters can moor in one location away from their home moorings is 14 days. Where notices indicate a shorter period boaters must comply with these local restrictions."

 

Any such challenge around the 14 day ruling would therefore involve challenging licence conditions that one has already read and accepted, rather than interpretation of the act.

 

However, Dean doesn't need to fight that point, as he has been moving every 14 days, and so is compliant in that regard, and so should defend his position on that basis, rather than muddying it with wider issues that don't affect him. Essentially he seems to be a victim of CRT incompetence in logging his movements, and so his simplest course would therefore appear to be to correct them of their mistake and be done with.

 

If Dean wants to fight the validity of the licence terms, then he's entirely free to do so, but it's not something he needs to do in order to address the matter at hand.

You have hit the nail on the head (although you have incorrectly interpreted the meaning).

 

Yes - you sign up to the T&Cs to move every 14 days to a new LOCATION - not a new place - a location can be (say) 100 yards from the previous location. A place has been defined as a much larger area (even in court) and has previuously been defined as a neighbourhood, or a parish.

 

A boat with a home mooring need only move to a new loaction - not - a new place.

[cotswoldsman]

Well even after a nights sleep I have woken up still angry about this. Now some will think I have no right to allow this to anger me as I am not the one who has received the letter and I am not even sure if I am more angry about the letter or those that think it is ok to send the letter.

I care passionately about the canals and boaters rights to use them. Even though I come across as some sort of anarchist I am not. This to me is all about those with a Home Mooring being allowed to use their boat unhindered and within the law and the law is quite clear about boaters with a Home Mooring (unlike those without a Home Mooring) What Dean has done is perfectly legal what is even more worrying is that Dean has enjoyed his time on the Rochdale as have his family and surely that is what boating is all about. He has not used Visitor Moorings he has moved every 14 days. Unlike myself Dean has commitments and has to use his boat to fit in with those commitments while still staying within the law. We now have an organisation saying play by our new rules or stay in your marina we do not want boaters leaving their marinas for extended periods unless they then convert to being a ccers. I still fail to understand what Dean is doing that might effect other boaters cause a problem to CRT. Is it now all about checking emails to see if CRT are happy with us using our boats on the system?

[colinwilks]

You have hit the nail on the head (although you have incorrectly interpreted the meaning).

 

Yes - you sign up to the T&Cs to move every 14 days to a new LOCATION - not a new place - a location can be (say) 100 yards from the previous location. A place has been defined as a much larger area (even in court) and has previuously been defined as a neighbourhood, or a parish.

 

A boat with a home mooring need only move to a new loaction - not - a new place.

Does CaRT acknowledge this difference? If so it would have prevented a lot of confusion if its email had stated, e.g. "Our records show your boat does not have a home mooring....". If their records are correct and show Dean's boat does have a home mooring, then why are they writing to him at all? Or am I missing something?

[bassplayer]

I think it's important we try not to get too despondent about this. The game CRT are playing is rule by fear. Anyone reading these kind of threads could understandably be thinking of selling up or staying on a marina and never coming out.

 

Cruising the system is still a wonderful experience and we shouldn't let CRT win by spoiling it. The reality is that there are hoops CRT have to go through before they get serious.The more of us who get pushed to the limit, the more likely it is that crowd funded action will be taken aginst CRT.

 

Boating associations aren't the only leveller, a group of vety aggrieved boaters could pull a big punch.

[StarUKKiwi]

I agree with John. All boats without a home mooring basically got an enforcement notice back in January and a lot of us (quite rightly), sent protestations into Richard Parry. Since then, CRT have behaved in what one could call a disorganised fashion, targeting those (as far as I can tell) who they think are the ones who won't say or do anything. As Dean has said, when he returned to Littleborough, the same boats were moored with no evidence that they had been written to (ie they hadn't moved). Now, there is a myriad of reasons why people don't move and all those boats could have an arrangement to stay, but when a boater complies and then gets an email, I see the frustration and anger this provokes. I, too, would be angry. I think the demonization of cruising has to stop. The idea you are guilty until you prove your innocence has to stop, otherwise our way of life is doomed

