BSS requirements for 240v fuses/breakers

[Keeping Up]

There are several threads that I could have hijacked for this one but I decided to start a new one.

 

At my last BSS inspection I was told that the BSS now requires that the onboard fuses or breakers for any shoreline input, must be of such a value as to protect that shoreline. Thus if you have a 16 amp shoreline socket the fuse(s) or breaker(s) on board must have a rating (individually or combined) less than or equal to 16A. This rendered my 2-way garage unit non-compliant because it had a 6A breaker and a 16A breaker, even though it adequately protects all the downstream wiring.

 

Surely this must be wrong? I have never heard of any requirement anywhere for a fuse or breaker to protect the supply which is upstream of it. What are people's views, and can anyone give a definitive answer?

[Alf27]

I think the examiner is confused, as far as I can see there is no requirement for the on board units potential load to be less than the capacity of the supply, (as when you connect to different supplies they may be different any way), all supply points should be protected at the potential load of the supplying socket.

 

If you want to peruse yourself see - http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/194782/2013ecp_private%20_boats_ed3_public_final.pdf section 3.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Alf27

[bottle]

So how can I comply with 5Kw hob and a 2 Kw oven?

 

The breaker in the shore post protects the shoreline cable and probably all the boat.

[Murflynn]

I sometimes wonder what training and general competence is required of examiners - this level of confusion is nonsense, if OP has correctly understood what he was told.

 

I would guess the examiner has read the general requirement for 'appropriately rated' and come up with his own interpretation from a position of ignorance.

 

Luckily my local examiner is very knowledgeable and pragmatic and i look forward to his visit every 4 years..

Edited December 31, 2014 by Murflynn

[Keeping Up]

I was certainly surprised because he is an excellent and knowledgeable inspector/surveyor. I know I didn't misunderstand him because I queried it back to him, and having been a Chartered Engineer and MIEE myself for almost 40 years there was no way that I could have misinterpreted what he was saying. I can only assume that he had been given incorrect information in his recent training courses.

[alan_fincher]

So have you been forced to change it to get a pass?

[nicknorman]

I wouLd ask him to cite the exact section of the regulations that you are (allegedly) not compliant with. And then if still in doubt, put a query into the BSS office.

[Keeping Up]

So have you been forced to change it to get a pass?

 

I had a 10A breaker in my spares box so changed it to get a pass, then used my own skill and experience as a qualified electrical engineer to decide that it was safe to change it back immediately after he'd gone.

[nicknorman]

Just had a quick review of the current BSS regs - your guy is talking out of his arse. Use (give your money to) someone else next time.

Edited January 1, 2015 by nicknorman

[alan_fincher]

 

I had a 10A breaker in my spares box so changed it to get a pass, then used my own skill and experience as a qualified electrical engineer to decide that it was safe to change it back immediately after he'd gone.

 

I might have problems doing that with the "new", boat

 

From memory it has 5 circuits with 16 amp breakers, and one each with a 10 amp and a 6 amp, (So the whole lot totals a rather 96 amps).

 

In case that's not enough, the box has space for eleven in total!

 

No, I'm not quite sure what they were expecting to run either, though one of the 16 amps is notionally labelled "dishwasher" .

[BEngo]

There are several threads that I could have hijacked for this one but I decided to start a new one.

 

At my last BSS inspection I was told that the BSS now requires that the onboard fuses or breakers for any shoreline input, must be of such a value as to protect that shoreline. Thus if you have a 16 amp shoreline socket the fuse(s) or breaker(s) on board must have a rating (individually or combined) less than or equal to 16A. This rendered my 2-way garage unit non-compliant because it had a 6A breaker and a 16A breaker, even though it adequately protects all the downstream wiring.

 

Surely this must be wrong? I have never heard of any requirement anywhere for a fuse or breaker to protect the supply which is upstream of it. What are people's views, and can anyone give a definitive answer?

 

 

It is indeed wrong- the principle is that cables are protected at the supply end, not the user end. House ring mains are an example. IET regs permit an unlimited number of sockets ( and the same number of spurs as sockets) on a ring main. ( The size is limited in terms of the area a single ring can serve). Each socket is capable of supplying up to 13 A. the cable is not rated at more than 27A, giving a total safe capacity into the ring of not more than 54A, or the equivalent of no more than 4 socket outlets. Any correctly installed ring with more than 4 sockets is made safe by the 30 A fuse or 32A breaker in the distribution board- cable protection at the supply end.

 

 

Look also at appliance supply cables- these are protected at the supply end in the domestic environment by the fuse in the plug top. This is supposed to be rated to supply the load though I would accept that with only 13A and 3A fuses readily available there is not much scope to be precise.

