Boater With Home Mooring - Court Action Started.

[junior]

It sounds to me like they picked on someone without checking out the evidence properly first. If it gets thrown out of court, CRT won't have helped that particular cause. What a waste of time and money....again!

What about if we are being fed selective evidence and they are confident they have a water tight case when both sides of the story are taken into account?

Edited July 15, 2014 by junior

[bassplayer]

What about if we are being fed selective evidence and they are confident they have a water tight case when both sides of the story are taken into account?

Ok, well it sounds like it is a case of wait and see then.

 

I still believe that if someone has a genuine grievance and is getting no joy from the normal process, they should take it up directly with the CEO. I'd also use what media exposure I could get my hands on and record the course of events publicly.

 

Then again it would be embarrassing doing this if you hadn't got a genuine case!

[bassplayer]

 

As far as why CRT is going to such extremes for enforcement in this case, CRT has a real big problem with CMers in London. It could very well be that they are "getting their feet wet" with this rather innocuous enforcement action to see how a court might react if/when they start trying to be more stringent with enforcement in the London area.

Fear causes self policing. CRT may well feel it it's worth throwing time and money at it. The trouble is that if they keep losing, nobody will take them seriously.

 

I like your suggested court comments by the way. Have you done this before?

[Ssscrudddy]

Personally I wouldnt want to guarantee to the court that I would abide by whatever guidance CaRT comes up with.
Some years ago the DVLA tried to do me for not SORNing a motorbike. I had SORNed it. They said I didnt follow their guidance in doing so, their guidance required me to chase it up, due to lots of crap going on in my life at the time I hadnt chased it up, my argument was that I didnt need to chase it up & that I had done everything in law required of me.
The point is the DVLAs guidance was outside of the law (& they knew it). At that point in time, every time this had gone to court for anyone else who contested it the DVLA withdrew the case, quite simply they didnt want it testing in court. When I was in court I pleaded not guilty, at which point they withdrew the case. Anyone who didnt contest it in court (by not showing up) got found guilty & stuck with a big fine.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Ssscrudddy

[KevMc]

That, and the fact that enforcement has in the past been lax.

A published code of conduct for boaters and the enforcement officers would go a long way to sort a lot of this stuff out. The joint associations have asked Richard Parry to look into doing this.

 

I do fear though that the trust are just hell bent on winning a court case, at any cost...

 

Didn't CRT do that .... and were promptly challenged in to court (or have I misremembered that rather long runing saga?)

[bassplayer]

Personally I wouldnt want to guarantee to the court that I would abide by whatever guidance CaRT comes up with.

Some years ago the DVLA tried to do me for not SORNing a motorbike. I had SORNed it. They said I didnt follow their guidance in doing so, their guidance required me to chase it up, due to lots of crap going on in my life at the time I hadnt chased it up, my argument was that I didnt need to chase it up & that I had done everything in law required of me.

The point is the DVLAs guidance was outside of the law (& they knew it). At that point in time, every time this had gone to court for anyone else who contested it the DVLA withdrew the case, quite simply they didnt want it testing in court. When I was in court I pleaded not guilty, at which point they withdrew the case. Anyone who didnt contest it in court (by not showing up) got found guilty & stuck with a big fine.

So in most cases fear wins, despite there being no legal basis behind it. The only way forward is for more people to sue organisations for harassment and causing distress. The problem is that organisations think that many are not in a position to fight their case.

 

What the 'organisations' forget though, is that the stress comes out in other ways. There's an old saying...'beware those who have nothing to lose'...Do we want lots of people in our society who have lost respect for the law and order?

 

I think there is another angle to all this. In the time I've cruised around the country, I've seen live aboards which I suspect have been moored up in the same place for many months/years. Generally they are moored well out of the way of VM's and in spots where most of us wouldn't consider mooring. This has been the case for decades but we never really gave them a hard time. Why now?

 

Has this new action been triggered by a few boaters who can't see the big picture? We have squatters in houses, yes some take the piss, but others have a genuine need. The waterways have always been a home to many, so why not leave those who are really struggling alone?

