Nottingham boat sales

[muddywaters]

So can anyone tell me how bona fide this is? Will this "customer "trust account" remain separate should the brokerage go t*ts up?

Well according to the company and the way they describe it, if the company did fold the money would be protected.

Hope it never has to be tested TBH

[Alan de Enfield]

Traveller, on 29 Sept 2014 - 5:41 PM, said:

Maybe but surely if a broker says it has a trust account and does not then that is fraud. I think it was said earlier in this thread that there are only a couple of Brokers that claim to have a 'client account'

 

Also if a broker says it has a trust account you would (or I would) expect the auditors to check it and especially check it to ensure the company was not using client money to run what is an insolvent business.

There is no legal requirement to have a seperate 'client account', the broker can quite legally use any income from boat sales to run his business as he sees fit - when the seller of the boat is due to be paid, he just becomes another (unpaid) creditor.

It is just like me having my personal bank accounts, and then one named "Boat Account" which is used for buying all the boaty consumables, licence etc.

 

I suppose a clean way would be for brokers to run a trust/escrow account outside of their own books, perhaps with a trust bank or solicitor.

Without legislation it is unlikely, maybe if a few brokers did it voluntarily (and could prove it with a solictors letter) they would have a good USP and other brokers would be forced to follow suit of 'fold'

 

The question of legal ownership is an interesting one and I lean towards the fact that the broker is the vendors agent and therefore the vendors risk.

Athy, on 29 Sept 2014 - 5:47 PM, said:

is it not extraordinary that, if NBS have ceased trading, they still have over 70 boats listed for sale on Apollo Duck, and their own web site remains open and, indeed, shows that it has been updated today? How can this be?

 

Thats the job of a Liquidation Administrator - keep the business running until it can be sold off, asset stripped, or closed down.

My Son had to 'administer' a chain of "Care Homes" for almost a year. The administrator is now responsible for any bills incurred and he is the guarantee that any bills will be paid (electricity, wages etc) after the date in which he starts his role.

 

Any boats which the administrator can sell, the commission can be used to pay off debts.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Athy]

 

Thats the job of a Liquidation Administrator - keep the business running until it can be sold off, asset stripped, or closed down.

My Son had to 'administer' a chain of "Care Homes" for almost a year. The administrator is now responsible for any bills incurred and he is the guarantee that any bills will be paid (electricity, wages etc) after the date in which he starts his role.

 

Any boats which the administrator can sell, the commission can be used to pay off debts.

Yes, but it does not tally with reports earlier in this thread that the premises appeared to be closed and deserted. There is no point in advertising boats for sale if there is no one there to sell them, nor in advertising one's opening times if they're not going to be open at those times!

[Foxtrot]

I'm currently buying a boat from Castle Marina. This doesn't effect me as far as I can tell, but does make me wonder as the guy I'm deal with is called David. Originally dealing with Chris. Currently got a deposit down, and the boat I' looking at is having work done by a freelance engineer. Should I worry at all?

 

Foxy

[Alan de Enfield]

Should I worry at all?

 

Foxy

 

No - totally different company (but they did originally share the same yard)

 

Dont worry until you hear the hounds baying behind you

[Traveller]

I'm currently buying a boat from Castle Marina. This doesn't effect me as far as I can tell, but does make me wonder as the guy I'm deal with is called David. Originally dealing with Chris. Currently got a deposit down, and the boat I' looking at is having work done by a freelance engineer. Should I worry at all?

 

Foxy

 

Think I would ask for confirmation that your deposit is held in a designated client account that is ring fenced from the business accounts and that in the event of insolvency your money will not be treated as belonging to the business

Edited September 29, 2014 by Traveller

[Foxtrot]

 

No - totally different company (but they did originally share the same yard)

 

Dont worry until you hear the hounds baying behind you

 

Held my breath for a minute. The deposit wasnt a small one! And the facebook page still shows pictures from the same marina.

Still a pretty close call though.

 

Edit: Just checked my bank statment, deposit defo went to David Mawby Ltd.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Foxtrot

[Traveller]

I would still check. No harm in being careful and it seems your cash has gone to the company not a client account maintained by the company on behalf of the purchaser. I am not suggesting anything is awry but as you do not know you should ask what is a reasonable question.