 

The IET's regulations also embrace the principle of diversity- the expectation that not all the loads will be on at the same time. Most homes have an 80A fuse in the electricity company's cut-out, and many distribution board main switches and RCD's are rated at 80 A. Very few homes have less than 80A worth of fuses in total in the fuse box.

 

Electric cooker supplies can similarly appear to be underrated, because it is rare for all the rings, the grill and the ovens to be on at full load simultaneously.

 

I would report the examiner to Rob at BSS and ask for him to be re-educated.

 

N

[smileypete]

There are several threads that I could have hijacked for this one but I decided to start a new one.

 

At my last BSS inspection I was told that the BSS now requires that the onboard fuses or breakers for any shoreline input, must be of such a value as to protect that shoreline. Thus if you have a 16 amp shoreline socket the fuse(s) or breaker(s) on board must have a rating (individually or combined) less than or equal to 16A. This rendered my 2-way garage unit non-compliant because it had a 6A breaker and a 16A breaker, even though it adequately protects all the downstream wiring.

 

Surely this must be wrong? I have never heard of any requirement anywhere for a fuse or breaker to protect the supply which is upstream of it. What are people's views, and can anyone give a definitive answer?

 

On my boat I've run all the mains circuits through the 16A breaker, leaving the 6A one disconnected.

 

From the sound of it your 16A and 6A are wired in parallel, giving a combined rating of 22A, which may indeed contravene the BSS if it's worded as above. On a typical narrowboat would have thought it best practice to limit the load to 16A to protect the shoreline inlet and cable from overload.

 

OK normally the shoreline breaker should be no more than 16A, but I s'pose it's quite possible end up running off a 32A marina supply via a splitter/adapter, bit naughty but it happens.

 

Could anyone interested paste in the exact wording of the BSS?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 1, 2015 by smileypete

[b0atman]

Again BSS messed up by committee looking for more things to put into inspection.

What is Result of Risk analysis of electrocution leading to death or injury on Inland waterways boats ?

Why can the feed into the boat not be a simple 16amp blue inlet plug feeding a 13amp socket ?

This would be the most basic supply from shore power that is adequate for a lot of boaters .

I have said before the BSS is set up wrongly and will just grow and grow as there is no control over it .

[Keeping Up]

The 16A breaker feeds the domestic electrics, via the selector for shore;line or inverter, and the 6A feeds the battery charger so that there is never a risk of the inverter trying to feed the charger. So in that respect the potential draw from the shore supply is 22A, in the same way that the potential draw from the 8 domestic sockets is 8 x 13A = 104A. But insisting that the two breakers must protect the shoreline that feeds them is surely as illogical as insisting that each of my 13A plugs must be fitted with a 2A fuse?

 

Since my battery charger must have at least a 6A breaker to avoid nuisance-tripping at power-up (and even then it has to be a slow-to-operate type) I would be very unwilling to reduce my domestic capacity to 10A. And if I were to run off a 32A supply via a splitter, surely the failure would be in my using bad practice there not in the way my domestic box is wired up?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

Could anyone interested paste in the exact wording of the BSS?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

The only parts slightly relevant :

 

3.5.1 Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated, complete and in

good condition?

Check the rating, completeness and

condition of all miniature circuitbreakers

(MCBs) and fuses which can be

seen.

Fuses and MCBs must be complete and free of signs of heat

damage or deterioration, and be fitted securely.

Fuses and fuse wire must be rated not greater than any rating

marked on the fuse holder

Fuse holders must contain appropriate fuses or fuse wire and not

nails, silver paper, etc.

MCBs must not be held closed by the use of tape or other devices.

Applicability - examiners are encouraged to confirm during prior dealings with the owner, the location of the

fuse box/distribution board and any in-line fuses, and to encourage their accessibility for examination. On d.c.

systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point – a.c systems are subject to a check for the

presence of a consumer unit or acceptable alternative, see 3.9.2.

Applicability – examiners are not to remove/unscrew fuses or fuse wire holders or remove miniature circuit

breakers. The checking action for fuses and miniature circuit breakers which cannot be seen without their

removal should be confined to the checks for completeness and condition.

Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide

appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

And

3.9.2 Do all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit?

Check that all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit

(also known as fuse/circuit-breaker box or distribution board).

All a.c. circuits must pass through a

consumer unit.

Applicability - examiners are encouraged to confirm during prior dealings with the owner, the location of the

consumer unit.

Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide

appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

Applicability – for the purpose of this check residual current breakers with overcurrent protection (RCBOs)

may be considered an acceptable alternative to a consumer unit.

