Alternator problems .....continued

[chubby]

Thanks Alan

 

That relay holder just bothers me . Its there , cabled tied to the tensioning bracket . Some of wires to & from it seem to have been tampered with .

For example the green wire exiting the relay holder has bullet connectors . The wire changes colour . There are then more bullet connectors . The wire changes again - back to green & this connects to the sense terminal at the back . All the connections are properly crimped & are sound .

 

The other wires are a bit of a jumble , but that may be just my perception of them & infact from the point of view of someone who understands electrical wiring & systems , it may make sense despite appearing untidy . Once i m straightened out this will all be tidied up myself & labelled as much as poss .

 

The rest of wiring then is grouped together & wrapped in insulation tape - neatly -& tucked away between engine & alternator & i would suggest this has never been tampered with .

 

On the wiring diagrams the relay is present . Its holder is there in front of me whenever i look at the alternator but its purpose is a mystery . The engine alternator seems fine . With the alternator sense wire permanently connected to domestic 12v +ive supply it delivers 14.3 V ( or so ) .

Its just this situation where the RPM is affecting the alternator & this seems to be amended when a larger lamp is connected between ignition & lamp terminal at the alternator .

 

With my limited understanding a relay is just a switch . But what it does within my wiring seems unfathomable . I did wonder if via this relay enabled the alternator to receive its " lamp " charge via the larger orange warning lamp with the battery symbol on it , which i think is connected to the engine start battery .

 

i ll venture back to the engine bay a little later this afternoon

 

cheers again

[nicknorman]

Just in the hope of clarifying, there are 2 completely different and seperate reasons to use a relay in such an installation. In each case, the relay is as you say effectively a switch, and powered by the ignition switch so it switches on and "makes" the switch in the relay when you turn the ignition on.

 

1/ to switch on a feed from the domestic batteries via the alternator warning light to the alternator's D+ terminal (whereupon it provides the excitation current)

 

2/ to switch on a feed from the domestic batteries to the sense input on the alternator.

 

Obviously the relay can only do 1/ or 2/ but not both (unless you have 2 relays).

 

In your case, it seems the wiring is set up for 2/ but as you have proven, it is not really necessary to switch the sense connection to the battery+ve

 

The point of 1/ is that it can be a bad idea to feed the warning light from a different battery to that which the alternator is connected to. This is due to possible slightly different voltages at the two batteries. I'm not totally sure why this can be a problem and there is some debate that it is actually a problem. Of course what you have done by connecting the test bulb is to effectively do 1/. So it is not necessarily exactly the same as fitting a bigger bulb into the panel since that bulb is (probably) fed from the engine battery.

[OldGoat]

Cheers again

 

Thanks for that link OldGoat . The belt ive fitted is " new " . At least it came out of a bag & was amongst spares on the boat when i bought it almost 2 years ago . How old is it actually ? Who can say .

What i shall do , is heed your advice re the belt & order one like you use as i like personal recommendations & if youve seen a benefit then i shall fit one too & keep the one got as a spare ( or just order 2 of the better ones )

 

To answer your curiosity , the reason i want the alternator to function at idle is simple for me : Because it should !

I wouldn t. go so far as to say im a control freak or im OCD but i just cannot bear it when things don t just " work " & i don t like bodging stuff & cruising at say 1100 revs " because i have to " feels like a bodge . Unfortunately this mentality runs alongside my inexperience with engines , electrics etc & just about everything else remotely technical on my boat . Its the worst of both worlds .

I cant stand things being " not right " but don t know how to fix it !!!

 

 

 

Aha - I understand completely!

Perhaps I come from a generation that had to make do with what they could get and were grateful with what they eventually got! That's not a criticism of you, merely my explanation of my bemusement.

 

I suggested the toothed belt because others had suggested belt slip and anyway it will last longer. If you need a spare - then get a toothed one.

 

I'm afraid that the canal boat business is still a cottage industry and builders have to use what's available and at a reasonable price. Most non traditional engines are 'adapted' from either plant (diggers generators etc) or small automotive engines. Both of these types are intended to run at 1500 rpm or more to do their work.

In order to keep the costs affordable, automotive alternators are invariably fitted. These are designed to run at high speeds, say 4-6,000 plus. Many won't generate much power below 3,000 rpm.

 

That's where your problem lies - at your cruising speed the alternator and its gearing is at the bottom end of what it can do - as you have seen. It's not broken; just below what the package was designed to do.

