Getting the most out of my alternator

[atsoft22]

Just as a bit of further information the following is manufacturers data for the uprated A127 unit

 

RPM Current (A)

1600 34

1800 43

2000 50

2500 62

3000 68

4000 74

5000 77

6000 79

 

so to get the best out of alternator I need to run it at 3000rpm+ with a safe maximum of 12000rpm

 

at 1000rpm I only have 1600rpm at alternator so giving 34 Amps as found experimentally.

This is manufacturers data showing 3000 as being a long way up the output graph It should give me double what I am currently getting if the data is correct.

Edited May 7, 2014 by atsoft22

[OldGoat]

Beta will / could sell you a Poly-V pulley arrangement that fits onto the front of the engine using the inbuilt spline shaft.

BUT I don't know if that applies to the BV1305 unit.

It's not cheap and you'd have to tinker with the alternator mounting - but could be done with a bit of light engineering. The advantage of Poly-V belts is that you can have s smaller alternator pulley than with a standard V-belt.

 

If available it's not cheap - if that was an issue - If that doesn't put you off then it might be worth getting a higher output alternator as well.

 

 

[Ex- Member]

This is manufacturers data showing 3000 as being a long way up the output graph It should give me double what I am currently getting if the data is correct.

 

That's pretty good and doubling the output will make a big difference to your bulk charging. Result!

[ditchcrawler]

This is manufacturers data showing 3000 as being a long way up the output graph It should give me double what I am currently getting if the data is correct.

It will be interesting to see if it does what you want, its bound to be an improvement and shouldn't cost a fortune to install

[Bobbybass]

Have you got a Travelpower...?

 

If not...there is a large double aluminium pulley available that fits onto the water pump pulley.

That one is about 9 inches in diameter on the outer..and the inner is about 8 inches..('ish')..and is designed for a ridged belt.

 

I fitted that myself, but you have to be prepared to 'cobble' it to fit...and cobble the alternator alignment..which may mean making a new bracket.

I got this pulley from Beta...but had to 'write' a declaration' that it was totally my decision to buy it and it was non-returnable....as..(in theory) it didn't fit my Beta 43 engine...

[OldGoat]

Have you got a Travelpower...?

 

If not...there is a large double aluminium pulley available that fits onto the water pump pulley.

That one is about 9 inches in diameter on the outer..and the inner is about 8 inches..('ish')..and is designed for a ridged belt.

 

I fitted that myself, but you have to be prepared to 'cobble' it to fit...and cobble the alternator alignment..which may mean making a new bracket.

I got this pulley from Beta...but had to 'write' a declaration' that it was totally my decision to buy it and it was non-returnable....as..(in theory) it didn't fit my Beta 43 engine...

 

 

(Wot I said above). It's the crankshaft pulley (which in turn drives the water pump and alternator)

Yes, the double pulley is for a Travel Power, the larger diameter pulley bolts onto the crankshaft pulley. You don't have to buy both.

The latest version gets its drive from the spline on the crankshaft.

I know not whether either are suitable for the smaller engine as I've lost my old catalogues.

[OldGoat]

Scouring t'internet to remind me what a BV1305 was comes up a lovely illustrated parts list:-

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.betamarine.co.uk%2Fdownloads%2Fspare_parts_guidelines%2FB35_to_B38_Spares_List.pdf&ei=0XJqU8S6NoGYO86ggIAC&usg=AFQjCNEPhR-ZojVfC6VBTZVaFzncx7GbYw

 

If you look at page 5 you'll see the seawater pump ('cos you've got the heat exchanger cooled version) would get in the way of the larger "ISKRA" aluminium pulley. So that's why Beta said they couldn't offer you a solution (I always like to know why). A pity as I'm a fan of fresh water cooled heat exchanger engines.

 

I suspect you probably wanted to solve the problem at minimal cost, so doing a special would probably put any suggestion out of court.

Would a larger pulley - you've said you've ordered one - not get in the way of the seawater pump?

Methinks the project could do with some more research, as I've (you'd be glad to hear) run out of sensible ideas.