Applicability – in cases where the only power source is via a shore-power lead, an acceptable alternative to a

consumer unit is a MCB or RCBO incorporated within the lead.

Note the part in "RED"

A previous boat of mine was failed the BSS because it did not have an RCD - I'd paid my money, but no argument that it was "advised" made any difference - I either fitted an RCD or wrote of the £120.

Surveyors - a group of bandits who extract the maximum money for the minimum of work - answerable to no-one and no come-back when they get it wrong.

They should all wear stripey shirts and a mask !!!!!!!

This is my opinion - others are available.

[smileypete]

The 16A breaker feeds the domestic electrics, via the selector for shore;line or inverter, and the 6A feeds the battery charger so that there is never a risk of the inverter trying to feed the charger. So in that respect the potential draw from the shore supply is 22A, in the same way that the potential draw from the 8 domestic sockets is 8 x 13A = 104A. But insisting that the two breakers must protect the shoreline that feeds them is surely as illogical as insisting that each of my 13A plugs must be fitted with a 2A fuse?

 

Since my battery charger must have at least a 6A breaker to avoid nuisance-tripping at power-up (and even then it has to be a slow-to-operate type) I would be very unwilling to reduce my domestic capacity to 10A. And if I were to run off a 32A supply via a splitter, surely the failure would be in my using bad practice there not in the way my domestic box is wired up?

 

You have my sympathy, I take it the charger plugs into a standard 13A socket.

 

Maybe contact the BSS, they should have considered this scenario when bringing in the change, often changing an existing install is less safe than leaving it as it is!

 

If it's a smallish charger they may agree to a compromise, eg something like a fixed flex outlet, or 15A round pin plug and socket with labelling, 3A 'D' curve MCB - who knows.

 

If they will not budge then an alternative would be to swap for a selector switch with an extra contact, or even swap the 6A breaker for a contactor, bit of a pain either way.

 

 

ETA Looking at the bit AdE has posted, it looks like the bit in question is:

 

3.5.1 Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated

 

So the question to BSS is, appropriately rated for what? Does this mean just the downstream circuits, or include the upstream ones (eg shoreline, shoreline inlet) too?

 

 

 

The only parts slightly relevant :

 

3.5.1 Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated, complete and in

good condition?

Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide

appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

Note the part in "RED"

A previous boat of mine was failed the BSS because it did not have an RCD - I'd paid my money, but no argument that it was "advised" made any difference - I either fitted an RCD or wrote of the £120.

Surveyors - a group of bandits who extract the maximum money for the minimum of work - answerable to no-one and no come-back when they get it wrong.

They should all wear stripey shirts and a mask !!!!!!!

This is my opinion - others are available.

 

 

O dear.

 

Sometimes in these situations an email query with BSS head office can help to clarify things, why not shoot them an email as I'm sure others must face this problem?

 

ISTR the inspectors work from a different guide that may not be consistent with the downloaded version, if so a recipe for confusion.

 

Until people get the inspector to identify the exact paragraph that is the failure point, and query any ambiguity with BSS office, nothing is likely to change I'm afraid...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 1, 2015 by smileypete

[Martin Megson]

Well mine has two breakers - 16 amp for the domestic supply and 6 amp for the immersion heater and passed the BSS in Sep 14 without a problem.

[Murflynn]

3.5.1 Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated

 

So the question to BSS is, appropriately rated for what? Does this mean just the downstream circuits, or include the upstream ones (eg shoreline, shoreline inlet) too?

 

we've covered that. There is no confusion in the minds of the the better informed.

 

 

 

[smileypete]

we've covered that. There is no confusion in the minds of the the better informed.

 

We've not had the BSS response though, which counts when the BSS bod may interpret things in a certain way...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 1, 2015 by smileypete

[raymondh]

Has there been any comment or update from BSS on this?

Ray

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Has there been any comment or update from BSS on this?

 

yes, it's here, so firstly thanks to Keeping Up for the subject and for the pm alert. In a busy time, I don’t always get to see all CWDF threads or post subjects, so a nudge is sometimes useful. It’s good to be able to clarify on this specific matter, but I need to remind some and for anyone newish, I am the wordsmith of the BSS, not a technical advisor, albeit having an old engineering background.

 

So having received the pm, I sought the best help from someone who in our opinion could explain and clarify the BSS position, hopefully in a way we can all appreciate. I think Graham has done a great job. So please take this as the BSS office post on this subject.

 

Considering the original points in this thread, we agree that you have correctly identified that the 16 and 6 ampere breakers in your consumer unit are there to provide protection for the (downstream) circuits that they supply.