[DeanS]

one of the reasons I don't pick up the phone and speak to the "enforcement officer", is that you never know the type of person you will be dealing with...a reasonable or unreasonable person. The law, and T&Cs, and terms like place, location, neighbourhood, etc are all undocumented...and open to the interpretation of that particular enforcement officer. If an enforcement officer is a bully type personality, someone like myself who is by default quite intraverted (until pushed into a corner when I become the opposite) , then there is a chance real harassment might be the outcome, and something I'd like to avoid. For this reason, I prefer dealing with things over email, where I can remain semi anonymous, and it's only my written word CRT receive and respond to. It's a lot easier for me to be forceful via email, than it is on a phone conversation. Asking people to "phone your enforcement officer" is a horrible thing to have people do, especially when left with a feeling that if you dont do so immediately, you might be guilty by your silence. Does my name have a big black dot against it in their system. Has my name already been forwarded to CRTs legal dept. How would I know? What happens next? Do they send some paperwork if they deem I haven't moved enough by the time I come back from my holiday? Can I go and enjoy my well earned holiday without wondering what's happening in the background. All this...for no reason....maybe I actually did spend 15days somewhere...I wasn't counting days...but I really don't believe so...;-)

[cotswoldsman]

one of the reasons I don't pick up the phone and speak to the "enforcement officer", is that you never know the type of person you will be dealing with...a reasonable or unreasonable person. The law, and T&Cs, and terms like place, location, neighbourhood, etc are all undocumented...and open to the interpretation of that particular enforcement officer. If an enforcement officer is a bully type personality, someone like myself who is by default quite intraverted (until pushed into a corner when I become the opposite) , then there is a chance real harassment might be the outcome, and something I'd like to avoid. For this reason, I prefer dealing with things over email, where I can remain semi anonymous, and it's only my written word CRT receive and respond to. It's a lot easier for me to be forceful via email, than it is on a phone conversation. Asking people to "phone your enforcement officer" is a horrible thing to have people do, especially when left with a feeling that if you dont do so immediately, you might be guilty by your silence. Does my name have a big black dot against it in their system. Has my name already been forwarded to CRTs legal dept. How would I know? What happens next? Do they send some paperwork if they deem I haven't moved enough by the time I come back from my holiday? Can I go and enjoy my well earned holiday without wondering what's happening in the background. All this...for no reason....maybe I actually did spend 15days somewhere...I wasn't counting days...but I really don't believe so...;-)

Dean place does not apply to boaters with a Home Mooring.

[Naughty Cal]

one of the reasons I don't pick up the phone and speak to the "enforcement officer", is that you never know the type of person you will be dealing with...a reasonable or unreasonable person. The law, and T&Cs, and terms like place, location, neighbourhood, etc are all undocumented...and open to the interpretation of that particular enforcement officer. If an enforcement officer is a bully type personality, someone like myself who is by default quite intraverted (until pushed into a corner when I become the opposite) , then there is a chance real harassment might be the outcome, and something I'd like to avoid. For this reason, I prefer dealing with things over email, where I can remain semi anonymous, and it's only my written word CRT receive and respond to. It's a lot easier for me to be forceful via email, than it is on a phone conversation. Asking people to "phone your enforcement officer" is a horrible thing to have people do, especially when left with a feeling that if you dont do so immediately, you might be guilty by your silence. Does my name have a big black dot against it in their system. Has my name already been forwarded to CRTs legal dept. How would I know? What happens next? Do they send some paperwork if they deem I haven't moved enough by the time I come back from my holiday? Can I go and enjoy my well earned holiday without wondering what's happening in the background. All this...for no reason....maybe I actually did spend 15days somewhere...I wasn't counting days...but I really don't believe so...;-)

Dean you really do need to contact you local enforcement officer, be that by phone or email whichever you are happiest with, and establish what they would consider to be a suitable cruising pattern for both yourself and to satisfy them.

 

People can give you their opinions on here, but what is really important if you want to get on with your summer in peace is that you establish what CRT will be happy with.

 

Without wanting to put too fine a point on it this is the second waterways authority this year that you have come under scrutiny from. Perhaps you might feel that you are cruising enough,but clearly they don't and it is them that you have to satisfy.

 

I see no reason why people feel the need to be suggesting legal battles when really all that is needed is some communication with CRT.