 

We seem to making a tangled web of confusion just to manage a small minority and we could all suffer in the end.

[jenlyn]

So in most cases fear wins, despite there being no legal basis behind it. The only way forward is for more people to sue organisations for harassment and causing distress. The problem is that organisations think that many are not in a position to fight their case.

What the 'organisations' forget though, is that the stress comes out in other ways. There's an old saying...'beware those who have nothing to lose'...Do we want lots of people in our society who have lost respect for the law and order?

I think there is another angle to all this. In the time I've cruised around the country, I've seen live aboards which I suspect have been moored up in the same place for many months/years. Generally they are moored well out of the way of VM's and in spots where most of us wouldn't consider mooring. This has been the case for decades but we never really gave them a hard time. Why now?

Has this new action been triggered by a few boaters who can't see the big picture? We have squatters in houses, yes some take the piss, but others have a genuine need. The waterways have always been a home to many, so why not leave those who are really struggling alone?

We seem to making a tangled web of confusion just to manage a small minority and we could all suffer in the end.

Greenie, that's really well put.

The only problem being, that minority is growing. I'm a continuous cruiser with a widebeam, so my cruising in the south is limited to the thames, KandA, grand union London to Birmingham. The problem areas if you like.

The numbers are growing, and the enforcement teams are not dealing with it in my opinion as they should be.

[bassplayer]

Greenie, that's really well put.

The only problem being, that minority is growing. I'm a continuous cruiser with a widebeam, so my cruising in the south is limited to the thames, KandA, grand union London to Birmingham. The problem areas if you like.

The numbers are growing, and the enforcement teams are not dealing with it in my opinion as they should be.

Are the numbers growing though? Not that it would surprise me. Have you had situations where you couldn't moor up overnight?

 

I used to whinge about not getting that ideal mooring next to a pub (which I know was silly) and I have had to moor up on lock mooring posts overnight a couple of times. However, having travelled all around the country (including the K&A and GU) I don't see such a big problem. Middle of London maybe.

 

I suppose July and August are going to be particularly busy so it might be a different story. I can imagine why those who only cruise during peak times complain if that's the only view they get of the world. That's why some of these rules should be seasonal, not over a 12 month period.

 

...and Steve...you chose to buy a huge wide beam...nice boat BTW...saw you through Cosgrove but didn't get a chance to tag you...

[jenlyn]

Are the numbers growing though? Not that it would surprise me. Have you had situations where you couldn't moor up overnight?

I used to whinge about not getting that ideal mooring next to a pub (which I know was silly) and I have had to moor up on lock mooring posts overnight a couple of times. However, having travelled all around the country (including the K&A and GU) I don't see such a big problem. Middle of London maybe.

I suppose July and August are going to be particularly busy so it might be a different story. I can imagine why those who only cruise during peak times complain if that's the only view they get of the world. That's why some of these rules should be seasonal, not over a 12 month period.

...and Steve...you chose to buy a huge wide beam...nice boat BTW...saw you through Cosgrove but didn't get a chance to tag you...

Yes, the numbers are growing. Not necessarily liveaboards either.

I don't frequent pubs, doesn't appeal to me.

I see the little community's expanding though, and see them becoming a problem in the next couple of years, no point in denial.

 

Yes, my fault I bought a widebeam. I have enjoyed it though, and don't regret buying it.

Maybe time for a narrowboat ;-)

[bassplayer]

Yes, the numbers are growing. Not necessarily liveaboards either.

I don't frequent pubs, doesn't appeal to me.

I see the little community's expanding though, and see them becoming a problem in the next couple of years, no point in denial.

 

Yes, my fault I bought a widebeam. I have enjoyed it though, and don't regret buying it.

Maybe time for a narrowboat ;-)

The only annoyance I've seen in the last couple of years is the emergence of 48 hour restrictions at the expense of 14 day moorings.

 

I quite like seeing these little communities building up. It serves as a reminder to everyone that there's strength in unity. Again, I don't see them set up in prime VM spots, maybe they have respect for the rest of us. Can't comment on London though, I haven't been there enough.

