I am beginning to be concerned

[TheBiscuits]

 

That isn't what the letter said.

Quote from the letter, from the OP :~

" Weve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat ***** has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

Staying in the same general area is not forbidden for any boat with a mooring, therefore the dispute is concerning T & C's, specifically C&RT's latest unlawful ones.

But don't we suspect Dean may only have been logged 5 weeks apart near the waterpoint at Littleborough?

[MtB]

 

That isn't what the letter said.

Quote from the letter, from the OP :~

" We’ve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat ***** has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

Staying in the same general area is not forbidden for any boat with a mooring, therefore the dispute is concerning T & C's, specifically C&RT's latest unlawful ones.

 

Notwithstanding the T&C's could be overturned, Dean accepts the T&Cs.

 

His gripe is that he is complying with them (despite them being ultra vires) but CRT are suggesting he isn't, and have invited him to contact them to discuss it.

 

A fine distinction I'm not sure you've grasped.

[Midnight]

 

In this situation answers in themselves will be meaningless in the absence of the desired outcome, and C&RT's answers are wholly predictable, if only for the reason that they announced their intentions to act beyond their lawful powers sometime ago.

 

Not meaningless at all. Their response will give DeanS some certainty as to the issue here, which will presumably help him decide if any further action is required or give him peace of mind. At this moment in time I don't see how this communication from CaRT can be classed as harassment.

[bassplayer]

Writing polite letters to boaters is not 'harassment'.

 

Claiming such is silly hyperbole that just damages your case.

Ask Dean if he feels harassed.

 

I'm beginning to wonder about the apparent CRT bullying sympathisers on this forum. I'm sure you'd be the first to get tough if you were the one being directly affected by such notices.

[MtB]

Ask Dean if he feels harassed.

 

I'm beginning to wonder about the apparent CRT bullying sympathisers on this forum. I'm sure you'd be the first to get tough if you were the one being directly affected by such notices.

 

 

I'm half expecting it, as I'm off out now for six months of bridge hopping. But I won't be making girly claims of 'harassment' should I get such a letter.

 

(God I might regret saying that!)

[Midnight]

Ask Dean if he feels harassed.

 

I'm beginning to wonder about the apparent CRT bullying sympathisers on this forum. I'm sure you'd be the first to get tough if you were the one being directly affected by such notices.

 

I may feel a bit aggrieved too but would simply ring them up and see what their reasoning was before anything else.

[Guest]

That isn't what the letter said.

Quote from the letter, from the OP :~

" We’ve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat ***** has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

Staying in the same general area is not forbidden for any boat with a mooring, therefore the dispute is concerning T & C's, specifically C&RT's latest unlawful ones.

Define general area please.

[Midnight]

 

 

I'm half expecting it, as I'm off out now for six months of bridge hopping. But I won't be making girly claims of 'harassment' should I get such a letter.

 

(God I might regret saying that!)

 

Don't head north to the Rochdale - remember there are wolves! (and CaRT Enforcement Officers)

[bassplayer]

I'm half expecting it, as I'm off out now for six months of bridge hopping. But I won't be making girly claims of 'harassment' should I get such a letter.

 

(God I might regret saying that!)

So being macho is more important?

 

CRT are taking an aggressive approach. It's the only law I can see which could be used to counter CRT with an equally aggressive approach. All other action is merely defensive. It's about time they were put in the back foot for a change.

 

We'll all regret not doing something eventually.

[abraxus]

 

That isn't what the letter said.

Quote from the letter, from the OP :~

" We’ve been looking at our sighting records and they suggest that your boat ***** has been moored in the same general area for more than 14 days."

Staying in the same general area is not forbidden for any boat with a mooring, therefore the dispute is concerning T & C's, specifically C&RT's latest unlawful ones.

 

The following terms seem to apply to those with a home mooring:

 

The Licence allows you to use the Boat in any Waterway including mooring for short periods while cruising. ‘Short period’ means up to 14 days or less where a local restriction applies.

 

The boat navigates without staying in any one place for more than fourteen days (or less where local signs indicate a shorter period).

 

General Licence Condition 2.1 (Mooring) explains that the maximum period that boaters can moor in one location away from their home moorings is 14 days.

 

Visitor moorings are not provided for extended periods of use by boaters needing to stay in the same place for work or other domestic reasons.

 

Cue the debate on the what "cruising", "place" and "location" legally mean.

 

And as for the last point, he's on shaky ground when it comes to saying he's left the boat on a visitor mooring whilst going on hols to France.

 

I do understand what you're saying, and the issue you have with CRT's interpretation of some of these clauses, and respect anyone's right to fight them. I'm just saying that it's not something Dean has to get involved in if it's a fight he doesn't want to pick.

 

[abraxus]

Ask Dean if he feels harassed.

 

I'm beginning to wonder about the apparent CRT bullying sympathisers on this forum. I'm sure you'd be the first to get tough if you were the one being directly affected by such notices.