[system 4-50]

one of the reasons I don't pick up the phone and speak to the "enforcement officer", is that you never know the type of person you will be dealing with...a reasonable or unreasonable person. The law, and T&Cs, and terms like place, location, neighbourhood, etc are all undocumented...and open to the interpretation of that particular enforcement officer. If an enforcement officer is a bully type personality, someone like myself who is by default quite intraverted (until pushed into a corner when I become the opposite) , then there is a chance real harassment might be the outcome, and something I'd like to avoid. For this reason, I prefer dealing with things over email, where I can remain semi anonymous, and it's only my written word CRT receive and respond to. It's a lot easier for me to be forceful via email, than it is on a phone conversation. Asking people to "phone your enforcement officer" is a horrible thing to have people do, especially when left with a feeling that if you dont do so immediately, you might be guilty by your silence. Does my name have a big black dot against it in their system. Has my name already been forwarded to CRTs legal dept. How would I know? What happens next? Do they send some paperwork if they deem I haven't moved enough by the time I come back from my holiday? Can I go and enjoy my well earned holiday without wondering what's happening in the background. All this...for no reason....maybe I actually did spend 15days somewhere...I wasn't counting days...but I really don't believe so...;-)

Sorry, but in this life you occasionally have to do things that you intensely dislike.

[DeanS]

I've asked CRT for my logs and sent them a reply email. In my mind, that's fine for now ;-)

[Dave Clinton]

 

I have no hunger for court cases, grandstanding etc. All I've done is leave my marina, gone cruising, and on my way back...at a leisurely pace. No more. No less. I don't see it going any further. I am a victim however........I bought a boat to be able to enjoy a certain "freedom from red tape" feeling. It's becoming hard to hold on to that feeling....

You are the one wrapping yourself in the red tape.

 

The letter sent you has no basis in law, no action is required. File it in paper for lighting the fire and carry on with your life.

 

The only sane response.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

actually you're all wrong, because you don't end up in court having to fight about the law, but the fact that you dont have a licence, because CRT didn't give you one.......as far as I understand it....and to prevent that happening, you need to take CRT court before they stop your licence....from what I've read on other threads...not that I aim to be the guinea pig....although some may wish it..lol

 

The situation you're in is, for all practical purposes, precisely the same situation that I was in last year.

You have a (home) mooring, but C&RT are indicating their disapproval of you limiting the use of your boat to a relatively small area, and the likelihood of 'enforcement' action if you continue to do so.

What you've said in the quoted post above is correct. If they do go ahead and take action, then it won't be about not moving far enough,failing to comply with T&C's or anything like that, it will be because they will have either revoked or refused to renew your Licence, leaving you with an unlicensed boat on their waters and they will have served Section 8 and 13 Notices for it's removal.

That said, I really cannot understand why you seem to be letting their intimidatory antics get to you quite so much. C&RT's ridiculous pseudo legal Licence refusal and Declaration/Injunction pantomime failed spectacularly last year, and will do so again, provided it is dealt with in the same manner.

C&RT know this, and I really don't believe that even a serial failure merchant like Parry and his incompetent and bloody minded 'Legal Team' will want to go down that particular road again. In the highly unlikely event that they were to do so, then you have available to you all the means necessary to stop them dead in their tracks without recourse to lawyers. I'm not going to give chapter and verse again in this thread on how to do that, because it's already been posted up in a previous threads.

They have nothing left to use in their attempts to impose CC'ing rules on boats with a (home) mooring except empty threats and bullying tactics. I hope you will respond to them as suggested in post #141, and then just get on with using and enjoying your boat in the manner in which you are entitled to do, not only in the eyes of all fair minded and right thinking people, but of Parliament and the Law too.

There's no possibility of your becoming the 'guinea pig' because C&RT selected me as their target to try out their new rules on in 2013, so you're 2 years too late, but you seem to want to allow C&RT to play the game on their terms rather than recognizing that you, and everyone else they're attempting to intimidate, are the ones holding all the cards. C&RT are bluffing, there's nothing more than that they can do and you should make it very clear to them that you are aware of it.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[Dave Clinton]

I've asked CRT for my logs and sent them a reply email. In my mind, that's fine for now ;-)

That is playing their game. it puts you in the role of someone needing to justify yourself.

 

I am forced to the conclusion you are enjoying 1. the attention from CRT ( 'poor me') and 2. the attention you are getting on this forum ('poor me').

[Tuscan]

Well even after a nights sleep I have woken up still angry about this. Now some will think I have no right to allow this to anger me as I am not the one who has received the letter and I am not even sure if I am more angry about the letter or those that think it is ok to send the letter.

I care passionately about the canals and boaters rights to use them. Even though I come across as some sort of anarchist I am not. This to me is all about those with a Home Mooring being allowed to use their boat unhindered and within the law and the law is quite clear about boaters with a Home Mooring (unlike those without a Home Mooring) What Dean has done is perfectly legal what is even more worrying is that Dean has enjoyed his time on the Rochdale as have his family and surely that is what boating is all about. He has not used Visitor Moorings he has moved every 14 days. Unlike myself Dean has commitments and has to use his boat to fit in with those commitments while still staying within the law. We now have an organisation saying play by our new rules or stay in your marina we do not want boaters leaving their marinas for extended periods unless they then convert to being a ccers. I still fail to understand what Dean is doing that might effect other boaters cause a problem to CRT. Is it now all about checking emails to see if CRT are happy with us using our boats on the system?

