GUCCC liveries

[alan_fincher]

The ice breaker/tug being passed in Laurence's set is probably SICKLE

Theophilus is considerably more likely.

 

Sickle is known to have retained its A frame well after this date. Of course is not impossible that it could have been removed, and later reinstated, but Sickle carried the A frame after the ice blade was removed, so it is hard to see why they would have reinstated one ice breaking feature and removed another.

 

Also the height of the back end rail is wrong compared to other known pictures of Sickle, (Tycho I seem to recall didn't have one, and still doesn't, or am I wrong?).

 

The position of the lateral supports for the ice ram, and the fact the top guards have had to be shortened to accommodate them, establish it can't be Sextans or Tycho, which had those lateral supports set lower.

 

Purely by a process of elimination, (because I have no other pictures of Theophilus to compare to), I'm 95% convinced it is Theophilus.

[Derek R.]

It could be Alan, though as that shot was taken at Linslade, and I think THEOPHILUS was London based, SICKLE being Herts. based seems more possible. But I admit it's largely guesswork.

[alan_fincher]

It could be Alan, though as that shot was taken at Linslade, and I think THEOPHILUS was London based, SICKLE being Herts. based seems more possible. But I admit it's largely guesswork.

 

The Linslade picture can be fairly accurately dated as having to be 1954 to 1956 (from memory!), because of the Middle Northwich butty in Wyvern coours.

 

The conundrum is that the picture below is almost certainly "Sickle" in 1957 or 1958.

 

So for it to be Sickle in the Linslade picture, the missing A frames and rocker bars would need to have been put back in the intervening couple of years. But if they had done that, why on earth would they then have removed the lateral timbers along the decking, that are almost certainly a foothold for the ice-breaking team.

 

[Photo Cyril Boucher / Copyright Andrew Boucher]

Edited January 24, 2015 by alan_fincher

[fittie]

Back to the original point...is it possible that the GUCCC fleet were never in the same livery at any one time? I've been on the CRT web site and there is a picture of Sutton in, I think, the 2tone blue livery.

I also think that as it was known in Jan '36 that there was to be a coronation the RWB livery was a response to the abdication and subsequent appointment of GR VI and his coronation in May '37 on the date that was to have be ER VIII coronation. I think the the RWB livery was a sign of unity in an unsettled time.

Just my thought as boats delivered in 'August 36 still appear to be 2 tone blue.

Was it possible that boats were still in 2 tone blue at the outbreak of war? Or were all boat painted before ww2 in the RWB livery because of corporate identity?

It just does not add up to me to paint boats built in 1936 in 2 tone blue if you were thinking about changing the livery to a more patriotic scheme because of the up and coming coronation I think that the catalyst might have been the events of December '36 which lead to the coronation of the king that was never meant to be.

 

So the question is ... was Lancing ever in the RWB livery?

 

Oh, and does anyone have any pictures of her.

 

fittie

Edited January 24, 2015 by fittie

[Laurence Hogg]

Back to the original point...is it possible that the GUCCC fleet were never in the same livery at any one time? I've been on the CRT web site and there is a picture of Sutton in, I think, the 2tone blue livery.

I also think that as it was known in Jan '36 that there was to be a coronation the RWB livery was a response to the abdication and subsequent appointment of GR VI and his coronation in May '37 on the date that was to have be ER VIII coronation. I think the the RWB livery was a sign of unity in an unsettled time.

Just my thought as boats delivered in 'August 36 still appear to be 2 tone blue.

Was it possible that boats were still in 2 tone blue at the outbreak of war? Or were all boat painted before ww2 in the RWB livery because of corporate identity?

It just does not add up to me to paint boats built in 1936 in 2 tone blue if you were thinking about changing the livery to a more patriotic scheme because of the up and coming coronation I think that the catalyst might have been the events of December '36 which lead to the coronation of the king that was never meant to be.

 

So the question is ... was Lancing ever in the RWB livery?

 

Oh, and does anyone have any pictures of her.

 

fittie

If "Lancing" still has the original cabin or engine room it would be worth carefully rubbing back to see what is underneath, we did this with Neptune and found two GU paint schemes still intact, hence I was able to match to original paint at the time.

[fittie]

The cabin was removed pre nationalisation, picture in Too Many Boats and her engine room was a patchwork of rust, welded plates and patches. I did pick at the paint on the fore end and there did seem to be flakes of dk blue and red but not too sure if it was just wishful thinking and due to the general condition of the paint. I will rub down her doors to see if there are clues there to be found.

 

fittie

[pete harrison]

Back to the original point...is it possible that the GUCCC fleet were never in the same livery at any one time? I've been on the CRT web site and there is a picture of Sutton in, I think, the 2tone blue livery.

I also think that as it was known in Jan '36 that there was to be a coronation the RWB livery was a response to the abdication and subsequent appointment of GR VI and his coronation in May '37 on the date that was to have be ER VIII coronation. I think the the RWB livery was a sign of unity in an unsettled time.

