Tractor seats vs. swan-neck

[PeterDHS]

I have two Massey Ferguson tractor seats which I want to mount on the bum rail of my cruier stern NB.

Problem is this would clash with the sweep of the tiller which is only 2 inches higher than the rail and limit the turn to about 45 degrees each way. I have looked at ways of hingeing the seats to drop backwards or simply lift off but they are all a bit clunky inelegant solutions. The elegant solution would be if the swan-neck was simply 3 inches higher !

Is this a cut and weld jobbie ? Would it need a steel bar insert ? Expensive ? Anybody modified or swapped their swannies ?

Thanks

Peter

ps I have looked at the tiller-hinge options and they will still hit the seats.

[Lockie Junior]

Isn't 45 degrees about the maximum effective rudder angle anyway? I think any further than that and the rudder starts to create drag and act as a brake more than it does a rudder. There was a big thread recently about the maximum efficient rudder angle but, alas, I can't remember what it was called.

 

Regards,

Lockie.

[David Mack]

I have two Massey Ferguson tractor seats which I want to mount on the bum rail of my cruier stern NB.

Problem is this would clash with the sweep of the tiller which is only 2 inches higher than the rail and limit the turn to about 45 degrees each way. I have looked at ways of hingeing the seats to drop backwards or simply lift off but they are all a bit clunky inelegant solutions. The elegant solution would be if the swan-neck was simply 3 inches higher !

Is this a cut and weld jobbie ? Would it need a steel bar insert ? Expensive ? Anybody modified or swapped their swannies ?

Thanks

Peter

ps I have looked at the tiller-hinge options and they will still hit the seats.

And if you catch the rudder on something when going astern you will very likely get dropped over the backend too!

[Robbo]

And if you catch the rudder on something when going astern you will very likely get dropped over the backend too!

 

Wonder if this is what happened to this woman? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203456/Children-mother-fall-death-steers-canal-boat.html

[Athy]

Mr. Mack just beat me to it: do not put seats (or yourself) within the arc of the tiller. It is potentially dangerous. You could safely use the tractor seats once you were moored up, but why would you want to?

[Machpoint005]

We have a simple seat to the cruiser stern which is little more than a plank across the rails near the arsend. The tiller clears this by about 125mm. Might this be a better solution?

 

If I am doing any real manoeuvring I stand up anyway.

[pquinn]

Have a look at this Peter,it may be of help.

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65648&hl=

[Athy]

Wonder if this is what happened to this woman? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203456/Children-mother-fall-death-steers-canal-boat.html

Yes, local opinion at the time of this tragic event was that she was standing within the arc of the tiller, the rudder struck the cill causing it and the attached tiller to swing round violently, and she was deposited over the rails, striking her head on brick- or stonework.

[Pete & Helen]

Yes, local opinion at the time of this tragic event was that she was standing within the arc of the tiller, the rudder struck the cill causing it and the attached tiller to swing round violently, and she was deposited over the rails, striking her head on brick- or stonework.

 

Not quite, The inquest heard that the boat reversed into the lock gate and was propelled over the stern as she was moving back to the controls. although there is always the chance that the tiller gave her a helping hand. Whatever the cause the result was tragic for this family who were enjoying a canal holiday to this point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8480943.stm

[Athy]

Not quite, The inquest heard that the boat reversed into the lock gate and was propelled over the stern as she was moving back to the controls. although there is always the chance that the tiller gave her a helping hand. Whatever the cause the result was tragic for this family who were enjoying a canal holiday to this point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8480943.stm

I didn't mention the inquest. I mentioned local opinion, which I heard because we moored very close to where the awful incident happened.

[PeterDHS]

Big thanks for all the advice to-date, although none deal with the crucial bit of how one might 'raise' the height of the tiller, anything on this would be great.

 

1) I appreciate what people say about the dangers of being in the sweep of the tiller should it hit or catch on anything. Realistically this would mean that at least two-thirds of the stern would be out of bounds. Also whether seated or standing would make little difference with only a couple of inches between tiller and bum rail- it will still act like a blunt scissors. Also how would this advice apply to a trad stern where the sweep covers all the available stern and there is no rail for safety ?

2) Interesting that some say there is little benefit in exceeding 45 degrees port/starboard. I am sure I was vaguely aware of this in theory if not practise. Last week I had to wind in a small widening in front of a red-lighted floodlock. I don't know if I would have succeeded without steering at 85 degrees.

3) Machpoint (thankyou)- your idea of a plank may be worth investigating....not because it helps with the height issue but because it would move the seat forward possibly far enough for a hinged tiller to work !

 

Keep it coming people, it is all appreciated

Peter

[John Holden]

Not "no rail for safety" but no rail to impede free movement.

 

I've never done it, honest I haven't, but with no rail if you find yourself in a silly position it's easy to step round the back of the tiller if there is no rail in the way.

[Beaker]

Not "no rail for safety" but no rail to impede free movement.

 

I've never done it, honest I haven't, but with no rail if you find yourself in a silly position it's easy to step round the back of the tiller if there is no rail in the way.