 

 

I agree CRT have said on several occasions that they are only interested in targeting boats that have what they believe to have "ghost moorings" this is clearly not the case here and he has also clearly been moving every 14 days which is all that he is required to do. Now for we have place being defined elsewhere as being 1 Kilometer apart as that's suits CRTs GIS system when logging boat data but a different place could presumeably be 20 metres or 20 metres short of 2 Kilometer dependant upon where within CRTs GIS system you are logged. What does 'General Area' mean.

 

My boat is currently on the towpath for 2 weeks about 500M from the marina whilst a friend enjoys a holiday fishing as I can't use it , 2 weeks ago it was a further 500m away whilst he did the same and painted the roof. I'm now waiting for my letter.

[DeanS]

I aim to find out EXACTLY who is at fault...them or me...and if it's them, I'll tell them so, and if it's me, I'll change my cruising. I'm not going to get worked up over it...I am going to deal via email.

[DeanS]

I am forced to the conclusion you are enjoying 1. the attention from CRT ( 'poor me') and 2. the attention you are getting on this forum ('poor me').

 

I do think airing things on the forum is good, so others know exactly what is happening. It has nothing to do with seeking attention. Of course I realise that by saying I've received a letter, many might say..."where there's smoke there is fire", but.....this is not the case. I have a full residential mooring. I have a boat that can only travel a limited set of canals. I have cruised in a manner which has impacted no one, I haven't stayed on any VMs, and I've had to move to a new place to be within reach of the next train station along the route......it's therefore of great interest to myself and others, that I have received one of "those" letters. The funny thing is that I actually saw the data logger at Littleborough quite a while back, and read out my index number for him..and then made sure I was out of there before 14 days was up, to avoid receiving a letter...but I got one anyway..........

[chubby]

Quite right Dean - deal with them by email . If u phone them then you are " seeking " an explanation you shouldn t require . They are relying on you to get concerned , worried etc .

The simple truth is thier system for logging a boats whereabouts is inconsistant . Therefore its not fit for purpose . Yet they are basing thier decisions upon it .

This is why i have suggested that you :

 

Email & post a comprehensive list of dates stating where you were

links to your blog to demostrate you were not on VMs

information about your mooring , incase thier records are incorrect

Quote the relevant laws etc & how they affect you as a boat with a home mooring .

Send this to all the relevant heads of dept and customer services etc

 

Then , leave the subject well alone & wait for thier response . I expect there will be none . All this talk of harassment is clouding the issue . Whether it is ( it IS ) or not should not enter into your communications with CRT . For me , its too emotive , sounds a bit like a whinge .

Keep to the truth , keep to the facts . Demonstrate clearly that thier information is incomplete & consequently unusable . Were talking about penpushers , bean counters , number crunchers . They couldn t care less about the rights & wrongs etc because its probably a " system " that staff have had imposed on them from above that needs to be followed thru according to set pattern .

As i said right at the beginning of the thread , the letter is likely to be a standardised " first response " to the logging info they use . My belief , is your response it to unequivocally show them theyre incorrect . Then leave it well alone . No phone calls etc . Otherwise u are accepting thier " guilty until proven innocent " attitude . Its not good to allow that as next year it ll affect u again & it ll affect others too .

 

My attitudes aren t about fighting CRT . Im not a CRT basher , i have no desire to see anyone end up in a drawn out legal case etc , but when CRT are wrong they need to be told so . That will require those who believe they are being wrongly accused of license infringements to retaliate by making it very clear that CRT have thier logging data incorrect .

 

Im not trying to " push " you Dean into anything , i certainly have no agenda , i don t get involved in polical threads , but this has bothered me deeply because someone with a boat , with a family , with a home mooring is out on the system using it for its purpose , and doing so ligitimately according to the license theyve shelled out thier hard earnt for & yet CRT s flawed system & attitude is causing distress & angst . Its very very wrong & i believe the way forward for YOUR CASE is to just show them

 

cheers

Edited August 12, 2015 by chubby

[bassplayer]

It would be interesting to see how many boaters have had a second notice served on them despite complying with CRT's rules. Bearing in mind that potential harassment only kicks in after 2 attempts.

[lexicon]

Dean

Can I again give my opinion.