 

 

[Bobbybass]

Scouring t'internet to remind me what a BV1305 was comes up a lovely illustrated parts list:-

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.betamarine.co.uk%2Fdownloads%2Fspare_parts_guidelines%2FB35_to_B38_Spares_List.pdf&ei=0XJqU8S6NoGYO86ggIAC&usg=AFQjCNEPhR-ZojVfC6VBTZVaFzncx7GbYw

 

If you look at page 5 you'll see the seawater pump ('cos you've got the heat exchanger cooled version) would get in the way of the larger "ISKRA" aluminium pulley. So that's why Beta said they couldn't offer you a solution (I always like to know why). A pity as I'm a fan of fresh water cooled heat exchanger engines.

 

I suspect you probably wanted to solve the problem at minimal cost, so doing a special would probably put any suggestion out of court.

Would a larger pulley - you've said you've ordered one - not get in the way of the seawater pump?

Methinks the project could do with some more research, as I've (you'd be glad to hear) run out of sensible ideas.

 

 

 

Hey...we're boaters aren't we...?

 

Never say die...

 

Everything can be cobbled...

On my ally pulley...I cut the end off the engine cradle..and made a special large welded bracket to swing the Travelpower / alternator in a completely different position..

It worked great..

 

Get your inventing hat on !!

[atsoft22]

Scouring t'internet to remind me what a BV1305 was comes up a lovely illustrated parts list:-

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.betamarine.co.uk%2Fdownloads%2Fspare_parts_guidelines%2FB35_to_B38_Spares_List.pdf&ei=0XJqU8S6NoGYO86ggIAC&usg=AFQjCNEPhR-ZojVfC6VBTZVaFzncx7GbYw

 

If you look at page 5 you'll see the seawater pump ('cos you've got the heat exchanger cooled version) would get in the way of the larger "ISKRA" aluminium pulley. So that's why Beta said they couldn't offer you a solution (I always like to know why). A pity as I'm a fan of fresh water cooled heat exchanger engines.

 

I suspect you probably wanted to solve the problem at minimal cost, so doing a special would probably put any suggestion out of court.

Would a larger pulley - you've said you've ordered one - not get in the way of the seawater pump?

Methinks the project could do with some more research, as I've (you'd be glad to hear) run out of sensible ideas.

The Seawater pump has been removed and blanked off. The Narrowboat Skin tank has been put into the freshwater circuit, so its kinda like it would be in inland waterway applications. I'll try and take some pictures if you are interested? I fabricated a 'T' so that I could connect the calorifier in correctly. The previous owner had put it in the bypass circuit, stopping the engine from warming up quickly. I put in the correct top of cylinder head fitting for the flow and the 'T' for the return.

 

The pulley with the taper fitting is only about £10, so if it doesn't work its not a major disaster. I've got to try something

 

The thing that might get in the way is the hose coming off the bottom of the pump and I was looking to use some rigid pipe to redirect this enough to allow me to fit the bigger pulley. I changed the Iskra Alternator for a A127 style Alternator with a smaller pulley. I should also say that this engine has 10mm V pulleys, not the serpentine type shown on the diagrams you sent.

 

I'm soooo impressed with the effort you guys are putting into helping me here. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

I was kinda hoping that someone out there had already solved this, but I guess the 'unusual' use of a Sea going engine has complicated things...

[Tony Brooks]

Just beware. The timing cover oil seal often runs on a backward extension of the crankshaft pulley. Does the Taperlok one have this and if so is it the correct OD?

 

Best take the existing pulley of to check.

[OldGoat]

The Seawater pump has been removed and blanked off. The Narrowboat Skin tank has been put into the freshwater circuit, so its kinda like it would be in inland waterway applications. I'll try and take some pictures if you are interested? I fabricated a 'T' so that I could connect the calorifier in correctly. The previous owner had put it in the bypass circuit, stopping the engine from warming up quickly. I put in the correct top of cylinder head fitting for the flow and the 'T' for the return.

 

The pulley with the taper fitting is only about £10, so if it doesn't work its not a major disaster. I've got to try something

 

The thing that might get in the way is the hose coming off the bottom of the pump and I was looking to use some rigid pipe to redirect this enough to allow me to fit the bigger pulley. I changed the Iskra Alternator for a A127 style Alternator with a smaller pulley. I should also say that this engine has 10mm V pulleys, not the serpentine type shown on the diagrams you sent.

 

I'm soooo impressed with the effort you guys are putting into helping me here. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

I was kinda hoping that someone out there had already solved this, but I guess the 'unusual' use of a Sea going engine has complicated things...

