New Boats

[Neil2]

There are lots of boat builders who don't do staged payments on the shell, and as far as I know you can get a boat built up to lined sailaway stage with simple payment on completion.

 

So there's simply no reason to take a risk on the basic fabric of the boat.

 

From that point on you agree with the fitter out to make monthly staged payments on receipt of a detailed invoice, just as you would with any job.

 

That way even if the builder goes bust you own the boat in its current state of completion.

 

In the construction industry it's standard practice for the builder to set up a "bond" usually a percentage of the contract price which is a guaranteed payment to the client in the event on non performance but I've never heard of this being done in boat building, not narrowboats anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

That way even if the builder goes bust you own the boat in its current state of completion.

 

 

That has been the perceived situation - but there has been a few cases where that has not been the case.

 

Example - the Hull builder has not paid the steel supplier - the steel supplier still owns the steel, which has been "stolen" by the boat builder, then sold it you and you have unwittingly become a 'receiver of stolen goods'. The steel supplier can come and re-possess the hull leaving you out of pocket, alternatively the steel supplier will offer to sell it to you at a discounted price - but - then you have paid twice for the same bit of steel.

[The Quickies]

Thanks 'alan_fincher' no offence taken at all. We appreciate the concern that everyone has shown for strangers joining a well established community. It looks like this boat buying game is risky which ever way one goes but the comments have been helpful. We will post our progress, thanks

[Marco_mark]

Thanks 'alan_fincher' no offence taken at all. We appreciate the concern that everyone has shown for strangers joining a well established community. It looks like this boat buying game is risky which ever way one goes but the comments have been helpful. We will post our progress, thanks

Speaking about the builder, did u speak with any of their customers ? Checked opinions/reviews on forums ?

[Neil2]

 

That has been the perceived situation - but there has been a few cases where that has not been the case.

 

Example - the Hull builder has not paid the steel supplier - the steel supplier still owns the steel, which has been "stolen" by the boat builder, then sold it you and you have unwittingly become a 'receiver of stolen goods'. The steel supplier can come and re-possess the hull leaving you out of pocket, alternatively the steel supplier will offer to sell it to you at a discounted price - but - then you have paid twice for the same bit of steel.

"Stolen" means taken without the owners consent. Materials supplied in good faith and not paid for are a different matter.

 

In the case you describe I believe the steel suppliers retention of title would be sufficient for them to claim any moneys due from the proceeds of sale of the boat, but not to repossess the boat.

[The Quickies]

Yes, spoke to customers and got positive feed back.

[Alan de Enfield]

"Stolen" means taken without the owners consent. Materials supplied in good faith and not paid for are a different matter.

 

In the case you describe I believe the steel suppliers retention of title would be sufficient for them to claim any moneys due from the proceeds of sale of the boat, but not to repossess the boat.

 

You may be correct - its a long time since I read the 'case'.

 

The boat-bulder was bankrupt and the income from the sale of the boat was long gone, the boat builders assets had been 'sold' (transferred) to another person there was no money to pay the steel (or any other) supplier.

 

I am fairly sure that the new boat owner ended up having to pay for the 'steel' (allbeit at a much reduced rate) to retain ownership of the boat.

[bargemast]

If you read a story like this one http://www.narrowboat-waiouru.co.uk/2011/07/despicable-ben-harp-narrowboat-builders.html

 

you'll think at least twice about a newbuild boat, and this isn't the only story sadly enough.

 

Of course there are still serious boatbuilders around, but you can't be careful enough, and learn a lesson that has cost a fortune to some poor people that trusted the wrong boatbuilders.

 

Hope that everything will go smooth for the O.P.

 

Peter.

[adam1uk]

Plenty of people have thought the company they were dealing with was solid - plenty of people were wrong - plenty of people have lost tens of thousands of pounds by going the "new bespoke boat" route.

Obviously there are still good, reliable companies building decent boats, with enough cash flow not to fold, and hopefully you have picked a good one, but many people have thought they have done similar in the past, and never got to use their dream boat.

You say plenty of people have come unstuck -- but what percentage of new builds go wrong like this, do you think?

