Canal and River Trust changes in Licence Terms and conditions

[jenlyn]

I wonder what would actually happen if thousands of us refused to sign up to a new licence on the basis that the T&C's were not fully approved by the various representative boating bodies and there are suspected illegalities in the wording.

It won't happen. People love to shout, but that's where ot ends.

[Lady Muck]

yes they can, read the new T&C's

They're already doing it, infact they've done so half a dozen times to boats in the pound that I moor in and the one below. Two of them went to court and the boats were taken.

[alan_fincher]

I thought that was the CaRT document, not one produced by NABO? So the interpretation is CaRT's, which rarther defeats the object.

 

You are quite correct of course - my apologies - original post edited.

 

But if you ignore the CRT comments about the changes, and simply look at just the changes themselves, is there any question that they are accurately detailed?

[Lady Muck]

I was expecting this hysterical gross over reaction to appear.

Oh I wish it was a gross hysterical overreaction, I really do, but they have started to 'come for' the moorers, Boaters are bring contacted and called into meetings and are being told to expect significant price rises. I think the policy for London mooring is to price us off the waterways. I think they want it like Amsterdam, it will be for the very rich and for hotel boats - they've even developed a new mooring permit for static hotel boats.

another illegality that no-one will have the will to challenge.

Will or money? They know how difficult it is to challenge.

[bassplayer]

It won't happen. People love to shout, but that's where ot ends.

Well on the basis there are still many boats out there with no licence I can't see it as a major risk. The reasons for them being left alone are still the same!

[Alf Roberts]

Oh I wish it was a gross hysterical overreaction, I really do, but they have started to 'come for' the moorers, Boaters are bring contacted and called into meetings and are being told to expect significant price rises. I think the policy for London mooring is to price us off the waterways. I think they want it like Amsterdam, it will be for the very rich and for hotel boats - they've even developed a new mooring permit for static hotel boats.

 

Will or money? They know how difficult it is to challenge.

it's will. if people got organised there's enough articulate educated people with good connections and access to legal advice to challenge these terms.

[jenlyn]

Will or money? They know how difficult it is to challenge.

As one of the trustee's stated at a meeting some time ago when being questioned on section 8's...

 

"the legal aid has gone, they don't have the money to argue with us"

[Alan de Enfield]

As one of the trustee's stated at a meeting some time ago when being questioned on section 8's...

 

"the legal aid has gone, they don't have the money to argue with us"

 

I think that just about "sums it up"

[Gordias]

 

From the 'summary' notes of the recent C&RT / Associations meeting, C&RT have a new policy for CCer Enforcement (to remain confidential at the moment) and subject to approval by the Trust will have means and resources to apply it.

The implication is that some 3402 (out of 5400) CCers - those who have been identified as having travelled less than 12 miles per year - may be the first to feel the effect.

 

Putting 2+2 together - as the new T&Cs allow the use of third parties, and the fact "we have given C&RT permission to release our names and details to third parties", I imagine the enforcement process will be handled by an outside contractor.

 

Alan

 

I saw that too, and drew the same conclusions. I think there's a little more "between the lines" in the new T's and C's too, but I don't think that kind of discussion is possible here.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Gordias

[madcat]

I'm unhappy and profoundly depressed by the way things are going . I wish I could just sell up and walk away but I cant . I feel badly let down by the boating organisations and I'm not well enough to deal with masses of conflict . I would join and support an organisation if there was one suitable, in truth NBTA is probably the nearest match for me and probably where I will end up .

 

I want the waterways to survive and thrive , I want the charitable model to be a success , I want the wider public to care for and benefit from their local canals.

 

I don't want the poor and vulnerable and different to be swept away . I don't want the difficult to be swept away. I think infrastructure failure is the biggest threat to the system not a few folk who mooch about in boats.

 

Unless struck down by a seasonable respitory illness I will be there at the next work party tackling over grown foliage with a bunch of other volunteers.

Madcat , bow saw warrior .

[jenlyn]

I think that just about "sums it up"

Yes indeed, but not just for section 8's ;-)

[bassplayer]

it's will. if people got organised there's enough articulate educated people with good connections and access to legal advice to challenge these terms.

The question is which existing organisation is prepared to challenge it? I also suspect organisation is going to be far more effective face to face than on a forum! How about organising a protest at CRT head quarters, has that ever been done? I'd turn up! At least it would get us some media attention.

 

I know some of you are probably sitting there thinking this is an over reaction. However are you happy to let CRT make any decision they like without proper consultation with it's customers? Are you happy they could decide you have broken the T&C's and enforce judgement on you without the evidence being heard in court? Are you happy to sign away the right for your personal details to be passed to anyone?

[Gordias]

for once Gordias, i agree with you. these termd and conditions take 1,000s of law-abiding boats into enforcement and there just isn't the money to take them all to court in the near future ( even if there was the will)

Alf

 

FYI - the post you referred to is 100% consistent with every other post I've ever made about CaRT (no exceptions).