 

I'm impressed at your wish to proceed slowly generally and past moored craft as well - very unusual (haha). However to achieve your aims will cost quite a bit, since - apart from (possibly) fitting a smaller alternator pulley, to do the job properly, you'd need to fit a second engine pulley and redesign the second alternator mounting.

 

For want of moving just a little bit faster as you cruise the alternative is costly and may not be good for your engine in the long term.

[smileypete]

Danger of 'TMI' here methinks.

 

Maybe first do the tests in post #106, and only then consider where to go next.

 

Otherwise a danger of trying to go in several directions at once.

 

Still I think we'll get there in the end...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 8, 2015 by smileypete

[chubby]

Oh Blimey

 

This is doing my bonce in !!!!

 

Nick , thanks yet again for your explanation .

 

Are you saying that IF the relays purpose is example 1 then it woud be resposible for delivery the current / power necessary to excite & maintain the excitation current ?

That if i fitted the relay & this is its intended purpose then there is no , or may be , no need to alter the voltmeters warning lamp bulb ?

 

IF the relays purpose is to provide 12v to the sense terminal then this may be unnecessary . But , if it DOES serve this purpose then i would prefer it to having another wire ( as at the moment supplying 12v+ive permanently to sense terminal ) as it " returns " the electrical set up to how it was originally designed when new & as designed by the marinisers .

 

Either way the relay should serve purpose 1 or 2 & reinstalling it is wothwhile .

I think im putting the kettle on !!

 

Thanks again

 

ETA : crossed posts again Pete . Whats " TMI " ? cheers

Edited January 8, 2015 by chubby

[chubby]

Ok

 

Ive returned to engine room . Re installed the original red bulb into its socket .Turned ignition half way :

Buzzer on

Lamp OFF

 

put the test lamp from domestic +ive to " lamp " connection at back of alternator as done yesterday .

lamp does not come on .

 

Im now pretty much out of steam . All ive done is remove a bulb & try to put it back & now the red lamp doesn t illuminate .

I think im going to have to quit as this problem is just getting totally out of hand & im now beginning to feel like im just not going to get it sorted .

 

Im gutted beyond belief as i don t like giving up but i just don t know what to now

 

I tested the " lamp " wiring at its bullet connector and theres 12 v when the keys half turned but no red bulb or test bulb .

 

So disappointed

[smileypete]

TMI = 'too much information'

 

Do the test *exactly* as described in post #81:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=72771&p=1478410

 

Then repeat it, using the engine batt instead of domestic batt.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[bizzard]

Is it possible Chubby that your engine once only had one alternator and that relay was a split charge relay, no longer required because it now has two alternators.

Anyway, you now have trouble simply by removing the charge light bulb and putting it back. Is the bulb blown? Have you another bulb to try. Are the contacts in the holder, clean and intact. Have you strained the wires on the bulb holder and pulled one out.

[chubby]

Cheers guys

 

My engine was 2 alternators from the go in 2001 Bizzard .

The little red bulb is looking like the straw that broke the camels back !

Looking at it as closely as i can it seems ok . I checked all the connections yesterday & they were all ok .

Ive taken the bulb out & in putting back somethings gone wrong .

I ve gone for a short walk as i need to get away from the boat for a bit as its done my head in !!

 

back soon tho

 

cheers again

Edited January 8, 2015 by chubby

[RLWP]

I ve gone for a short walk as i need to get away from the boat for a bit as its done my head in !!

 

back soon tho

 

cheers again

 

A surprisingly effective engineering solution - one I use myself

 

Richard

[bizzard]

Cheers guys

 

My engine was 2 alternators from the go in 2001 Bizzard .

The little red bulb is looking like the straw that broke the camels back !

Looking at it as closely as i can it seems ok . I checked all the connections yesterday & they were all ok .

Ive taken the bulb out & in putting back somethings gone wrong .

I ve gone for a short walk as i need to get away from the boat for a bit as its done my head in !!

 

back soon tho

 

cheers again

Test the bulb with a couple of wires from one of your batteries, or with the Ohms-resistance setting on a multimeter.

[chubby]

Ok

 

back onboard . Kettles on !

 

So ,

I tested the bulb . 2 wires , 2 crocodile clips . I m beginning to feel like a mad professor !

Connected these to the battery . I put the wires either side of the worlds tiniest lightbulb & .... nothing . I repeated with a new bulb ( thankyou Halfords ) & it came on . Then i repeated both sets of tests on the bulbs . Same results . Then of course the worlds tiniest bulb fell into my engine bay where one day somebody may find . I gave up !!