 

I can remember Pav and his story -- but that must be about eight years ago now. The fact that we still remember it suggests to me that it's a relatively unusual case. Waiouru is other one that comes to mind (but I know plenty of people wouldn't have touched that particular builder with a 14ft shaft -- and would have said so if asked). So that's two cases in the past eight years -- in which time a considerable number of builds will have been completed without any issues whatsoever.

 

Of course a buyer needs to do proper research and checks, but I do feel that some of what's been written is scaremongering.

 

A much bigger danger is someone who hasn't got any boating experience making the wrong decisions when it comes to designing their boat. Some could be bad enough to seriously damage the value ofmthenboat once it's complete.

[alan_fincher]

You say plenty of people have come unstuck -- but what percentage of new builds go wrong like this, do you think?

 

I can remember Pav and his story -- but that must be about eight years ago now. The fact that we still remember it suggests to me that it's a relatively unusual case.

 

Well it is certainly not the only case, nor of course the most recent.

 

I only picked that one because it is very well documented on the forum as a blow by blow story right through from someone's original dream to the final outcome, and (as far as I know), them giving up the dream.

 

"Pav" was of course not the only loser when that company failed, but the other thing is the extent to which he tried to do his "due diligence", and the fact that I'm sure (as here) you could until the time of failure have found large numbers of customers to endorse it as a "good" company.

 

There have been other far more recent stories, but not to my knowledge ever laid out on here in as much detail as "Pav's"

 

EDIT:

 

Actually thinking about it, there have been other forumites (old or current) seriously affected either by cowboy or rogue builders, some of whom have gone through multiple bankruptcies, (the builders that is, not the customers!).

 

Try talking to "Chris B" about Anthony M", for example (not!).

Then there was a boat that had to be completely redone elsewhere at huge cost, (possibly "Andy the Hammer's", I'm not sure.)

Or the various experiences people had with Maestermyn Marine (I think it was called).

 

Not that rare, is it?

Edited February 4, 2015 by alan_fincher

[adam1uk]

Well it is certainly not the only case, nor of course the most recent.

 

I only picked that one because it is very well documented on the forum as a blow by blow story right through from someone's original dream to the final outcome, and (as far as I know), them giving up the dream.

 

"Pav" was of course not the only loser when that company failed, but the other thing is the extent to which he tried to do his "due diligence", and the fact that I'm sure (as here) you could until the time of failure have found large numbers of customers to endorse it as a "good" company.

 

There have been other far more recent stories, but not to my knowledge ever laid out on here in as much detail as "Pav's"

 

EDIT:

 

Actually thinking about it, there have been other forumites (old or current) seriously affected either by cowboy or rogue builders, some of whom have gone through multiple bankruptcies, (the builders that is, not the customers!).

 

Try talking to "Chris B" about Anthony M", for example (not!).

Then there was a boat that had to be completely redone elsewhere at huge cost, (possibly "Andy the Hammer's", I'm not sure.)

Or the various experiences people had with Maestermyn Marine (I think it was called).

 

Not that rare, is it?

So as I asked before, what percentage of new builds go wrong, do you think?

[alan_fincher]

So as I asked before, what percentage of new builds go wrong, do you think?

 

I have absolutely no idea. I'm making no point whatsoever beyond the fact that people have in the past done as much financial checking of an established company as they can, and also relied on personal recommendation, and still got thoroughly stung.

 

Clearly the percentage chance of this happening remains low, but if you get unlucky, it isn't much consolation knowing that the vast majority of new boat buyers haven't actually shared your bad luck, is it?

[adam1uk]

I have absolutely no idea. I'm making no point whatsoever beyond the fact that people have in the past done as much financial checking of an established company as they can, and also relied on personal recommendation, and still got thoroughly stung.

 

Clearly the percentage chance of this happening remains low, but if you get unlucky, it isn't much consolation knowing that the vast majority of new boat buyers haven't actually shared your bad luck, is it?

Of course any case of things going wrong is a tragedy for those concerned. But as you now say, the chances are low. Yet to read some of the posts on here, you'd come to the conclusion that all boat builders are on the verge of bankruptcy or go out of their way to con customers. And that's really not a fair way to portray the body building industry.

