Are Stonebridge Services the Worst in the Country?

[pearley]

Last time we used them, 5 years ago, they were fairly clean and tidy with a cafe and canoe centre. Even though it had the slowest tap ever.

 

Now, I can only describe them as disgusting. The cafe is shuttered up. The canoe centre has gone. Boats are moored at both ends of the s/stn moorings leaving space for just one boat, the elsan is filthy with branches growing through the fencing, dinghies (plural) on the bank being painted and rubbish over a lot of the site. And the tap is still the slowest.

 

I don't know if anyone still lives in the lockhouse, it looks occupied, but you would think they would be complaining all the time to CRT. Or perhaps the Trust don't care.

[Lady Muck]

Yes it's like end times up here Grim, really grim.

The lockhouses were bought by investors two years ago - they have been unoccupied ever since.

We on the moorings are sick of the situation here - my neighbours complain constantly so they give us a discount on our moorings but never do anything about the problems.

The canoe centre was pulled down, CRT said it was 1/ unsafe and 2/ had asbestos in it, both of which turned out to be lies. The money meant to build a new one was diverted to the Olympics, so now we have a bare bit of concrete instead. CRT said they would landscape it and they have done nothing.

The elsan. Sigh. where do I begin? The water pressure is really bad here - if someone is having a shower/filling up with water then you cannot flush or rinse the elsan. But CRT stopped maintaining it properly about three years ago, it is never pressure washed like it used to be. It is often used to dispose of engine oil and is therefore often blocked. When the lock cottages were occupied, tenants never stayed long - the cess pit would overflow filling their garden with raw sewage. If a boat was filling up, they could get no water out of their taps. As we are on an island, here, no one will stump up the money for an adequate water main and there is no mains sewage. The toilets were designed with a short flush, so they constantly get blocked. The laundry room is padlocked because boaters were running cables out of there to charge their boats up and there was a rough sleeper who would pull all the cables out of the fuse box so the lights would go off so he could sleep.

And the flytipping is out of control.

CRT have not emptied the towpath bins between here and Tottenham lock for at least three months I note.

We formed a community group to try to run a cafe, but it failed. I even got my food hygiene cert!

But If I knew now what I knew then about Tottenham community groups...maybe things would've been different. But we weren't helped by constant vandalism, when someone nicked all the copper pipes and boiler leaving the centre with no toilets or showers for three months, then the week it repoened the toilets were smashed with a sledghammer. Everything metal here has been weighed in for scrap - the drain covers, manhole covers, hydraulics covers on the lock, even public art - there were half a dozen public art works all in metal. All stolen.

And the fact that CRT would not let cruisers (who were our main volunteers) stay in the area for more than two weeks so we could never get the cover for the cafe. Volunteering is great, but we also need to work to earn, so we struggled. Everything that anyone ever tries to set up, up here is destroyed or stolen - canoe club had all the equipment stolen, accessible bike charity had all his bikes stolen, it's grim.

I've kind of given up, mostly because I've had a lot on my plate this year and CRT clearly aren't interested. I don't mind the cruisers directly outside our gates. Before they were there outside our gates was a bit of a lovers lane, you would have to stop couples from having sex and make them move their cars just so you could get in your own gates! I feel much safer with them there. So, this, for me is preferable.

Still love my mooring though. I have elec and water, a huge garden and I can park my car next to my boat. I love my neighours and this area is convenient for most places. It's why people put up with it, it's why approx half of the original moorers here from when the site was created are still here despite the problems.

CRT still reckon it costs them £30k a year to maintain the services. They are desperate to offload them, but the council and LVRP have an interest in the centre and for this reason it cannot be closed as CRT would've loved to have done. Tendering it as a cafe failed too as the building isn't suitable and needs a lot of work, you would not pass the certifications the way it is set up at the moment - we were only allowed to sell things like crisps.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Lady Muck

[Alf Roberts]

I find it interesting, and more than a little appalling, that CRT have the budget for 'enforcement' - - an ineffectual joke -- and plenty for futile court cases and loads of what I can only describe as backhanders for their pet Shoosmiths, a small fraction of which could make these vital services for purpose. They have the budget for this and are perfectly happy to encourage and foment unrest about small numbers of boaters, yet they won't address real, obvious and resolvable problems like this.