 

Go for a narrowboat, you'll enjoy the North.

[Captain Zim]

Yes, the numbers are growing. Not necessarily liveaboards either.

But are they? My experience since Christmas coming through London and up the grand union is of a lot less boats actually. Many places that were historically impossible to moor in are now free and not only that, people actually seem to be moving every 14 days. London was definitely quieter from Little Venice out west than the last two or three years. And as I say, there has been steady movement where previously there was very little. I think CRT have had a bit of a word and it's working. Well done to them as maybe it's not all as bad as some like to suggest?

[b0atman]

Captain Zim hopefully you are right and boaters are starting to conform to what the majority have done .

Next is for CRT to be more sensible on mooring stop times based on local knowledge.

48 hours is not enough in some areas but seems to be the max or are there 72 hours and 96 hour mooring limits.at what point will it become days ?

[bassplayer]

But are they? My experience since Christmas coming through London and up the grand union is of a lot less boats actually. Many places that were historically impossible to moor in are now free and not only that, people actually seem to be moving every 14 days. London was definitely quieter from Little Venice out west than the last two or three years. And as I say, there has been steady movement where previously there was very little. I think CRT have had a bit of a word and it's working. Well done to them as maybe it's not all as bad as some like to suggest?

As I said, I can't really comment on London but theoretically movement doesn't really make any difference as everyone has to find a mooring at the end of a cruise. The problem will obviously be worse at peak times of the year when everyone piles out of the marinas and expects to find a prime mooring.

 

If it appears there are more moorings available on the cut, it might be because there are more marinas. I'm convinced the majority of boats these days spend most of their lives in a marina.

[Mike Todd]

Greenie, that's really well put.

The only problem being, that minority is growing. I'm a continuous cruiser with a widebeam, so my cruising in the south is limited to the thames, KandA, grand union London to Birmingham. The problem areas if you like.

The numbers are growing, and the enforcement teams are not dealing with it in my opinion as they should be.

Not helped by the fcat that on a number of those canals, much of the length is maintained on the basis that it is used by narrowboats (not wide beams). Plenty of places on K&A, for example, where there would be considerable difficulties iof two wide boats arrived in opposite directions simultaneously. (In some cases, a wide and a narrow together would not fit!)

But are they? My experience since Christmas coming through London and up the grand union is of a lot less boats actually. Many places that were historically impossible to moor in are now free and not only that, people actually seem to be moving every 14 days. London was definitely quieter from Little Venice out west than the last two or three years. And as I say, there has been steady movement where previously there was very little. I think CRT have had a bit of a word and it's working. Well done to them as maybe it's not all as bad as some like to suggest?

There does seem to be growing evidence that the in formal approach has had an effect.

 

However, in the longer term, that will only continue to be effective if boaters, prone to ignoring the 'rules', know that it will ultyimately be followed up by formal enforcement. Otherwise, the bluff will be called and we will revert back to the previous often anarchic situation.

[Captain Zim]

There does seem to be growing evidence that the in formal approach has had an effect.

 

However, in the longer term, that will only continue to be effective if boaters, prone to ignoring the 'rules', know that it will ultyimately be followed up by formal enforcement. Otherwise, the bluff will be called and we will revert back to the previous often anarchic situation.

Completely agree. But also I think it is nice to recognise that the informal approach has had an effect. A lot of people have always said that this dialogue driven approach where boaters and CRT employees out on the cut stay in touch is the best way.

[mayalld]

As I said, I can't really comment on London but theoretically movement doesn't really make any difference as everyone has to find a mooring at the end of a cruise. The problem will obviously be worse at peak times of the year when everyone piles out of the marinas and expects to find a prime mooring.

 

If it appears there are more moorings available on the cut, it might be because there are more marinas. I'm convinced the majority of boats these days spend most of their lives in a marina.

 

You rather miss the point.

 

It isn't suggested that making people move about will miraculously create space where there was none.

 

What is suggested is that unless you can meet the requirements of moving around all the time, you are expected to return to a home mooring when not moving around.

 

Making people who aren't actually going to move around all the time remove themselves from public mooring space when not moving WILL create space.

[Tuscan]

You rather miss the point.

 

It isn't suggested that making people move about will miraculously create space where there was none.

 

What is suggested is that unless you can meet the requirements of moving around all the time, you are expected to return to a home mooring when not moving around.

 

Making people who aren't actually going to move around all the time remove themselves from public mooring space when not moving WILL create space.

But if you have a recognised home mooring in your name where you have been seen moored and while away from it move every 14 days or less what's the problem? There is no requirement to have a continous journey so if you spend 1 night there every 90 days or 89 are you saying a boater is not compliant. If that's the case anyone with a home mooring who goes out of the marina to the same spot most weekend or a long summer cruise is in trouble. General question as it don't know the specific facts here.

[bassplayer]

 

You rather miss the point.

 

Try starting a post with something nice. You have made a valid point, as have the rest of us.

[Ssscrudddy]

 

Didn't CRT do that .... and were promptly challenged in to court (or have I misremembered that rather long runing saga?)

I believe they did, & I believe it was challenged because their guidance didnt fit with what the law said they could & couldnt do (Nigels created person)

 

 

You rather miss the point.

 

It isn't suggested that making people move about will miraculously create space where there was none.

 

What is suggested is that unless you can meet the requirements of moving around all the time, you are expected to return to a home mooring when not moving around.

 

Making people who aren't actually going to move around all the time remove themselves from public mooring space when not moving WILL create space.

Once again, the problem, because you are not expected to return to your home mooring, CaRT cant just make it up, they have to stay within the law. Just dont overstay anywhere.

[bassplayer]

What would happen if you had a genuine home mooring but told CRT you were a CC'er? I presume they wouldn't bother you at all provided you don't overstay...As a genuine CC'er I suppose it's not in my interest if people don't go back to their marinas, but the whole idea of penalising people who have a genuine mooring seems silly...we all pay our licence fee...don't we?

[Alan de Enfield]

But if you have a recognised home mooring in your name where you have been seen moored and while away from it move every 14 days or less what's the problem? There is no requirement to have a continous journey ...........

 

The facts provided are exactly as you propose, and C&RtT seem to agree with this - however to be clased as a boater with a home mooring C&RT have to be "satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere"

 

It is then that the fun starts :

C&RT say we are not "satisfied you have a mooring ", so you say "I am satisfied that I have a mooring", C&RT say "we are not satisfied" and so on.

Once C&RT say they are not satisfied (and there appears to be no avenue of appeal) you then become a boater WITHOUT a home mooring, and if you fail to adhere to the Boater without a Home Mooring rules ( ie move parish / place every 14 days) then they revoke your licence, then section 8 your boat for not having a licence.

 

Judge, Jury and Executioner.

[mayalld]

What would happen if you had a genuine home mooring but told CRT you were a CC'er? I presume they wouldn't bother you at all provided you don't overstay...As a genuine CC'er I suppose it's not in my interest if people don't go back to their marinas, but the whole idea of penalising people who have a genuine mooring seems silly...we all pay our licence fee...don't we?

 

If you declare yourself a CCer and CC, they will be happy, whether you actually have a mooring or not.

 

If you declare yourself to have a mooring and actually CC, they will also be happy.

 

No matter what you declare, if you actually CM in a limited area, they will be after you.

[bassplayer]

 

If you declare yourself a CCer and CC, they will be happy, whether you actually have a mooring or not.

 

If you declare yourself to have a mooring and actually CC, they will also be happy.

 

No matter what you declare, if you actually CM in a limited area, they will be after you.

So to summarise..don't take the piss....

[Alan de Enfield]

 

If you declare yourself a CCer and CC, they will be happy, whether you actually have a mooring or not.

 

If you declare yourself to have a mooring and actually CC, they will also be happy.

 

No matter what you declare, if you actually CM in a limited area, they will be after you.

 

What if you declare a home mooring and do not CC ?

[bassplayer]

 

What if you declare a home mooring and do not CC ?

You'd probably get taken straight to jail...