Just my thought as boats delivered in 'August 36 still appear to be 2 tone blue.

Was it possible that boats were still in 2 tone blue at the outbreak of war? Or were all boat painted before ww2 in the RWB livery because of corporate identity?

It just does not add up to me to paint boats built in 1936 in 2 tone blue if you were thinking about changing the livery to a more patriotic scheme because of the up and coming coronation I think that the catalyst might have been the events of December '36 which lead to the coronation of the king that was never meant to be.

 

So the question is ... was Lancing ever in the RWB livery?

 

Oh, and does anyone have any pictures of her.

 

fittie

The Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. changed both their address (to Port of London Building) and their livery (to red, white and blue) in the spring of 1937.

 

Please see post 30 of this thread where I explain how all versions of the Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. liveries could of been in use at the same time - no 'corporate identity' back then, especially as they only had one major competitor - Fellows, Morton & Clayton Ltd. - who had a completely different livery anyway.

[pete harrison]

The cabin was removed pre nationalisation, picture in Too Many Boats

fittie

That is a new one on me. I have always understood that LANCING had its steel back cabin replaced with a wooden one when docked by 'British Waterways' in October 1949.

[Laurence Hogg]

Heres one to throw the cat amongst the pigeons with!! Just when we thought we had all the liveries known ..... a 1941 Pathe film, Large Woolwich still retaining panelling with "as issued" two blues can - but what's the livery?

 

Answers in sealed brown envelopes please

 

[Derek R.]

 

The Linslade picture can be fairly accurately dated as having to be 1954 to 1956 (from memory!), because of the Middle Northwich butty in Wyvern coours.

 

The conundrum is that the picture below is almost certainly "Sickle" in 1957 or 1958.

 

So for it to be Sickle in the Linslade picture, the missing A frames and rocker bars would need to have been put back in the intervening couple of years. But if they had done that, why on earth would they then have removed the lateral timbers along the decking, that are almost certainly a foothold for the ice-breaking team.

 

 

Sure I responded to this earlier - strange things 'appening to posts!

 

But yes - a clear case of 'gotchya!' SICKLE it is not.

[mark99]

If I can work out how to post pictures later on I'll see what photos I can find....

 

 

Put the evidence up here so we can all learn.

If you cannot work out how to post pictures to provide evidence or provide valid sources, perhaps think about go back and editing/deleting all your posts until you can.

Until that time, to be brutal, your posts on this subject are immaterial.

Edited January 24, 2015 by mark99

[fittie]

That is a new one on me. I have always understood that LANCING had its steel back cabin replaced with a wooden one when docked by 'British Waterways' in October 1949.

Opps - post nationalisation then - sorry

Interesting that I have been asking for info about Lancing for ABOUT six months and I am still being told new stuff.

How do you know the date and do you have any other juicy bits of info about her?

Oh, and thanks Mr Harrison for your help.

 

fittie

Edited January 25, 2015 by fittie

[madcat]

Any chance of some photos of Lancing ?

[Laurence Hogg]

The Grand Union Company prior to Nationalisation were introducing a new colour scheme apparently replace the previous colours, it was yellow and blue.

Here is the funnel emblem which was used on the Grand Union Shipping craft which escaped the nationalisation and traded on to around 1957 as the "Regents Line".

 

 

Its fairly easy to see elements which later appeared in the DIWE livery of all over yellow with blue lining here, also the circle with its lines seems to have been adapted for the DIWE logo.

 

As "Lancing" was (according to "too many boats") the first boat to be repainted, the picture might give us a glimpse of what the new GUCCCo Ltd livery would have been, just a few boats early on wore these versions of the yellow livery.

 

Here is another variant:

[fittie]

Any chance of some photos of Lancing ?

There is but I really find it hard to post on this site. If you email me I send some images - do you want pics of her now (ish) or in the past?

BW gave me some of her in the '60s.

fittie

[ChimneyChain]

Is she cabined over or still in working trim??

 

Darren

[fittie]

Thanks Lawrence.

​Where did this idea of Lancing being the first boat painted in the BW blue and yellow come from?

Where is the evidence other then that in Too Many Boats?

Is she cabined over or still in working trim??

Darren

Neither at the mo - the long trip boat cabin has gone but she is not in working trim. Hope this helps.

fittie

[pete harrison]

Opps - post nationalisation then - sorry

Interesting that I have been asking for info about Lancing for ABOUT six months and I am still being told new stuff.

How do you know the date and do you have any other juicy bits of info about her?

Oh, and thanks Mr Harrison for your help.

 

fittie

You started a new post on 30 August 2014 asking the following:

 

Does any one have any info, pictures about this boat.

I read that she had sunk in Regents dock with a girl trapped inside? When and is she (the girl that is) all right and who is she? Does anyone know?