 

I feel there needs to be some real publicity for their negligence. The spotlight on this disgusting abrogation of their duties may make some shift.

 

navigation authority? compare this behaviour and track record with any other navigation authority in Western Europe and it is apparent they are an expensive joke.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Alf Roberts

[Lady Muck]

Well I know that both the local authority and LVRP aren't happy about the situation.

Things are going to change, though. Work has begun to turn the reservoirs into a wetlands centre and one of the access points will be Stonebridge Lock.

There is development planned for both Hle Wharf and the industrial zone North of the marsh - yet more luxury flats.

The downside is that this will most likely force us all off as none of us are rich - the south moorings have already been warned to expect price rises.

[Phoenix_V]

There used to be a nice boatyard and pub (well the pub was OK just) at Stonebridge, BW staff in the houses then BW evicted the tenants and took it all back into their management

need I say more!

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I find it interesting, and more than a little appalling, that CRT have the budget for 'enforcement' - - an ineffectual joke -- and plenty for futile court cases and loads of what I can only describe as backhanders for their pet Shoosmiths, a small fraction of which could make these vital services for purpose. They have the budget for this and are perfectly happy to encourage and foment unrest about small numbers of boaters, yet they won't address real, obvious and resolvable problems like this.

 

I feel there needs to be some real publicity for their negligence. The spotlight on this disgusting abrogation of their duties may make some shift.

 

navigation authority? compare this behaviour and track record with any other navigation authority in Western Europe and it is apparent they are an expensive joke.

Whilst I find what Lady M is reporting very sad, why do you once again lay the blame on CRT? Do they flush engine oil down the Elsan? Do they encourage boaters to abstract electricity? Do they carry out fly tipping? Do they steal the fixtures and fittings or vandalise them?

 

It would clearly be ideal to restore the site to its former 'glory' but on the other hand until the anti-social problems there have been resolved CRT may just as well flush the cash down the Elsan (on the occasions that it isn't blocked!). If idiots sledgehammered the toilets any suggestion of 'improve the security' is just a joke.Why fit the place out with new fixtures and fitting for someone to rip them all out for scrap? It is just giving free cash to criminals. It isn't an easy problem to solve but if it is to be solved it will have to be jointly with the local authority but since they are all strapped for cash, this is unfortunately the way the the UK in general will be going. Since the coalition have decided that we don't really need Police there is no point in asking for any action from them either, there ain't enough of them to deal with the serious stuff.

[Alf Roberts]

ummm..... who else is going to manage the waterways if not CRT.

 

perhaps focussing some attention on it might help. not evicting the lock cottage tenants might have done.

 

perhaps you think any facility that has issues should be similarly abandoned by management?

[Jerra]

perhaps focussing some attention on it might help. not evicting the lock cottage tenants might have done.

Perhaps they wouldn't have been there anyway! By the sound of the anti social behaviour they would probably have left anyway.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

ummm..... who else is going to manage the waterways if not CRT.

 

perhaps focussing some attention on it might help. not evicting the lock cottage tenants might have done.

 

perhaps you think any facility that has issues should be similarly abandoned by management?

So they fit the services out nicely and they are stripped for scrap, so they do it again ad infinitum do they? Perhaps they get the volunteers to guard the place do they? There is obviously a behavioural problem there to be addressed and by the sound of it not entirely from local yobs (unusual mode of vandalism to go to the trouble of bringing your own waste oil out to the canal to pour down the Elsan, surely the local vandals have the wit to just pour it straight down the drain like any other idiot?). Agreed that not evicting the lock cottage tenants would have helped but it's too late for that now.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Wanderer Vagabond

[Cosmic]

Whilst I find what Lady M is reporting very sad, why do you once again lay the blame on CRT? Do they flush engine oil down the Elsan? Do they encourage boaters to abstract electricity? Do they carry out fly tipping? Do they steal the fixtures and fittings or vandalise them?