 

My objective is to predict CaRT's behavior over the next five years or so. Given the interest in "reactive" threads like this one, I was a little surprised so few people share my interest in CaRT's behavior patterns, but it doesn't really matter - CaRT provides most of the information I need on their web site.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Lady Muck
Use of real name without permission of member

[jenlyn]

I have paid for my mooring I bought a piece of land 2 years ago with mooring rights for at least 2 boats.

 

You bought a mooring and then 6 months later set up an association for continuous cruisers, now that is odd.

 

I have paid for my mooring I bought a piece of land 2 years ago with mooring rights for at least 2 boats.

 

You bought a mooring and then 6 months later set up an association for continuous cruisers, now that is odd.

 

Before you attempt to bring your antics from Facebook onto here, may I just refer you to these

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[Alf Roberts]

 

Alf

 

FYI - the post you referred to is 100% consistent with every other post I've ever made about CaRT (no exceptions).

 

My objective is to predict CaRT's behavior over the next five years or so. Given the interest in "reactive" threads like this one, I was a little surprised so few people share my interest in CaRT's behavior patterns, but it doesn't really matter - CaRT provides most of the information I need on their web site.

you are showing a typical naivity there Gordias if you think you can get into the corporate mind or read their intentions through their website or social presence. Edited February 1, 2015 by Lady Muck
Remove real name

[mango]

yes they can, read the new T&C's

Thanks. If boaters are made aware that their licence will not be renewed if they don't comply with the rules, that should encourage both compliance and reporting of genuine reasons why they have failed to do so. I am glad to see that CRT seems to be taking action to show that they are running the waterways and hopefully there will be less need for checking and enforcement in years to come.

[Jerra]

hopefully there will be less need for checking and enforcement in years to come.

Which hopefully would mean more money for maintenance.

[Phil.]

If it is felt that the new T&CS go beyond what CaRT can legally do based on the relevant acts that govern the waterways the answer is fairly simple although expensive.

I suspect an individual or probably more appropriately an organisation could seek a judicial review of what is being proposed.

As CaRT have stated, only a judge can decide, so perhaps one should before an individual boater gets picked on as a test case.

[Rich]

Is my memory playing tricks or did I in fact read that during a meeting between boaters, possibly organisations and CRT in answer to a question someone at CRT stated that boaters with a home mooring will not need to cruise in accordance with CC regs while they are away from their mooring?

[cotswoldsman]

If it is felt that the new T&CS go beyond what CaRT can legally do based on the relevant acts that govern the waterways the answer is fairly simple although expensive.

I suspect an individual or probably more appropriately an organisation could seek a judicial review of what is being proposed.

As CaRT have stated, only a judge can decide, so perhaps one should before an individual boater gets picked on as a test case.

And how are the Associations supposed to fund that?

Is my memory playing tricks or did I in fact read that during a meeting between boaters, possibly organisations and CRT in answer to a question someone at CRT stated that boaters with a home mooring will not need to cruise in accordance with CC regs while they are away from their mooring?

The opposite CRT have been expressing the view for quite a while that boaters with a home mooring should be subject to the same T&C as boats without a home mooring while away from mooring

[Rich]

If boaters are made aware that their licence will not be renewed if they don't comply with the rules,

 

Is this legal? Hasn't it been established that CRT cannot refuse a licence as long as BSS, insurance and possibly a mooring have been covered? Or was it wishful thinking.

[kris88]

There's going to be more money spent on enforcement, which means taking it away from maintenance.

But maybe this is the idea, get rid of the boats, then we don't need to spend money on maintenance.

I hope all the boaters sat there going"it doesn't affect me" remember when they are paying triple the licence fee, plus £25 a night to moor on visitor moorings ( enforced by private parking companies) and there's not a network like there is at the moment (because it fallen in disrepair.) by that stage it won't affect me , I'll have moved to the continent .

Regards kris

[mango]

Which hopefully would mean more money for maintenance.

That's what I have in mind, but anything that can improve the relationship between CRT and some boaters would be a great step forward.

[kris88]

That's what I have in mind, but anything that can improve the relationship between CRT and some boaters would be a great step forward.

How do you think spending money on enforcement will provide more money for maintenance ?

 

Regards kris

[mango]

There's going to be more money spent on enforcement, which means taking it away from maintenance.

But maybe this is the idea, get rid of the boats, then we don't need to spend money on maintenance.

I hope all the boaters sat there going"it doesn't affect me" remember when they are paying triple the licence fee, plus £25 a night to moor on visitor moorings ( enforced by private parking companies) and there's not a network like there is at the moment (because it fallen in disrepair.) by that stage it won't affect me , I'll have moved to the continent .

Regards kris

As far as I know, most boaters are pretty good at sticking to the rules. I thought that the £25 fee was only if you want to stay on a visitor mooring for longer than the permitted period.