 

For the benefit of other contributors to the forum thread, this situation is simply one of ‘supply and demand’. If the boat is being supplied from a 16 ampere source ashore, that source will be protected by an RCD (for personal protection) along with a 16 ampere circuit breaker to protect the supplied circuit (in this case the shore line and the boat connected to it). In some cases, the personal protection and circuit protection may be realised in the form of a (16 ampere) rated RCBO which combines the functions of an RCD and a circuit breaker within one enclosure.

 

In circumstances (deliberate or inadvertent), where the cumulative a.c circuit loads on the boat pull more than 16 amperes from the shore line source, a properly configured system will activate the (shore) circuit breaker to provide over-current protection for the (downstream) wiring of the shoreline and whatever is connected to it. The fact that a boat may have a huge consumer unit with multiple breakers fitted is irrelevant – the rating of the shore supply breaker will dictate.

 

From the BSS perspective, ECP check 3.5.1 requires the Examiner to establish:

 

”Are all a.c and d.c fuses and miniature circuit-breakers appropriately rated, complete and in good condition ?”

 

Furthermore, ECP check 3.5.2 requires the Examiner to confirm:

 

“Are all fuse panels, boxes, holders and consumer units complete and in good condition?”

Based on these criteria, the Examiner performs a visual check to establish compliance with the stated requirements. Bear in mind that no dismantling takes place so the Examiner is unable to establish whether the 6 ampere breaker fitted alongside the 16 ampere one in a typical ‘garage consumer unit’ is actually connected to a dedicated circuit or not. The primary purpose of the checks is to establish the condition of the components – nothing more, nothing less. The Examiner simply confirms that the stated elements are correctly rated, complete and free from signs of heat damage - which can be an indicative pre-cursor to an electrical (insulation) fire.

 

And as always, if anyone believes an examiner has overstepped the mark, or underplayed something important – and it’s affecting your safety or your boat’s certification status, please query this with the examiner concerned. Ask him to show you the text of the check and his explanation of the decision he made. If you cannot come to a mutual understanding, please get in touch with the BSS office directly for more help.

 

regards

Rob

[nicknorman]

Thanks Rob. The remaining question is: has the confused BSS examiner received retraining from the BSS folk so that he no longer goes round causing mayhem. What else is he confused about? No names, but it would be nice to know that the BSS office takes remedial action in such cases.

[smileypete]

Thanks Rob, run out of greenies but have a virtual one.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Thanks Rob. The remaining question is: has the confused BSS examiner received retraining from the BSS folk so that he no longer goes round causing mayhem. What else is he confused about? No names, but it would be nice to know that the BSS office takes remedial action in such cases.

 

We are re-running the electrical training sessions this year and all examiners have been invited to renew and refresh on a revised, hopefully improved initiative. the last session ran in 2012/3 and were generally most people found them really useful and well presented.

 

Without knowing who the individual is and I wouldn't want that done in public, we cannot speculate what his decision process was and what his inherent understanding is.

 

However, we have an obligatory field assessment process and examiners who go through it are asked about their decisions and they are invited to raise queries and questions with our assessors. Again most examiners who have been through that quality assurance process have found it valuable. Examiners can again volunteer for field assessment and/or raise any specific concerns.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

We are re-running the electrical training sessions this year and all examiners have been invited to renew and refresh on a revised, hopefully improved initiative. the last session ran in 2012/3 and were generally most people found them really useful and well presented.

 

Without knowing who the individual is and I wouldn't want that done in public, we cannot speculate what his decision process was and what his inherent understanding is.

 

However, we have an obligatory field assessment process and examiners who go through it are asked about their decisions and they are invited to raise queries and questions with our assessors. Again most examiners who have been through that quality assurance process have found it valuable. Examiners can again volunteer for field assessment and/or raise any specific concerns.

 

Is the "invitation" voluntary or "mandatory" attendance ?

 

It would seem to me that a system that can have major reviews / re-writes ( was it 93 amendments in the 2013 issue of the BSS ?) & does not cater for a mandatory re-training or evaluation of understanding and comprehension by its its inspectors is open to inconsistent decisions.

 

How frequently are "field assesments" undertaken ? If they 'fail' the assesement are they then not allowed to continue until they have 'passed the test" ?

 

As a very close analogy - MOT inspectors are under continual assesment with their pass/fail results analysed against the natonal average and 'secret shoppers' visiting them.

 

From the Gov website :

 

The Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) constantly monitors the work of Nominated Testers.

You must consistently meet the required standard of testing or you could have your approval to test taken away.

To guarantee the standard of MOT testing, you must also attend a refresher course every 5 years