 

It would clearly be ideal to restore the site to its former 'glory' but on the other hand until the anti-social problems there have been resolved CRT may just as well flush the cash down the Elsan (on the occasions that it isn't blocked!). If idiots sledgehammered the toilets any suggestion of 'improve the security' is just a joke.Why fit the place out with new fixtures and fitting for someone to rip them all out for scrap? It is just giving free cash to criminals. It isn't an easy problem to solve but if it is to be solved it will have to be jointly with the local authority but since they are all strapped for cash, this is unfortunately the way the the UK in general will be going. Since the coalition have decided that we don't really need Police there is no point in asking for any action from them either, there ain't enough of them to deal with the serious stuff.

No, CaRT didn't put oil down the Elsan, etc.

 

But they ran the whole site so badly that I was able to save more than 50% on the running costs by making two phone calls. Their blatant incompetence led to the site becoming unmanageable. For example, it took them five months to replace the stolen plumbing (their estimate was three days). Then it took them well over a year to get rid of the squatters from the old cafe. That alone resulted in may on the customers of the new cafe we had started leaving on account of the oppressive and intimidating atmosphere.

 

Yes, there were unbelievable problems with some individuals involved in the community groups, but the plans being developed by the boaters would have addressed all of the specific problems mentioned:

 

Oil: We were making arrangements for oil to be collected and taken to the local tip (about half a mile away)

Electricity: We had already made arrangements for an electricity supply to be made available and used this successfully

Flytipping/vandalism: Stonebridge was the first site at which a formal caretaker mooring was agreed with CaRT. We agreed arrangements for the security gate to the site to be kept closed at night. And the simple fact that there was always a group of people around the cafe meant that flytipping and vandalism didn't happen during the day. And every morning, we used to clear up the litter outside. This gave the impression of a place that people took a pride in, and made it more welcoming. Little by little, we were improving the whole area.

 

What we were doing at Stonebridge, in a comparatively short time, made a massive difference to Stonebridge. Yes, we could have reduced CaRT's costs, but no, we could never have eliminated them altogether. The reason the place is in the state it is is a direct result of CaRT's insistence that they must make a profit from it.

 

I don't know whether the facilities at Stonebridge are the worst in the country. But what I do know is that they are the best example of what happens when an organisation is so completely focused on making a financial profit and pays no attention to the social benefits that an asset can bring.

[MtB]

So, for the record Alf, can you confirm you wish CRT to cease all expenditure on enforcement please? This is how your posts come across to me.

 

Or if you support a degree of enforcement, could you tell the board what level of enforcement you would support?

 

Thanks,

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

...........perhaps focussing some attention on it might help. not evicting the lock cottage tenants might have done.............

 

 

 

Lady Muck wrote :

..............When the lock cottages were occupied, tenants never stayed long - the cess pit would overflow filling their garden with raw sewage. If a boat was filling up, they could get no water out of their taps.............

 

It may be eviction in your book, and wishing to make an emotive statement it may help you to state such, but they appear to have left of their own volition, allbeit down to unsatisfactory services.

[Lady Muck]

 

 

Lady Muck wrote :

..............When the lock cottages were occupied, tenants never stayed long - the cess pit would overflow filling their garden with raw sewage. If a boat was filling up, they could get no water out of their taps.............

 

It may be eviction in your book, and wishing to make an emotive statement it may help you to state such, but they appear to have left of their own volition, allbeit down to unsatisfactory services.

They weren't evicted, they left of their own accord and then the lock cottages were sold off.That was around two-three years ago.. they have not been lived in since. I guess they are just sitting there accumulating profit for the investor. The owner allowed the gardens to become head height in weeds then threw a load of round up down (next to a river, yes). So now we are looking at a load of waist high, black, dead weeds. Bravo London property bubble!