I have a crt mooring and have received one of those letters.

Short story I overstayed 3 months on a bit of towpath. (beyond my control)

I spoke to crt and was all resolved easily.

Also in your case even the cc terms and conditions cant hurt you. You have been logged at the marina often enough to satisfy you use it.

They can't give you a 3 or 6 month license as u have a mooring and they cant force you to get a mooring before license renewal as you already have one.

[cotswoldsman]

Quite right Dean - deal with them by email . If u phone them then you are " seeking " an explanation you shouldn t require . They are relying on you to get concerned , worried etc .

The simple truth is thier system for logging a boats whereabouts is inconsistant . Therefore its not fit for purpose . Yet they are basing thier decisions upon it .

This is why i have suggested that you :

 

Email & post a comprehensive list of dates stating where you were

links to your blog to demostrate you were not on VMs

information about your mooring , incase thier records are incorrect

Quote the relevant laws etc & how they affect you as a boat with a home mooring .

Send this to all the relevant heads of dept and customer services etc

 

Then , leave the subject well alone & wait for thier response . I expect there will be none . All this talk of harassment is clouding the issue . Whether it is ( it IS ) or not should not enter into your communications with CRT . For me , its too emotive , sounds a bit like a whinge .

Keep to the truth , keep to the facts . Demonstrate clearly that thier information is incomplete & consequently unusable . Were talking about penpushers , bean counters , number crunchers . They couldn t care less about the rights & wrongs etc because its probably a " system " that staff have had imposed on them from above that needs to be followed thru according to set pattern .

As i said right at the beginning of the thread , the letter is likely to be a standardised " first response " to the logging info they use . My belief , is your response it to unequivocally show them theyre incorrect . Then leave it well alone . No phone calls etc . Otherwise u are accepting thier " guilty until proven innocent " attitude . Its not good to allow that as next year it ll affect u again & it ll affect others too .

 

My attitudes aren t about fighting CRT . Im not a CRT basher , i have desire to see anyone end up in a drawn out legal case etc , but when CRT are wrong they need to be told so . That will require those who believe they are being wrongly accused of license infringements to retaliate by making it very clear that CRT have thier logging data incorrect .

 

Im not trying to " push " you Dean into anything , i certainly have no agenda , i don t get involved in polical threads , but this has bothered me deeply because someone with a boat , with a family , with a home mooring is out on the system using it for its purpose , and doing so ligitimately according to the license theyve shelled out thier hard earnt for & yet CRT s flawed system & attitude is causing distress & angst . Its very very wrong & i believe the way forward for YOUR CASE is to just show them

 

cheers

Ah ok so now we are onto CRT bashers I leave it with you to explain to me why CRT are unable to explain what Dean has done wrong. Surely sending his logging with the letter and highlighting their concerns would not be difficult. Edited August 12, 2015 by cotswoldsman

[chubby]

When CRT send this letter it really ought to include the data upon which thier judgement has been based . They do not though . There attitude is to then get the boater into a protracted " can i have my logging info etc " , " shall i call the enforcement officer " . Guilty until proven innocent . This attitude is wrong on every level . Yet it persists .

 

Just to explain " CRT basher " . What I , alone , mean by this is that there are some folk who will , it sometimes appears , take an Anti CRT aprroach to everything , and that they are the root of all evil . I am not one , nor i believe is anyone who has contributed to this thread . There are some who regularly denounce CRT s attitude and this is entirely as it should be when necessary , but who also praise CRT & its efforts similarly , which is also as it should be .

My point was that im not anti CRT , i don t believe they re useless , but i do belive theyre getting thier priorities and policies in certain areas totally wrong

Edited August 12, 2015 by chubby

[cotswoldsman]

 

They can't give you a 3 or 6 month license as u have a mooring and they cant force you to get a mooring before license renewal as you already have one.

Where did you get that information from?

[Graham Davis]

 

From this PDF on the CRT website. Near the bottom of page 1. It says....– on a rural waterway a village or hamlet may be a neighbourhood and on an urban waterway a suburb or district within a town or city may be a neighbourhood

 

I've highlighted one important word in that quote.

There is a very big difference legally between MAY and IS!

[bassplayer]

I've highlighted one important word in that quote.

There is a very big difference legally between MAY and IS!

The guy next to me IS another neighbourhood...

[Tony Dunkley]

 

I've highlighted one important word in that quote.

There is a very big difference legally between MAY and IS!

 

You should read the 'important words' printed in big letters across the top of the page you've quoted from.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Tony Dunkley