Any old pictures would be good - older the better i.e. pre 1948 but all would be interesting.

I know that she is in Too Many Boats but a better copy of that picture would be nice.

The long and the short is - any info would be welcome

cheers all

The problem from my point of view is that you did not say who you are, and why you had an interest in LANCING. Since then it has become clear that you are the new owner, but in the first instance I was interested to see what would come from your enquiry. I am reluctant to provide information that may be used by a potential purchaser and subsequently prejudice a sale or influence the price, mainly because I know so many owners both past and present and I am not interest in the politics surrounded a sale. I therefore usually provide information post sale, and there are one or two 'historic' boat owners on this Forum that I have prepared a history for in the past, based on my own research - not an Internet search.

There is a wealth of information on Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. narrow boats sited in various archives and private collections, and I hold one of these private collections. I retrieved the docking date for LANCING from original Bulls Bridge documents that reside within my collection, and I have no doubt that I may have a few scraps of paper containing 'juicy bits of info' that you may not know about LANCING.

It is all too easy to get a pre-prepared history of LANCING from me (there are other G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. researchers available ) but is it not a part of the fun of 'historic' boat ownership to find and research this information for yourself ?

Edited January 25, 2015 by pete harrison

[Pluto]

… It is all too easy to get a pre-prepared history of LANCING from me (there are other G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. researchers ) but is it not a part of the fun of 'historic' boat ownership to find and research this information for yourself ?

I am sure that Pete will agree that there remains a large amount of archive material which has not been checked which would add much to the story of canal carrying, particularly in the 20th century. My recent interest has been Canal Transport Ltd, for which at Ellesmere Port are a considerable number of records which appear never to have been accessed by canal historians. I have also found material in the National Archive at Kew, where a search through their on-line catalogue now turns up some remarkable sources. For example, in the pensions material, PIN13/282, I found details of how Richard Williams, the LIverpool coal carriers, paid their crews and how they operated in the 1920s. Get out there and do a bit of research yourselves.

[pete harrison]

I am sure that Pete will agree that there remains a large amount of archive material which has not been checked which would add much to the story of canal carrying, particularly in the 20th century. Get out there and do a bit of research yourselves.

Yes I completely agree, this is the only way in which the story will grow - based upon documented evidence rather than second hand here say

[James Owen]

Two pictures (if they work) of Taygeta when she was up for auction circa 2009.

 

http://imgur.com/qq7lUUd

http://imgur.com/WWwuYH2

 

I struggle to see evidence of an "extremely forward set" exhaust outlet.

[Laurence Hogg]

Two pictures (if they work) of Taygeta when she was up for auction circa 2009.

 

http://imgur.com/qq7lUUd

http://imgur.com/WWwuYH2

 

I struggle to see evidence of an "extremely forward set" exhaust outlet.

 

I totally agree with you in relation to "Taygeta". Now the high res picture of "Tucana" is available we can see the apparent exhaust may not be the exhaust at all but something behind the boat.

"Taygeta", I have known this boat for many years as my late old friend John Jinks had it (as Severn Dolphin) for a fair time, looking back at the many pictures I have of her she somehow escaped the brutal rebuilds her sisters had when in the SW division. Pictures of her loaded on the Worcs B'ham canal show her cabin to be virtually as built, her time on the BCN was a cruel one with her used on dredgings, luckily for her she got replaced by "Barnet" and "Severn Dolphin went north to a more relaxed less brutal gang.

She is also positively identified as John found a GU gauging plate on the gunnel, sadly for the other MN boats at Gloucester they are not so easy to pin down.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Laurence Hogg

[James Owen]

Yes, but earlier posts of yours Laurence confidently state that the middle boats, especially Taygeta, had "extremely forward set" exhaust outlets.

You have reneged on the concept of them being canted back, can we now assume your claims that they were forward up to the bulkhead are equally unreliable?

[Laurence Hogg]

Yes, but earlier posts of yours Laurence confidently state that the middle boats, especially Taygeta, had "extremely forward set" exhaust outlets.

You have reneged on the concept of them being canted back, can we now assume your claims that they were forward up to the bulkhead are equally unreliable?

 

I will not respond to your petty arguments any longer, go and play in the bike shed and read your comics, your "input" on this forum is deplorable and you as a member should be taken off as you contribute nothing.

[alan_fincher]

Yes, but earlier posts of yours Laurence confidently state that the middle boats, especially Taygeta, had "extremely forward set" exhaust outlets.

You have reneged on the concept of them being canted back, can we now assume your claims that they were forward up to the bulkhead are equally unreliable?

 

 

 

I will not respond to your petty arguments any longer, go and play in the bike shed and read your comics, your "input" on this forum is deplorable and you as a member should be taken off as you contribute nothing.

 

I think we have already had more than enough of this kind of hostility in the Virtual Pub.

 

Any chance we can keep it out of the History and Heritage threads?