Forunately it was the red bulb , seemingly blown that disappeared into abyss . The new bulb went into the holder . I sorted the connections out at the alrernator , turned the key .

It came on !

I had already tried this bulb in the holder & had no joy . Its why i thought there was a problem bigger than just a blown bulb .

I then reconnected the test bulb & this time it worked .

 

I repeated yesterdays test .

Connected to domestic 12v+ive to " lamp " connection at alternator .

turned key ,

Bingo !

engine on , both alternators charging 14.3 v . No need to rev .

Turned engine off . Repeated . Same result .

 

Then carried out Petes 2nd recommended test - Same thing but with alternator " lamp " terminal connected to Engine 12V+ive .

 

Bingo ! Engine on , both alternators on . 14.3 V . No need to rev .

 

All this seems positive ! Unfortunately i ve no idea what this means !!!

I m literally now just doing as i m told as best i can

 

Ah .... kettles boiled . On the stove ..... ive run out of gas !!!

 

I need to move my boat

 

Cheers

[bizzard]

Ok

 

back onboard . Kettles on !

 

So ,

I tested the bulb . 2 wires , 2 crocodile clips . I m beginning to feel like a mad professor !

Connected these to the battery . I put the wires either side of the worlds tiniest lightbulb & .... nothing . I repeated with a new bulb ( thankyou Halfords ) & it came on . Then i repeated both sets of tests on the bulbs . Same results . Then of course the worlds tiniest bulb fell into my engine bay where one day somebody may find . I gave up !!

Forunately it was the red bulb , seemingly blown that disappeared into abyss . The new bulb went into the holder . I sorted the connections out at the alrernator , turned the key .

It came on !

I had already tried this bulb in the holder & had no joy . Its why i thought there was a problem bigger than just a blown bulb .

I then reconnected the test bulb & this time it worked .

 

I repeated yesterdays test .

Connected to domestic 12v+ive to " lamp " connection at alternator .

turned key ,

Bingo !

engine on , both alternators charging 14.3 v . No need to rev .

Turned engine off . Repeated . Same result .

 

Then carried out Petes 2nd recommended test - Same thing but with alternator " lamp " terminal connected to Engine 12V+ive .

 

Bingo ! Engine on , both alternators on . 14.3 V . No need to rev .

 

All this seems positive ! Unfortunately i ve no idea what this means !!!

I m literally now just doing as i m told as best i can

 

Ah .... kettles boiled . On the stove ..... ive run out of gas !!!

 

I need to move my boat

 

Cheers

Is this with the slightly higher wattage bulb that you bought? I'm on Rum and cloves.

[bizzard]

Those little warning light bulb holders are usually a bit rubbishy. I'd fit a nice brass twin pole holder with a twin pole 6w bulb. It would probably mean enlarging the hole on your board but its worth it. The light it will give out as you switch on when its dark is also handy. It doesn't matter if its not red, you'll know the bulb.

[Loafer]

When you guys sorted out my alternator excitation problem, I couldn't get one of my bigger bulbs to work in the socket. I tried fiddling around with it, twisting and pushing, then it suddenly lit up.

 

Seems solid now.

[chubby]

Cheers Bizzard ,

 

It is the 2.3 w bulb . I believe the original was a 1.2 . Its not red though but in the grand scheme of thats a complete & utter non issue !

 

This bulb came from Halfords because when i visited the auto electricians & explained what i needed & why - a bigger bulb etc he said that i couldn t physically have a 4 or 6 W bulb the same size & fitting as the original 1.2 W .

 

For less than £1.50 he provided me with a 4w bulb , physically much bigger - about 6mm wide , spade connectors & rectangular plastic sleeves to protect or cover the connections .

 

Using this bulb will mean it is not inside the voltmeter as originally installed & would require me to extend the bulb wiring by maybe 6 inches , using spade connectors onto those already fitted & then drill a new hole adjacent to the exising instrument panel , fit the bulb & then go googling for some sort of cover to fit over the bulb itself to weatherproof it .

 

This to me is not ideal , but , if this route is recommended & it makes the whole installation more robust , more reliable then i ll do it . The stuff the auto electrician sold me looks reliable .

 

So , shall i re connect the " lamp " connection at alternator to the ignition wiring loom & try the engine to see if the increase in bulb wattage from 1.2 to 2.3 is sufficient ?

 

cheers again

[bizzard]

Cheers Bizzard ,

 

It is the 2.3 w bulb . I believe the original was a 1.2 . Its not red though but in the grand scheme of thats a complete & utter non issue !

