Hate my Eberspächer; Wants to replace, but for which?

[nb Innisfree]

Had nothing but trouble with our Mikuni, struggled to ignite, slightly less so with higher voltage, smokey, carbon build up.

 

Apart from a different fuel I tried everything including replacement of ECU loaned to us by Mikuni, even tried breaking the seal and adjusting the pump speed. Just about to admit defeat when it started to improve and subsequently went on to work perfectly. and has done ever since. The only change in circumstances was the introduction of ultra low slower diesel (ULSD) in the UK which coincided with it working properly.

 

ETA: Also ignites on low voltage so that was a bit of a red herring.

Edited October 21, 2014 by nb Innisfree

[NMEA]

The only change in circumstances was the introduction of ultra low slower diesel (ULSD) in the UK which coincided with it working properly.

 

ETA: Also ignites on low voltage so that was a bit of a red herring.

Exactly so, we have observed the distinct reduction in coking since it's introduction, still happens on poorly fitted/used/adjusted installs but far, far less.

[Hawkmoth]

Most stuff suffers from not being installed, sourced, used and looked after properly, I don't thing Ebers are much worse than any evaporator heater but there are more of the used ex vehicle and new non marine versions about so it shows up more. With the preponderance of Webo TTCs being taken from vehicles and so called "refurbished", particularly in Eastern Europe in the last year or so I expect there will be similar problems emerging. That is a shame because I know absolutely that when a true marine spec unitr is correctly installed and used as it should be they are very reliable but will get a bad name through no fault of the unit. They have their limitations and advantages and not until that is understood properly will people begin to appreciate them for what they are and not what dishonest traders say, Boat builders say, "Marine Engineers" say, people who simply don't know enough about them say or what owners want them to be. They are what they are.

I do get this about poor installation. But why is that Eberspachers seem to suffer more?

I know that the fitment by the boat builder is no guarantee that it is done correctly, but what else can we go by? As I said in my post I had three of the damned things, One from the builder, and two from Eber themselves. They were bought from main agents, as "for narrowboat fitment". I didn't have trouble with the thing lighting very often. It never gave continual lighting problems, except if it needed decoking, which usually fixed the problem. It was component failure that spelt the death knell. The first one was the combustion fan, replaced under guarantee, the next two were electronic pack failure.

Bob

[NMEA]

Eber did have some issues with ECUs for a while but the Hella ones are much better, I reckon you were just unlucky, don't forget that for every complaint you hear (about anything, complainers are more vociferous and looking for a solution) there are many satisfied users who just quietly go about using them and one never hears a word from them, I have many, many installs under my belt and the frequency of problems is miniscule, it must be three years since I did a warranty job. The issues with the ECUs was the reason I would have nothing more to do with them but even though that has now been addressed I am far too busy to take on yet another dealership so will probably never want to get too heavily involved with them as I believe it is unreasonable and unprofessional to offer a service without factory training and back/support up if one means to maintain a good reputation.

Edited October 21, 2014 by NMEA

[BargeeSpud]

We have a friend with a 4kw Ebersplutter and his refuses to fire up unless he has 13V at the batteries thus meaning he has to fire his engines up in the morning to fire the heating up

 

Our Webasto seems a bit more relaxed with the voltage as it fires up even when we are down to 12.4-12.2V.

 

My D7W did the same, found out it was voltage drop (dropping to 10.5v with 12.5v in the batteries!) due to it's initial draw, so I hooked it directly to the batteries with chunky cables. End of problem, fires up every time now.

 

Wouldn't have another one though, it's going to be a Webasto on the new boat, no more huge parts/repair bills. Last repair bill for a new air pump was knocking on the door of £300! For a 12v motor measuring about 3" x 4"!? Ridiculous.

Edited October 21, 2014 by BargeeSpud

[Roger Crown]

I do get this about poor installation. But why is that Eberspachers seem to suffer more?

I know that the fitment by the boat builder is no guarantee that it is done correctly, but what else can we go by? As I said in my post I had three of the damned things, One from the builder, and two from Eber themselves. They were bought from main agents, as "for narrowboat fitment". I didn't have trouble with the thing lighting very often. It never gave continual lighting problems, except if it needed decoking, which usually fixed the problem. It was component failure that spelt the death knell. The first one was the combustion fan, replaced under guarantee, the next two were electronic pack failure.

Bob

Hi Bob

Both failures are symptomatic of the unit running in a hot environment.