[Slimboat]

I'm currently buying a boat from Castle Marina. This doesn't effect me as far as I can tell, but does make me wonder as the guy I'm deal with is called David. Originally dealing with Chris. Currently got a deposit down, and the boat I' looking at is having work done by a freelance engineer. Should I worry at all?

 

Foxy

You won't have any problems with David, he runs his business properly and is a very good payer, I believe he also keeps a totally seperate brokerage account to avoid this happening

[David Mack]

Surely time it was changed to a system where seller pays brokers commission after boat sold and all monies go from buyer direct to seller.

 

 

 

No guarantee the broker would get paid.

The only way to "square the circle" is to sell it privately (maybe via Apollo Duck) and pay/receive cash - then you get in a mess with money laundering (above £10,000 cash)

 

Or perhaps the buyer, on completing the deal, writes 2 cheques, one payable to the vendor for the full price less the broker's fee and one to the broker to the value of his fee. That way nobody's money is at risk.

 

 

ETA adjusting for the deposit already paid

[David Mack]

 

I stand to be corrected by my learned friends - but - I dont believe that to be the case.

Legally - the broker is the Vendors agent, so by paying the broker, the buyer is paying the vendor.

 

I too would like m'learned friend's view. If you bought a car with finance outstanding it would still be the finance company's car, and I'm pretty sure they would take it back, whether you bought it privately or through a dealer (who is presumably analagous to a boat broker).

[Trillian]

 

I too would like m'learned friend's view. If you bought a car with finance outstanding it would still be the finance company's car, and I'm pretty sure they would take it back, whether you bought it privately or through a dealer (who is presumably analagous to a boat broker).

 

That is partly my concern, along with a very old fashioned upbringing that means I wouldn't feel comfortable living on a boat if I suspect the previous owner didn't receive their money. Just a personal quirk regardless of legalities. If by some miracle the funds for the boat become available I might need to try to contact the seller personally. Though I do quite like the idea of paying the broker their fees etc and the vendor separately their share of the money.

[Alan de Enfield]

David Mack, on 29 Sept 2014 - 7:00 PM, said:David Mack, on 29 Sept 2014 - 7:00 PM, said:David Mack, on 29 Sept 2014 - 7:00 PM, said:

 

I too would like m'learned friend's view. If you bought a car with finance outstanding it would still be the finance company's car, and I'm pretty sure they would take it back, whether you bought it privately or through a dealer (who is presumably analagous to a boat broker).

 

 

I would suggest that your analogy is flawed in that, the Finance company will be the actual owners of the boat (until it is paid off in full) whilst (what may be perceived as the owner) the 'user' has no authority to sell the boat without the owners permission. In that instance the seller has actually commited theft (and maybe Selling Stolen Goods) by selling something that does not belong to him.

 

The buyer of the boat is in receipt of stolen goods, and in law, has the boat taken from them with no recompense.

 

I am not aware of any car dealers that sell cars owned by other people and just take a commission, they will buy the car themselves and then sell it at a profit, so, they are not acting anything like a boat brokerage service.

 

This is why, when I either buy or sell a boat, I write my own receipt and it is signed by both parties.

You need to ensure the following statements are incuded on a receipt :

 

IN CONSIDERATION of the sum of £1.00 plus considerations totaling £xx,xxx paid to us by the Transferee(s) receipt of which is acknowledged; the Transferor(s) hereby:

 

1. Transfer the Boat to the Transferee(s);

 

2. For ourselves and for our heirs covenant with the Transferee(s) and his/their heirs and assigns that we have power so to transfer and that the Boat is free from encumbrances.

 

3. The boat is sold with no warranty given or implied.

 

4. The liability of any costs of insurance and mooring are the responsibility of the Transferees from the date of this bill of sale.

You are then buying/selling a boat which is free from encumbrances, or you have been informed that it is, and is therefore no fault of yours if it is later found not to be so. You can do nothing more to safeguard you position

Edit to add the 'receipt' info

Edited September 30, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Naughty Cal]

Just found out our friends boat is still in their yard with work they have paid for not being done. In fact the boat is no in a bit of a sorry state and far worse than when they took it their for work doing prior to being sold. He is quite rightly gutted and waiting to find out where he stands.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Did that arrive by road, or water ?