 

This bulb came from Halfords because when i visited the auto electricians & explained what i needed & why - a bigger bulb etc he said that i couldn t physically have a 4 or 6 W bulb the same size & fitting as the original 1.2 W .

 

For less than £1.50 he provided me with a 4w bulb , physically much bigger - about 6mm wide , spade connectors & rectangular plastic sleeves to protect or cover the connections .

 

Using this bulb will mean it is not inside the voltmeter as originally installed & would require me to extend the bulb wiring by maybe 6 inches , using spade connectors onto those already fitted & then drill a new hole adjacent to the exising instrument panel , fit the bulb & then go googling for some sort of cover to fit over the bulb itself to weatherproof it .

 

This to me is not ideal , but , if this route is recommended & it makes the whole installation more robust , more reliable then i ll do it . The stuff the auto electrician sold me looks reliable .

 

So , shall i re connect the " lamp " connection at alternator to the ignition wiring loom & try the engine to see if the increase in bulb wattage from 1.2 to 2.3 is sufficient ?

 

cheers again

Why not if all you've done is change the bulb

[bizzard]

Why not if all you've done is change the bulb

I see you have a cruiser stern with all this outside, on a pedestal or on the rear bulkhead? Whichever can you not make a little weather cowel-shield over to protect them.

[smileypete]

So , shall i re connect the " lamp " connection at alternator to the ignition wiring loom & try the engine to see if the increase in bulb wattage from 1.2 to 2.3 is sufficient ?

 

Sounds good.

 

Can you read the current or wattage on the test lamp bulb? If not, a multimeter set to 'amps' and using the amps sockets will measure the current draw of the test lamp.

 

IF the new bulb isn't powerful enough, a workaround could be to connect another bulb in parallel, and cable tie it somewhere behind the panel.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 8, 2015 by smileypete

[chubby]

Cheers Bizzard .

 

Trad stern , so the instrument panels are " indoors " mostly . Reconfiguring stuff to enable a bigger bulb isn t a big deal i don t think . I might even go so far as to say i d feel confident doing it ! But i need to it neat & tidy otherwise if/ when i come to sell the boat if it looks a mess then its not good . So i'd need to fit a clear plasic cover over the bulb to keep rain off it etc .

Not a problem

 

I tried the engine with the slightly bigger wattage bulb in the voltmeters existing bulb holder . It needed revs but only a little & only once . Its now been running at idle for over 10 minutes & appears ok .

 

I ll be back

cheers

 

ETA : sorry Pete - crossed posts

Edited January 8, 2015 by chubby

[chubby]

Ok

 

I ve repeated the test . Again it needed a few extra revs to excite , but again nothing like 1200 rpm , just a slight push of the throttle & it all started up . Return throttle to idle ( though its seems to idle slightly faster ... around 950 or so ) & the alternator stayed on . Ran for 8-10 minutes . All fine .

 

My test bulb is " MR 11 " cabin light . 10 W . cobbled together with bits of wire & crocodile clips but functional . If i ever get myself straight i ll invest in some proper testing equipment & learn to use it . Not clever equipment just stuff thats put together properly .

 

So, it seems ok ...... The initial blip of the throttle isn t a problem . I can live with that as its such a tiny amount & It enables me to keep my instrument panel unmodified .

 

Next thing i need to do is check Old Goats link again . Establish how long a belt i need by cutting the old one & measuring it & buying at least one , probably two & replace my current belt which although fresh out the bag i dont know how old it is . Probably fine , but im not taking chances , but for now it ll do .

 

I will run it again in the morning & see what happens ,

 

cheers again

[RLWP]

Are there any numbers on the existing belt?

 

Richard

[smileypete]

Ok

 

I ve repeated the test . Again it needed a few extra revs to excite , but again nothing like 1200 rpm , just a slight push of the throttle & it all started up . Return throttle to idle ( though its seems to idle slightly faster ... around 950 or so ) & the alternator stayed on . Ran for 8-10 minutes . All fine .

 

 

Early days but sounds good!

 

I admire your tenacity, make sure you have a well deserved pint or two somewhere.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[bizzard]

Most ordinary V belts are toothed these days, maybe yours is Chubby.

[MtB]

 

A surprisingly effective engineering solution - one I use myself

 

Richard

 

Another tool from the same box is to find someone willing to listen to your explaining out loud the problem or whatever it is that you don't understand.

 

When a real human bean is listening, it's remarkable how often you have an 'aha!' moment, even if they are not understanding or particularly interested.

 

 

MtB

Edited January 8, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman