Dodgy Welding

[Pennie]

Just had a boat I'm planning on buying (my first boat yay) survey done and though I haven't had the full report through in the post yet I spoke with my surveyor this afternoon on the phone and he had to tell me one important worry he had.

 

Its a 2008 12mm bottom plate hulled boat yet it seems to be in poor condition especially the welding. Its very rough and "corners and edges exposed" he explained and that was just in the small area of paint he took away in the survey. He said what it really needs is to come out of the water again and be sand blasted to look at all the metal work.

 

I know I'm thinking ahead a little and must wait for the full survey to come in the post, but does this sound like a red flag to those of you more experienced than I? It is by a builder I haven't been able to find on Google (but I thought maybe he has retired, didn't make many boats in his own name, or something) of which was my first warning but it was a fairly new hull and within my price range.

 

What sort of work do you think would need doing to rectify the bad metal work, if it can be done? Also what of this investigation/work would be at my cost and what would be that of the seller? Oh one last question - cost? If it can be fixed what sort of price would I be looking at so I can renegotiate if the bad welds aren't the end of the world?

Just don't want my first boat to come apart at the seems, quite literally :-S but I don't want to walk away from a boat I like and have gone to the expense of the survey for a second time.

 

Many thanks everyone in advance

Pennie

[Boat&Bikes]

Who was the builder?

[Arthur Brown]

What do you actually LIKE about the boat?

[Boat&Bikes]

What do you actually LIKE about the boat?

Probably not the welding...

 

Ian.

[Pennie]

I've actually found the builder now, it seems there was a mix up with the names. He is David Bowman (although the marina has it down as Bowan)

 

 

What do I like about the boat? Mainly I can afford it and its age. But no the welding and the paint work aren't my most favourite bits lol

 

 

 

Actually it could be Bowan and no I can't actually find much about him after just having another gander on Google.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Pennie

[MtB]

Keep looking. Next time pick a boat to survey by a recognised builder with a track record!

 

Expensive this boating lark, if want to rule out all risk.

 

 

MtB

[Pennie]

I was sort of thinking this Mike, sad as it may be to walk away again. We shall see what the seller says after the survey next week before I make a decision though

[Paul C]

May I ask what your budget and age/length/style of boat you're looking for is? Because it appears that you've found 2 duds so far.

[Pennie]

I know, awful bad choices (though honestly seemed good pre-survey)

 

Currently layout and style can be anything I just want to get onto the water and if I don't have the perfect boat to start with that is ok, you have to start somewhere. Length I'd prefer something 36-45 ft and I have a (rather low) grand total of £20k for my budget. Age I don't find so long as its sound. I've been looking at newer boats with the hope that they will need less metal work doing but it would seem new doesn't always equal good

Edited September 2, 2014 by Pennie

[alan_fincher]

This boat?

 

Link to Venetian Marina ad.

 

Hull Manufacturer David Bowan - Custom built

 

 

I think this means it is a DIY build, not a build by a recognised shell builer.

 

The "Boat Listing shows only one boat built by him.

 

 

Josephine Salford Built by David Bowman - Length 12.8 metres ( 42 feet ) - Beam 2.08 metres ( 6 feet 10 inches ) - Draft 0.61 ( 2 feet ). Metal hull, . Registered with Canal & River Trust number 520771 as a Powered. Last registration recorded on Wednesday 22nd May 2013.

 

Perhaps he just isn't a very good welder!

Edited September 3, 2014 by alan_fincher

[Pennie]

Yep that's the one. Ah I see, I was thinking the custom built meant the choice of design and the fact the inside was hand built.

[mark99]

You need the expert on the ground (surveyor) to advise you re the welding specific/cost/remediials- we cannot from afar.

 

What perhaps the forum can offer is an opinion of whether any of the next work (reslipping, blasting and resurveying) is worth it - my opinion is no - bale out now. It smacks of throwing good money after bad.

Edited September 2, 2014 by mark99

[Alan de Enfield]

Just some unconnected ramblings for consideration.

 

£20,000 is not a huge budget and, in that price bracket, you will be lucky to find a boat that needs nothing spending on it.

You need to budget for Suveys and lift outs (as you have found) and each time reduces your budget by £500/£800

You will almost certainlyneed to budget for Blacking (£400)

You may well need to budget for the Licence £700+

You may well need to budget, in the near future, for the BSS

You will need to save (say) £2000 for unexpected repairs in the first few months.

 

This basically means that you should be looking at boats around £16k-£17k with the hope you can get them for £15k

 

The further down the price scale you go, the more it will cost you in the future.

EG -plating costs that were identified as £3-£4k actually turned out to be above £10k once the work started.

 

A 2008 boat at under £20k - there is something wrong with it.

 

This all comes across as negative (and I suppose it is) but it is actually intended to help you - I reckon for every £1000 you can increase your budget you will save much more than that in running/maintenance/breakdown costs.

 

We all know that "want it now" feeling, but try and save up for another 6 months, or 12 months - there are a lot of good boats out there at £25k

 

Spend every penny on a good (well known makers) hull and solid reliable engine. You can live with the insides (as long as its dry and warm) and do a bit of decorating etc as the money comes in.

 

Good hunting, and good luck.

[David Mack]

This boat?

 

http://www.venetianmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/2901.aspx

 

 

That links back to the thread for me. Do you mean this?

 

From the photos the steelwork looks quite crude, which would be consistent with this being a one off rather than the product of a regular boatbuilder. I note also that the hull hasn't been blacked for 4 years and the BSC ran out more than 2 1/2 years ago.

 

There must be better boats out there for that sort of money.

 

Pennie, rather than waste more money on surveys, you would be better asking on here for an opinion on boats you are interested in. Or ask if a forum member with more experience would come and look at a boat with you. That should give you more chance of avoiding another lemon.

 

Best wishes in your search.

[Pennie]

Not negative at all, I appreciate all forms of advice. Its all stuff I have considered. I know my budget is very low despite saving for the last 4 years. Coming to realise that another year down the line I will have a much better budget and much wider choice of options just hope I don't go more insane inside bricks and mortar lol

[Paul C]

I know, awful bad choices (though honestly seemed good pre-survey)

 

Currently layout and style can be anything I just want to get onto the water and if I don't have the perfect boat to start with that is ok, you have to start somewhere. Length I'd prefer something 36-45 ft and I have a (rather low) grand total of £20k for my budget. Age I don't find so long as its sound. I've been looking at newer boats with the hope that they will need less metal work doing but it would seem new doesn't always equal good

 

Yeah Alan de Enfield has put it quite nicely on post #13, basically a £20k boat is going to have issues. If its an older boat, these are likely to be age-related issues, the majority of which are fixable (obviously, at a cost though). If its a newer boat then the issues may well be down to poor manufacture or some weird quirk in the design which is much harder to fix. Everyone wants a £30k boat for £20k, and there's plenty of others around with cash waiting so unfortunately, to find a bargain you'll need to be quick/lucky. My best advice would be go for smaller rather than larger, since a small boat has less appeal to most, thus a smaller market and there's a kinda price "ceiling" on them. But then I bet you want more space than a 35ft boat can offer...

[Pennie]

For my first boat I did go in quite blind and I did go alone however I took a family friend with me to this one who has experience of boats and though he agrees with the "crude" description he thought it may be a possibility with negotiation around the price (to which I was successful)

 

Will definitely ask for opinions prior to making any decisions next time. I forgot how useful forums are d'oh

 

Thank you everyone

[John V]

With dodgy welding if it was only a bodged repair job, that could be fixed. A whole build could be another matter

[alan_fincher]

 

That links back to the thread for me. Do you mean this?

 

 

Oops....

 

Now corrected in my posting.