 

Anyway, I don't want more enforcement up here - there is more than enough already they already towed away three liveaboard boats the other week and a friend is threatened with section 8, but cannot get a mooring here as there is no availability at all.

 

If they could just do two things - empty the towpath bins and pressure wash the elsan, it would make a huge difference. And if they could agree to rolling out the caretaker boats too (they are really really dragging their heels on this no idea why) then that might take care of the flytipping etc. But a situation has been allowed to get so bad it is going to be incredibly difficult to change - Cosmic you would get a shock, if you visited, it is far worse than it ever was.

 

I think this needs to be done as a matter of urgency - I'd imagine when the big boat clearout in town happens (being dressed up as something else obviously), we will have a lot, lot more boats up here and the services will be in dire need of proper maintenance then.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Lady Muck

[mango]

Anyway, I don't want more enforcement up here - there is more than enough already they already towed away three liveaboard boats the other week and a friend is threatened with section 8, but cannot get a mooring here as there is no availability at all.

It they are threatened with Section 8 then they are ignoring the rules and have probably been doing so for some time. If I can't find a parking space, it's not OK for me to park on double-yellow lines.

 

For goodness sake don't defend those who break the rules.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Anyway, I don't want more enforcement up here - there is more than enough already they already towed away three liveaboard boats the other week and a friend is threatened with section 8, but cannot get a mooring here as there is no availability at all.

 

 

I do not know the area and there may be reasons why enforcement should not take place, so maybe you could explain what is the problem with towing away three liveaboard boats which have presumably gone through the 'process' and found to be not complying.

 

Is it not always the 'cry' that if the rules were enforced there would not be the problems (that there are perceived to be), but when the rules are enforced, as a boat "cannot get a mooring as there is no availability and is under threat of S8", it is viewed as 'wrong'.

 

The boat that cannot get a mooring, can always move to an area that they can moor, or declare a 'no home mooring' and move every 14 days (or less) as required.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Phoenix_V]

I believe the reason given for BW taking the lease off the boatyard there was that they thought the boatyard (Page and Hewit) didnt run the place well or keep it tidy!

 

That and selling off the lock cottages was the start of the downhill slide

[Lady Muck]

I do not know the area and there may be reasons why enforcement should not take place, so maybe you could explain what is the problem with towing away three liveaboard boats which have presumably gone through the 'process' and found to be not complying.

 

Is it not always the 'cry' that if the rules were enforced there would not be the problems (that there are perceived to be), but when the rules are enforced, as a boat "cannot get a mooring as there is no availability and is under threat of S8", it is viewed as 'wrong'.

 

The boat that cannot get a mooring, can always move to an area that they can moor, or declare a 'no home mooring' and move every 14 days (or less) as required.

Well there are two boats now on moorings here that were both threatened with section 8, too. Yes, 'just move' sounds great when written on paper without knowing the circumstances. In one case it was ill health that prevented movement. Anyway they were lucky to be able to win a mooring auction after losing the previous three that they bid on. And it took them five years. They did pay for a mooring elsewhere but were not well enough to move their boat to that location, so they were threatened and section 8 for not being seen on their home mooring. The boat was broken into half a dozen times and squatted once so it was not much fun for thrm on the towpath. So when people start accusing others of getting away with it, you really do not know the half of it, really.

 

I'd like to see CRT actually do some maintenance. We get enforcement and nothing else.

It they are threatened with Section 8 then they are ignoring the rules and have probably been doing so for some time. If I can't find a parking space, it's not OK for me to park on double-yellow lines.

 

For goodness sake don't defend those who break the rules.

 

I don't know the people who owned these boats, so I cannot comment. My comments rather more concern not the rights or wrongs of enforcement but why everyone serms to be obsessed with enforcement to the detriment of everything else. No one in CRT has ever given me an answer on why it is ok to not maintain things properly. Edited December 18, 2014 by Lady Muck

[Lady Muck]

Another thing that really saddens me is the mooring that went for £12k has been empty ever since. Apparently they haven't got a boat yet. Those with the money are often not the ones in most need. I think it's madness that any berths should be empty at all in these circumstances.