 

It looks to have a very strange 'water line', did it sit with a very high bow ?

 

It sounds like quite a few people are going to be involved in this debarcle

[Delta9]

 

No guarantee the broker would get paid.

 

This problem could be solved with multisig bitcoin addresses if brokers started accepting bitcoin.

[Naughty Cal]

Did that arrive by road, or water ?

 

It looks to have a very strange 'water line', did it sit with a very high bow ?

 

It sounds like quite a few people are going to be involved in this debarcle

It did a bit.

 

It went up the Trent under its own steam but dont know how it got to the yard.

[MtB]

I thought client money had to be kept in an account isolated from that of the business so there could be no cross contamination.

 

 

I think you're confusing solicitors and estate agents with marine brokers (or any other type of broker).

 

There is no such legal requirement that I know of.

 

 

MtB

[Athy]

He is quite rightly gutted and waiting to find out where he stands.

 

On the yard foreman's head might be a start.

[MtB]

And there was me buying through a brokers because I thought I would have some protection.

Why did you think this? Genuinely puzzled.

 

 

The brokers I went through had a customer trust account supposedly unconnected with the business so that if anything did go wrong your money was protected

I doubt the legal validity of these. I suspect they are just an administrative device to help keep the accounting clear. Sometimes brokers have them but as I understand it the broker remains in full control of the account, as does the administrator if/when the broker goes into administration. He will then clear it out to pay the preferential creditors.

 

Always treat legal and accountancy advice from plumbers (and brokers) with deep suspicion.

 

MtB

Edited September 30, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[Traveller]

 

 

I think you're confusing solicitors and estate agents with marine brokers (or any other type of broker).

 

There is no such legal requirement that I know of.

 

 

MtB

That is likely true MtB but (and it is a but, I agree) if they say they have a client account they are obliged to run one, else they are guilty of misrepresentation amongst other things. All down to how the terms of business are stated I guess. I for one would not pay money to a broker who would not confirm in writing that my cash was held separately from the business accounts.

 

Also would have expected the auditors to pick up discrepancies between stated operating procedures and actual.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Traveller

[muddywaters]

I'm not sure if it's the buyers or the sellers that would lose out in the event of a brockerage folding and the money being swallowed up by other debts. If you're buying I'm guessing you transfer for the cash, turn up and take the boat. What happens to the cash after that isn't your problem. Or am I missing something?

I would guess that would depend on if the boat had been handed over or not

That is likely true MtB but (and it is a but, I agree) if they say they have a client account they are obliged to run one, else they are guilty of misrepresentation amongst other things. All down to how the terms of business are stated I guess. I for one would not pay money to a broker who would not confirm in writing that my cash was held separately from the business accounts.

 

Also would have expected the auditors to pick up discrepancies between stated operating procedures and actual.

I actually have got that in writing

[Alan de Enfield]

. I for one would not pay money to a broker who would not confirm in writing that my cash was held separately from the business accounts.

 

 

 

 

Thats all well and good, but as there is no legal requirement for them to have such an account, there is therefore nothing illegal in them using that account for 'running the business'.

 

Apart from 'scale' it is exactly the same as them having a jar saying 'coffee money' and they use it to buy biscuits, or toilet paper. - you cannot legally enforce them to do something that is legally unenforcable, and, if they use the coffee money to buy biscuits they can do so if they wish.

 

If they voluntarily decide to set up an 'untouchable' bank account and use a Solicitor to control it, then, "good on them" they have gone beyond the industries requirements, and it is a huge USP to attract sellers / buyers to their business.

Saying to prospective buyers / sellers that "we hold customers money in a seperate account" does not mean it cannot be used, purely that it is held seperate to ease accounting functions.

[muddywaters]

I would still check. No harm in being careful and it seems your cash has gone to the company not a client account maintained by the company on behalf of the purchaser. I am not suggesting anything is awry but as you do not know you should ask what is a reasonable question.

My deposit went to the company account but the balance payment went into the client account.

Bought my boat through Great Haywood Boat sales.

Edited September 30, 2014 by muddywaters

[Traveller]

Wonder why GH would use two accounts. Is not the deposit also client money!