 

I agree with that "Pennie" could really do to get some others involved in looking at candidate boats before committing to a full survey.

 

Lots of alarm bells here, if the advert is actually correct.....

 

1) Unknown builder

2) Use of a BMC 1.5 in a boat claimed to be just 6 years old - nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but looks like bid to do things cheaply. What is the history of this engine, and was it a properly reconditioned unit?

3) Raw water cooling - another implied attempt to do things cheaply - search out the experiences of forum members Fade to Scarlet and Black Ibis with a raw water cooled BMC 1.5, (which had to be converted to a skin tank to overcome the issues).

4) 2008 boat, but new anodes in 2010. If it really needed new anodes after 2 years, and has now gone twice that long without a docking, might it not already need some more?

5) Electrolux RM 4400 Fridge described at 12v /240 v, but is almost certainly a "3-way" model that could not realistically run on either whilst cruising, and is hence useless unless also connected for LPG operation.

 

You may be aware of all this, of course, and have had satisfactory answers on those points before committing to a survey, but if not, they are all the kind of thing that can easily be worked out by someone just from the details, without even seeing the boat.

 

One more thing would be on my mind - if this is a "DIY" boat, to the extent that even the steelwork is DIY, does it come with all the correct paperwork for the RCD, (Recreational Craft Directive)? I'm no expert on the RCD, (I've never owned a boat new enough!), but a boat this new should be fully compliant.

[Hoose]

The first boat we had surveyed turned out to be a proper rough dog, we thought we had kissed goodbye to our £800 but it was best to leave this boat WELL alone, however, our surveyor managed to sell our survey to the next potential buyer for £400 so we managed to recoup some of our money. Despite the money you really do need boats checking over!

[Athy]

In your price range, it is worth looking at Springers. They are a very mixed bag and condition ranges from lovingly maintained to ohcorblimey. Apollo Duck lists a 36-footer for sale near you (Long Eaton - probably Sawley marina judging by the photo) at £16,000. The advert does not give copious details (only one photo for example) but there is a landline contact number if you want to ask questions. Worth a look - it may be a nail or it may be a gem.

[MtB]

In your price range, it is worth looking at Springers. They are a very mixed bag and condition ranges from lovingly maintained to ohcorblimey. Apollo Duck lists a 36-footer for sale near you (Long Eaton - probably Sawley marina judging by the photo) at £16,000. The advert does not give copious details (only one photo for example) but there is a landline contact number if you want to ask questions. Worth a look - it may be a nail or it may be a gem.

 

Seconded.

 

There are LOTS of Springers on Apollduck, illustrating the wide range of prices and conditions.

 

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=349246

 

Well worth a browse.

 

 

MtB

[Naughty Cal]

This boat?

 

Link to Venetian Marina ad.

 

 

I think this means it is a DIY build, not a build by a recognised shell builer.

 

The "Boat Listing shows only one boat built by him.

 

 

Perhaps he just isn't a very good welder!

 

Personally I would steer well clear of that.

 

The fit out doesnt look great either, never mind the crude welding, lack of safety test and an age since last blacking. Money pit springs to mind

[Athy]

 

Seconded.

 

There are LOTS of Springers on Apollduck, illustrating the wide range of prices and conditions.

 

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=349246

 

Well worth a browse.

 

 

MtB

That looks like a good 'un, and also in Pennie's geographical area. It's a bit shorter than she wants but, like many smaller Springers, the lack of a front well deck means that the interior space is well used.

 

One drawback is that the only place to sit is also the bed, but it looks as if there could be space for a free-standing chair in front of the stove.

[Naughty Cal]

That looks like a good 'un, and also in Pennie's geographical area. It's a bit shorter than she wants but, like many smaller Springers, the lack of a front well deck means that the interior space is well used.

 

One drawback is that the only place to sit is also the bed, but it looks as if there could be space for a free-standing chair in front of the stove.

 

Need to check how it sits in the water having been overplated as well!!