[Purple Fairie]

It seems that we were either very lucky or at least, in the minority.

We couldn't find a second hand boat to our spec (60' max, 3 bedrooms) so had to go for a new build. Had to wait a year for the build slot but we weren't in a rush so no probs there. Found a small family run business in Chorley, paid in stages (we had to remind him when payments were due!), Liverpool hull.

Boat ready on time and much better fitout than we were expecting for the price.

Lived aboard for almost 10 years now, only moving into a marina with hook up last year, and no problems at all!

And before you ask, the boat builder has now retired, sorry.

[adam1uk]

It seems that we were either very lucky or at least, in the minority.

We couldn't find a second hand boat to our spec (60' max, 3 bedrooms) so had to go for a new build. Had to wait a year for the build slot but we weren't in a rush so no probs there. Found a small family run business in Chorley, paid in stages (we had to remind him when payments were due!), Liverpool hull.

Boat ready on time and much better fitout than we were expecting for the price.

Lived aboard for almost 10 years now, only moving into a marina with hook up last year, and no problems at all!

And before you ask, the boat builder has now retired, sorry.

Which part of that story makes you in a minority?

[luggsy]

I had my boat shell built by XR&D of Newark last year hassle free very pleased with it no in fact we are over the moon with it , it then went to graham ford cherilton narrow boats at Shardlow for the fit out again hassle free , graham did everything that we wanted and more again over the moon with it, I had been looking at second hand boats for nearly 2 years and even to this day ( I still have a look at boats for sale ) I have not seen a boat that fits our requirements hence we had one built from new

[David Mack]

Yet to read some of the posts on here, you'd come to the conclusion that all boat builders are on the verge of bankruptcy or go out of their way to con customers. And that's really not a fair way to portray the body building industry.

And to give some balance there have been (at least) two boatbuilder members of this forum who, faced with business difficulties, have wound their businesses down, completing all boats in build and paying their bills, leaving satisfied suppliers and customers.

 

Just shame there are a few rogues who are so much less honourable.

[andywatson]

It is possible to get a new bespoke boat built without risking your cash.

 

I did it by letting the builder order the steel (and most items subsequently) on my behalf but with the invoice sent to me.

I therefore owned the steel etc. and could prove ownership of the boat at any stage.

 

The also helps builder who does not need to finance the build and can work with lower overheads.

It can also cut the VAT.

[Athy]

It is possible to get a new bespoke boat built without risking your cash.

 

I did it by letting the builder order the steel (and most items subsequently) on my behalf but with the invoice sent to me.

I therefore owned the steel etc. and could prove ownership of the boat at any stage.

 

The also helps builder who does not need to finance the build and can work with lower overheads.

It can also cut the VAT.

That's shrewd thinking.

[MtB]

That's shrewd thinking.

 

 

It was Pippa Watson's idea...

 

 

MtB

[David Mack]

The also helps builder who does not need to finance the build and can work with lower overheads.

It can also cut the VAT.

 

How does it cut the VAT?

[Neil2]

 

How does it cut the VAT?

It means the boat builder has a much lower turnover and may not then be VAT registered ie you don't pay VAT on his labour.

 

This is a very common practice in the building industry nowadays.

[Boat&Bikes]

Are there boatbuilders trading below the VAT threshold?

[Neil2]

Are there boatbuilders trading below the VAT threshold?

I don't know, but if the customer buys all the materials etc direct the builder would have to be charging around £40 an hour plus for his labour to exceed the VAT threshold.

 

The practice is widespread among small scale builders/tradesmen in construction where the customer often prefers to but their own materials anyway. And, as just about anyone can buy building materials at "trade" price these days, the builder can't mark the goods up by much as the customer can easily tell if they are being ripped off.

 

Anyone who has been VAT and non VAT registered will appreciate what a PITA VAT is, so many actually restrict their activities to avoid going over the limit.

[MtB]

Are there boatbuilders trading below the VAT threshold?

 

Depends what you mean by boatbuilders. There must be plenty of craft businesses fitting out shells built by others trading under the VAT limit.

 

ISTR Ally's firm Beacon Boats fell into this category before she would it up, but I'm not sure.

 

MtB