These heaters, like their competitors were all designed as engine pre-heaters in cars and trucks and were/are mounted externally in free air.

Not easily possible in a boat so other measures need to be taken at the time of installation to negate the problem.

 

Roger

[Tony Brooks]

I'm thinking it's like anything in life, washing machines, cars boats, folks have good and bad experiences of all makes and models.

Some folks love Beta some folks wouldn't touch them.and prefer Iveco.

 

Is there a diference between a car thermotop heater, and a marine thermotop heater?

Is the diference between a brand new thermotop C, and a 9 year old one?

Isn't the workings ECU, burner unit, the only parts that determine the real difference between old and new?

 

Col

 

I understand that Marine Webastos have different (lower?) voltage settings than the automotive ones and many problems are caused by people buying "bargains" and fitting them in boats without re-programming the voltages in the ECU.

[NMEA]

These heaters, like their competitors were all designed as engine pre-heaters in cars and trucks and were/are mounted externally in free air.

Not easily possible in a boat so other measures need to be taken at the time of installation to negate the problem.

 

Roger

Which is to load the 5kw heaters with at least 5.5kw of load, many people do not do this, even worse many narrowboaters fit TTCs when in fact a TTE is more suited, simply because the 5.2kw C is only about £70 more than the 4.2kw E, bigger is not better, its all about proper specifying for the whole system.

[NMEA]

 

I understand that Marine Webastos have different (lower?) voltage settings than the automotive ones and many problems are caused by people buying "bargains" and fitting them in boats without re-programming the voltages in the ECU.

Exactly right Tony, and its going to get worse, there are now a lot of seemingly bargain priced "refurbished" heaters especially from Eastern Europe, penny wise, pound foolish springs to mind. There is a recent thread on here that demonstrates that perfectly, with no offence intended to the OP of that thread.

[Nickhlx]

Which is to load the 5kw heaters with at least 5.5kw of load, many people do not do this, even worse many narrowboaters fit TTCs when in fact a TTE is more suited, simply because the 5.2kw C is only about £70 more than the 4.2kw E, bigger is not better, its all about proper specifying for the whole system.

 

 

Am I right in deducing that it is necessary to "overload" the boiler, to presumably reduce the return water temp and prevent overheating within the boiler ? Surely it would have been better engineering practice for any "sensitive to over temp" components to have been designed with either better heatsinking or made from more temperature-tolerant devices / materials ? What components are at risk ?

 

Nick

[NMEA]

 

 

Am I right in deducing that it is necessary to "overload" the boiler, to presumably reduce the return water temp and prevent overheating within the boiler ? Surely it would have been better engineering practice for any "sensitive to over temp" components to have been designed with either better heatsinking or made from more temperature-tolerant devices / materials ? What components are at risk ?

 

Nick

No, the reason is to prevent cycling of the boiler, whilst PJ boilers are perfectly happy to do that evaporators are not and it can induce premature coking, all the components are designed to operate at the full chat temperature. Electronic failures are very rare except in serious hverheat situations like a complete loss of power to the heater during full burn and even then it is a risk rather than a certainty.

Edited October 21, 2014 by NMEA

[matty40s]

Why is that Ebersplutters seem to suffer with this "not installed correctly" bug? You don't hear that about other heaters, or at least not so often.

I had three of the damned things fail catastrophically on me. Two of them were the electronics, which cost nearly as much as the whole unit to replace. I wouldn't have one as a gift now.

Bob

I believe mine was installed in 2003. it works almost without fail for me , I only task it with a 35 minute run for hot water, when the engine is not used, so probably 10 days out of 14 average. I have a bathroom radiator used as a heat sink to offset the header tank boiling over.

I have pulled it apart once in 7 years and cleaned it up inside, not particularly coked up.

Recently, following failed starts, I have had to pull the relay out and start again once I had the engine running, , however, the battery voltage was at 12.4-5 so probably not ideal.

[Nickhlx]

Great information - thanks ...

 

I have been running my Webasto on 28 second since new ( now 4 years+ old) as I was told it was "better" ( cleaner burn), and it is somewhat cheaper than diesel..

 

This seems to have been good information or is there a issue looming (slowly) ?

 

Nick

[NMEA]

Great information - thanks ...

 

I have been running my Webasto on 28 second since new ( now 4 years+ old) as I was told it was "better" ( cleaner burn), and it is somewhat cheaper than diesel..

 

This seems to have been good information or is there a issue looming (slowly) ?