 

It's also easy to step off the stern, too!

[Athy]

Also how would this advice apply to a trad stern where the sweep covers all the available stern and there is no rail for safety ?

Easy. Most people who have a trad, as we do, stand on the threshold of the hatchway (apologies if my terminology is suspect) and are thus in front of the tiller when they're steering. If you see someone standing on their trad deck beside the tiller when steering, they're an accident waiting to happen - and yes, in our early boating days we did exactly that, fortunately without incident.

[Guest]

Keep it coming people, it is all appreciated

 

Personally I think the risk of sitting on seat within the arc of the tiller can be over played. Yes there are given situations where it would be regarded as foolish (examples being in a lock or when carrying out low speed manoeuvres). There are however many sections up here and elsewhere where it can be perfectly safe to so. We have Taff seats which we use when safe to do so but jump off from when it's not. It has been suggested on here previously that it is never safe to so, but I remain unconvinced based on the lack of credible evidence.

 

As to the choice of seats well tractor seats wouldn't be mine but that is just an issue of personal opinion about the aesthetics.

 

As for raising the tiller I would have thought the only route would be to replace with a different/longer type or have a section properly welded in.

[Athy]

Martin, I am perhaps conditioned by extensive travel on curly-wurly canals like the Ashby and the S. Oxford. Certainly on a straight waterway (like miles and miles of the ones around here) there would be no obvious danger, agreed.

[Ray T]

With regard to raising the tiller height a "reverse" one of these:

 

 

With thanks to the owner of the photo and idea.

[Guest]

Martin, I am perhaps conditioned by extensive travel on curly-wurly canals like the Ashby and the S. Oxford. Certainly on a straight waterway (like miles and miles of the ones around here) there would be no obvious danger, agreed.

That is my point Mike. It's about doing a (I hesitate to say it) risk assessment.

 

I wouldn't on many parts of the system including the parts you mention though.

 

This is not aimed at you to be clear but so often on here sweeping comments are made without people thinking, 'actually this may apply to where I do my boating but does it really apply universally?

 

Often the answer will be no it doesn't.

 

Ed I should add that often on 'twisty bits' it's impossible to remain seated in the tiller arc anyway.

Edited June 11, 2014 by The Dog House

[Athy]

Fairy nuff - I appreciate your choice of adjective, "sweeping" statements indeed!

[NickF]

I have two Massey Ferguson tractor seats which I want to mount on the bum rail of my cruier stern NB.

Problem is this would clash with the sweep of the tiller which is only 2 inches higher than the rail and limit the turn to about 45 degrees each way. I have looked at ways of hingeing the seats to drop backwards or simply lift off but they are all a bit clunky inelegant solutions. The elegant solution would be if the swan-neck was simply 3 inches higher !

Is this a cut and weld jobbie ? Would it need a steel bar insert ? Expensive ? Anybody modified or swapped their swannies ?

Thanks

Peter

ps I have looked at the tiller-hinge options and they will still hit the seats.

Hinging the seats to drop backwards as you suggest would mean that when the tiller arm swung across in the dangerous situation described above you would be neatly tipped backwards into the cut! (I know that's not quite what you meant but it created an amusing picture in my mind's eye!)

[ditchcrawler]

That is my point Mike. It's about doing a (I hesitate to say it) risk assessment.

 

I wouldn't on many parts of the system including the parts you mention though.

 

This is not aimed at you to be clear but so often on here sweeping comments are made without people thinking, 'actually this may apply to where I do my boating but does it really apply universally?

 

Often the answer will be no it doesn't.

 

Ed I should add that often on 'twisty bits' it's impossible to remain seated in the tiller arc anyway.

I think the last death was on a dead straight piece, in a lock.

[RLWP]

Ed I should add that often on 'twisty bits' it's impossible to remain seated in the tiller arc anyway.

This raises a couple of other things

 

First, yes, on twisty bits I'll swap from one side of the tiller to the other so I can see further around the bends

 

And, I usually steer with my legs, not my arms. I hold the tiller and shift my weight from one foot to the other

 

Only on really simple bits might I sit

 

Richard

[Guest]

I think the last death was on a dead straight piece, in a lock.

Not understanding your point DC.

[PeterDHS]

Ray T- Thanks for the photo.....I have never seen a gizmo like that, and I am sure a 'reverse design' would be simpler and cheaper than hacking into the swan-neck tobe.

 

Cheers Peter.

[Daiboy]

This raises a couple of other things

 

First, yes, on twisty bits I'll swap from one side of the tiller to the other so I can see further around the bends

 

And, I usually steer with my legs, not my arms. I hold the tiller and shift my weight from one foot to the other

 

Only on really simple bits might I sit

 

Richard

 

Couldn't agree more RLWP. On nice straight bits I stand in front of the tiller with the end of the arm between my legs (I actually sort of sit on it) and steer with slight movement of my body weight and leg movements. I also have a high stool which I sit on for the very clear straight bits, BUT when coming to bends, locks and other slightly precarious situations, I stand in front of the tiller with my hands behind me and in easy reach of the throttle and gear units.