[Alan de Enfield]

Well there are two boats now on moorings here that were both threatened with section 8, too. Yes, 'just move' sounds great when written on paper without knowing the circumstances. In one case it was ill health that prevented movement. Anyway they were lucky to be able to win a mooring auction after losing the previous three that they bid on. And it took them five years.

 

I'd like to see CRT actually do some maintenance. We get enforcement and nothing else.

 

I don't know the people who owned these boats, so I cannot comment. My comments rather more concern not the rights or wrongs of enforcement but why everyone serms to be obsessed with enforcement to the detriment of everything else. No one in CRT has ever given me an answer on why it is ok to not maintain things properly.

 

You seem to be living amongst a hot-bed of CMers

 

3 Towed away

Your friend threatened with S8

Two more boats threatened with S8 (after 5 years they have now taken a mooring)

 

Say these 6 boats had been paying for a mooring (even £3k) then C&RT would have had £18k per annum to 'maintain things'.

[mango]

I'd like to see CRT actually do some maintenance. We get enforcement and nothing else.

I don't know the people who owned these boats, so I cannot comment. My comments rather more concern not the rights or wrongs of enforcement but why everyone serms to be obsessed with enforcement to the detriment of everything else. No one in CRT has ever given me an answer on why it is ok to not maintain things properly.

But you have commented, hence my response.

 

Don't forget that maintenance and enforcement are handled by different teams. I will not defend CRT for not maintaining facilities, though it seems as this is a challenging site. On the other hand I fully support CRT for tackling enforcement. It's a pity they ignored the problem for so long, and many do support proper enforcement. Obviously this must take into account valid reasons for overstaying.

[Jerra]

Apparently they haven't got a boat yet.

I have often seen comments on the forum about it being sensible to make sure you have somewhere for the boat to go before buying. Are you suggesting this advice is wrong?

[Lady Muck]

I'm suggesting that perhaps CRT ought to do what they used to do - rent moorings out that arent being used. Under the waiting list system this is what used to happen. We had a mooring on our site that had three different short term occupants while the person at the top of the list organised themselves to buy a boat. It's a shame that something is not used when it is so desperately needed. Its not that people are avoiding paying it's that demand far outstrips supply.

And yet when boaters work with CRT to try to do something about it they are attacked on here again. Can't win.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Lady Muck

[John V]

Many of us had high hopes for CaRT when it was put in charge of the waterways, it is very disappointing that many of these hopes have failed to materialise

[pearley]

Stonebridge Lock Waterside Centre

 

http://goo.gl/maps/SHzlO

 

This is the area we are talking about. The large building on the far right has gone with the concrete pad it sat on now being covered with the detritus of boaters. The layer of snow makes it look quite nice.

 

As Lady Muck has intimated, rubbish disposal on the Lee is abismal. The only official points seem to be Old Ford, Stonebridge, Waltham Cross and Hertford. There are however, many small bins along most stretches of the navigation, all with CRT stickers, so presumably paid by us in part, but most of them accompanied by another sticker telling you that it is not for boaters rubbish. My old Nicholson's shows water points at all the locks up to Enfield but these have steadily been removed leaving only the ones at Pickett's and Old Ford locks and to use them you need to block the lock. Coming past the Olympic Park I saw lengths of blue pipe stuck up from the towpath but I suspect these are to provide convenient means of watering the grass and trees rather than new facilities for boaters.

 

I didn't mean for this post to become another discussion on CMers but if you don't know the area please look at it on Google Maps. There is so much empty banking that twice as many CMers as there are now would hardly make a dent. I would be more exercised by boaters without a licence rather than a few overstayers.

[Lady Muck]

Its true that there just arent enough bins. The services are really reduced compared to what there used to be. I spent a month bimbling up the Stort last summer, I always had at least one bin bag on my roof (and about 20 bags of dog poo because there is nowhere to put that either).