 

Nick

28 sec heating oil is kerosene and will certainly be much better than the old high sulphur red, whether better than the current ULSD...maybe. You were not badly advised and I wouldn't worry about continuing to to do so.

[Nickhlx]

Phew ! Thanks for the confirmation ! I haven't yet had to de-coke, but are not a live-aboard either so doesn't get as much use as some...

 

Thanks again,

 

Nick

[Glynn]

We've had two Webasto Thermotops, never had any problems whatsoever with them.

[Tony Brooks]

Great information - thanks ...

 

I have been running my Webasto on 28 second since new ( now 4 years+ old) as I was told it was "better" ( cleaner burn), and it is somewhat cheaper than diesel..

 

This seems to have been good information or is there a issue looming (slowly) ?

 

Nick

 

In the 60s/70s we always ran the hire fleet Webastos on 28 second heating oil and they were much more reliable for it. However the combustion "process" was rather different to today's methods. I had enough of all such heaters then (before ECU control!) to ensure I fitted an Alde and am happy to pay for the gas.

[Hawkmoth]

Hi Bob

Both failures are symptomatic of the unit running in a hot environment.

These heaters, like their competitors were all designed as engine pre-heaters in cars and trucks and were/are mounted externally in free air.

Not easily possible in a boat so other measures need to be taken at the time of installation to negate the problem.

 

Roger

 

I believe mine was installed in 2003. it works almost without fail for me , I only task it with a 35 minute run for hot water, when the engine is not used, so probably 10 days out of 14 average. I have a bathroom radiator used as a heat sink to offset the header tank boiling over.

I have pulled it apart once in 7 years and cleaned it up inside, not particularly coked up.

Recently, following failed starts, I have had to pull the relay out and start again once I had the engine running, , however, the battery voltage was at 12.4-5 so probably not ideal.

OK, I'll accept that installation may be responsible for a great deal of the troubles. There is still a big BUT though. This unit was designed for automobile use and doesn't perform well as a boat heater. If you use it the same as a car/lorry then it's OK, but as a central heating unit it leaves a lot to be desired.

Those who want a proper central heating system in their boats should look elsewhere.

Just to add I do understand that a lot of people want don't want central heating, fine, but we do.

Bob

[NMEA]

 

I do understand that a lot of people want don't want central heating, fine, but we do.

Bob

If by central heating you mean full time then you need to buy a pressure jet system, if you mean a couple of hours in the morning and evening before you light the stove then a properly installed system, and I mean the whole system evaporator will serve you perfectly well.

[Hawkmoth]

If by central heating you mean full time then you need to buy a pressure jet system, if you mean a couple of hours in the morning and evening before you light the stove then a properly installed system, and I mean the whole system evaporator will serve you perfectly well.

We did finally go for the pressure jet system, and love it.

Bob

[blackrose]

Eberspacher, 6 years, over 4 of that live aboard, no issues.

Have to go and check its fired up in the engine room its that quiet.

 

All about the installation

 

Roger

 

That's what I said and then mine died. Good luck!

 

You assume correctly and I have to agree with you that it is rare to see a correctly installed unit.

 

Roger

 

Very true, Eberspachers were never really designed to be installed on boats and run on red diesel.

[blackrose]

If money was no object I think I'd get a Hurricane.

 

The guy's voice on the video is so reassuring!

 

Edited October 25, 2014 by blackrose

[bizzard]

If money was no object I'd buy a Hurricane too, a Hawker job. I'm bored with all the Spitfire hype. The Hurricane doesn't get much of a look in. After all the Hurricane shot down more enemy planes than the Spitfire albeit they were bombers.

[NMEA]

It really is time they updated that video, its nearly fifteen years old, mind you maybe as has been said, the more relaxed style is more reassuring than some of the promo videos being produced recently which do tend to hurt the head a little.

Edited October 25, 2014 by NMEA

[raymondh]

Bob,

Whate was the outcome

"After all the usual already discussed problems with an Erberspacher we decided to bite the bullet and fork out for a Hurricane.
Lovely, at first. After about 11 months the compressor started to get noisy and finally at one year it failed completely.
Calcutt were very good, and fitted a new one straight away, but this one has now been getting noisy and showing the same signs of failure. I have been in touch with Calcutt who admit there is a problem with a newer design of compressor and I'm worried that even if they fit another new one the guarantee will run out in few more months and we may be left with having to buy a new one every year or so.
Anyone out there in the same boat?"

Ray