 

There's a difference between "feeling" harassed and "being" harassed. I'm guessing that Dean probably feels just as (if not more) harassed by some of the replies on here.

 

I really do understand if someone was being threatened in an aggressive manner, but the letter seemed quite polite. Right now, for all we know, he could phone them up, tell them what he's doings, and they could say "Ok cool, enjoy your holiday Dean".

 

There's seem to be no less bullying coming from those who are trying to push Dean into vicariously fighting their enforcement issues for them.

[matty40s]

 

There's a difference between "feeling" harassed and "being" harassed. I'm guessing that Dean probably feels just as (if not more) harassed by some of the replies on here.

 

I really do understand if someone was being threatened in an aggressive manner, but the letter seemed quite polite. Right now, for all we know, he could phone them up, tell them what he's doings, and they could say "Ok cool, enjoy your holiday Dean".

 

There's seem to be no less bullying coming from those who are trying to push Dean into vicariously fighting their enforcement issues for them.

What's the difference, it's nothing about other people wanting to fight, it's about Dean getting a threatening letter (which it IS) and posting.

The fact that others are backing him up, and giving him good advice doesn't excuse CRT for hassling him, which is what they are doing- without legal foundation or good data to back up their assertions.

[bassplayer]

There's a difference between "feeling" harassed and "being" harassed. I'm guessing that Dean probably feels just as (if not more) harassed by some of the replies on here.

 

I really do understand if someone was being threatened in an aggressive manner, but the letter seemed quite polite. Right now, for all we know, he could phone them up, tell them what he's doings, and they could say "Ok cool, enjoy your holiday Dean".

 

There's seem to be no less bullying coming from those who are trying to push Dean into vicariously fighting their enforcement issues for them.

Just offering my opinion, Dean can take it or leave it. That's not bullying at all despite your attempt to suggest otherwise.

 

On the other hand, can Dean ignore the notice and forget about it? I doubt you or I could. Maybe a phone call would be sufficient to get them off his back for the time being.

 

It is true however that if someone want's to take CRT head on they need to be prepared to go all the way. If not, forget it, life is too short. Trust me I know (well when it was called BWB).

[MtB]

 

There's a difference between "feeling" harassed and "being" harassed.

 

 

ISTR there is a circumstance when feeling 'harassed' is proof that 'harassment' is happening. I think it's in the arena of sexual harassment at work. I think people here might be getting confused with this.

[TheBiscuits]

Abraxus, you should consider changing your forum name to Sisyphus!

 

As Tony observed earlier, you can not change the opinions of people who can not see the issues from both sides. Trying to suggest that Dean is not Spartacus will only get you labeled a CRT plant.

 

The only two people who *might* be willing to put their money where their mouth is on this issue are cotswoldman and MiketheBoilerman.

 

(Tony Dunkley already did so, and won but on slightly different grounds as I understand it.)

 

I freely admit that I don't want to be the test case, but I am stunned by jenlyns posts in this thread.

 

Steve, if it's that important to you, get a home mooring for a bit and fight the court case yourself.

[bassplayer]

ISTR there is a circumstance when feeling 'harassed' is proof that 'harassment' is happening. I think it's in the arena of sexual harassment at work. I think people here might be getting confused with this.

Perhaps you should stick to plumbing and I'll stick to playing bass. There must be someone here who is well read on harassment law.

 

In the old days, if someone kept placing annoying notices on your car windscreen I know how it would have been dealt with. Unfortunately it's politically incorrect to defend ourselves directly anymore and risks being arrested. Bullying is no longer about being punched on the nose, it's about tying people in mental knots.

[adam1uk]

The law says that harassment needs at least two instances of whatever it was (letters, phone calls, abuse etc). So one letter cannot be harassment.

[bassplayer]

The law says that harassment needs at least two instances of whatever it was (letters, phone calls, abuse etc). So one letter cannot be harassment.

Can't Dean make a copy?

[Guest]

Perhaps you should stick to plumbing and I'll stick to playing bass. There must be someone here who is well read on harassment law.

In the old days, if someone kept placing annoying notices on your car windscreen I know how it would have been dealt with. Unfortunately it's politically incorrect to defend ourselves directly anymore and risks being arrested. Bullying is no longer about being punched on the nose, it's about tying people in mental knots.

Kept?

 

Dean has had one communication.

 

Hardly harassment yet.

[bassplayer]

Taking on board recent comments I've modified the template. What do you recon?

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

You have placed a note making demands which are not backed up in law. Furthermore, the information you have provided is incorrect, I have the evidence to show this.

 

Any further demands like this will be regarded as harassment and you will be invoiced for any costs incurred for any further correspondence I have with you at a rate of £50 per hour.

 

I will be lodging your note, this letter and any further correspondence where the sun don't shine.

[abraxus]

What's the difference, it's nothing about other people wanting to fight, it's about Dean getting a threatening letter (which it IS) and posting.

The fact that others are backing him up, and giving him good advice doesn't excuse CRT for hassling him, which is what they are doing- without legal foundation or good data to back up their assertions.

 

Point me to the threatening part of the letter.

 

Yes, some have backed him up and given him good advice, fair enough. However, some have suggested that he writes saying things like:

 

"You have placed a threatening note making demands which are not backed up in law."

 

What threats did they make in their letter?

 

or

 

"Send a letter addressed to the individual who sent the 'non compliance' letter to you. Make it clear that you are not breaking any rules and that you consider that he/ she is harassing you, and that harassment is a criminal offence in law. Advise the individual concerned that if you receive further letters whilst keeping within the law that you will make a formal complaint to the police, naming the individual concerned."

 

Neither of which appear to be particularly helpful to Dean, as he has already said he's replied, and that he isn't looking for confrontation or escalation.

 

Once he made it clear that he didn't want to make a big deal of it, and challenge CRT on the wider issues, those spoiling for a fight responded in the following manner:

 

"You seem to be playing some kind of victim card in order to grandstand.The only proper response to such threats is to tell them to do one and that you will see them in court."

 

"Dean just out of interest what is the point of this thread? Why did you not just scuttle back to your mooring apologise to CRT for breaking all the rules and get on with your life."

 

Now, whilst I can see their frustration, and desire to pounce on such an opportunity, it's hardly what I'd call being supportive of Dean, and is more akin to winding him up rather than backing him up.

 

You're right to point out that their data may be wrong and, in their threating letter of harassment, they accept this might be so when they say "If this is not the case, or you have any questions please give your local enforcement officer a ring so you can have a chat to them about your circumstances." Which hardly seems threatening to me.

Edited August 12, 2015 by abraxus

[abraxus]

Just offering my opinion, Dean can take it or leave it. That's not bullying at all despite your attempt to suggest otherwise.

 

On the other hand, can Dean ignore the notice and forget about it? I doubt you or I could. Maybe a phone call would be sufficient to get them off his back for the time being.

 

It is true however that if someone want's to take CRT head on they need to be prepared to go all the way. If not, forget it, life is too short. Trust me I know (well when it was called BWB).

 

I wasn't suggesting that your opinion was bullying, just that some of the other comments came across that way.

 

Nor I am saying that he should ignore the letter. In fact right at the beginning he stated that he replied immediately. I was just pointing out that he has the option of dealing with the matter at hand, which he appears to have done, or being confrontational and fighting a bigger battle, which he's said he doesn't want to do, but which others seem keen for him to pursue.

[abraxus]

Abraxus, you should consider changing your forum name to Sisyphus!

 

As Tony observed earlier, you can not change the opinions of people who can not see the issues from both sides. Trying to suggest that Dean is not Spartacus will only get you labeled a CRT plant.

 

You can label me what you like, but it isn't about changing the opinions of anyone, it's about the quickest resolution for Dean. If we take everyone at face value, then all it's about is an erroneous logging of movements, which can be handled with a quick "chat" or an email. If Dean can resolve the matter on that point alone, then that's his fastest route to a quick win. If not, and it then gets into a debate about range of movement, then he'll have to face that hurdle and decide how to handle it, but there's little for him to gain by being the first to make that the battleground, when he might not have to.

 

CRT may well be wrong in the matter, but until that conversation takes place, and there's an outcome from it, then that's all the issue is for now, regardless of how much bigger some may wish it to be. Changing people's opinions, or fighting those opinions, is a broader issue, and one which Dean has made clear he doesn't want to get involved in.

 

Edited August 12, 2015 by abraxus

[DeanS]

2 quick things.

 

1. I am not leaving my boat on a VM while in France. I don't use VMs. I moor on bits of towpath.

2. Having to "do something".....such as "contact your enforcement officer" or some other action might be forthcoming against me, although in my mind I have done nothing terrible, makes me uncomfortable, and irritated. It might not be "harassment", but then what is it?

 

have a nice day all

[Wanted]

 

You can label me what you like, but it isn't about changing the opinions of anyone, it's about the quickest resolution for Dean. If we take everyone at face value, then all it's about is an erroneous logging of movements, which can be handled with a quick "chat" or an email. If Dean can resolve the matter on that point alone, then that's his fastest route to a quick win. If not, and it then gets into a debate about range of movement, then he'll have to face that hurdle and decide how to handle it, but there's little for him to gain by being the first to make that the battleground, when he might not have to.

 

CRT may well be wrong in the matter, but until that conversation takes place, and there's an outcome from it, then that's all the issue is for now, regardless of how much bigger some may wish it to be. Changing people's opinions, or fighting those opinions, is a broader issue, and one which Dean has made clear he doesn't want to get involved in.

 

Yeah but, if we all spit at once we can drown the bast#%*ds (RIP Bob Crow)