 

 

It's always difficult to know whether to reply to a post or how to pitch it. So often folks want a solution for no / little cost. As I'm a fan of Beta stuff because it can be made to do so many things, and I've known Beta sine (almost) when they started, I thought I'd have a go.

Mine's a freshwater cooled unit - now not so much seen on the canals, but work well if you've got a large mud box.

I assume your conversion blanks off the water injection port to the exhaust? Otherwise the heat exchanger is much the same between the two methods of cooling. I'm thinking that in removing the seawater pump and converting the exhaust to a hot one, your installation equates to a normal canal unit anyway.

 

I'm concerned about a couple of things -

My water pump doesn't feel like a free impellor (as in a domestic circulating pump); there's some resistance there, so it may be a rubber vane type as in Jabsco pumps - so running it much faster might not be a good idea.

I've just looked at a spare crankshaft pulley that I have and part of the rear face is shiny - so it's running against some seal.

OK my engine was a 1903 - but I bet the design criteria were similar.

 

If you're handy with a bit of metalwork, wouldn't it be better in the long term to refit the Iskra alternator just to charge the starter battery and make up some bracketry to run the A127 at it's optimum speed or even a more powerful variety using the TravelPower pulley system? Sometimes Prestolite alternators with lorra' power come up on ebay - and they're designed to pump out the amps for a longer period than the car types.

 

Do post pics: 'cos they're always interesting to a wide readership.

[atsoft22]

2 Alternators would be my preferred solution, tbh. Will look carefully at other Beta installations and see how it's done. Previous poster was right in that the engine pulley also provides 'bearing' for engine seal, so replacing is not really an option unless I can find shouldered pulley.

 

Yes I probably could design brackets and I am happy to buy what is necessary, the main issue being that I need a double crank pulley of some sort. You are referring to travel power pulley system. Do you have an illustration of that of any kind ?

[bottle]

I know this is not your engine but this shows, Beta 43 with travel power, bottom left picture.

 

http://www.betamarine.co.uk/inland/il_alternator_options.html

[atsoft22]

I know this is not your engine but this shows, Beta 43 with travel power, bottom left picture.

 

http://www.betamarine.co.uk/inland/il_alternator_options.html

Be nice if I could do bottom right....

[adrianh]

I have a V1205 (same block as yours- ex mini digger -self conversion for my own boat) engine that I have modified to add a second alternator. I purchased an complete alternator and drive pulley from a car breakers. This came from a almost new Nissan Micra. The drive is a polyvee belt ( you will struggle to transmit the power you will need using a light wt m10 plain vee belt), this pulley was mounted on the front of the existing vee pulley that drives the starter alternator/ water pump..

The 2nd alternator is used to charge 6 100 amp domestic batteries as a total seperate circuit. These are topped up by a solar panel that is large enough to keep the fridge running when away from the boat.

I can send pictures if you contact me.

[Eeyore]

Be nice if I could do bottom right....

Top left shows an engine fitted with a 6PK belt drive as per page 42 of the illustrated parts list (posted by OldGoat).

The crank pulley bolts over the original.

Disregard any references to the Beta controller; the 100 amp alternator is available with a standard internal regulator.

This is probably the most straight forward option; albeit more expensive due to the use of genuine parts.

Steve (Eeyore)

[atsoft22]

Top left shows an engine fitted with a 6PK belt drive as per page 42 of the illustrated parts list (posted by OldGoat).

The crank pulley bolts over the original.

Disregard any references to the Beta controller; the 100 amp alternator is available with a standard internal regulator.

This is probably the most straight forward option; albeit more expensive due to the use of genuine parts.

Steve (Eeyore)

To be clear, you are suggesting I get a single 100A alternator +Water pump pulley + Crankshaft pulley from Beta ? If that's a straightforward solution, then I'm surprised Beta themselves didn't offer it ? I'll call them on Monday and see how much it all is.

[OldGoat]

To be clear, you are suggesting I get a single 100A alternator +Water pump pulley + Crankshaft pulley from Beta ? If that's a straightforward solution, then I'm surprised Beta themselves didn't offer it ? I'll call them on Monday and see how much it all is.

 

 

Jumping in here - can't keep away... (BTW did you get my email sent to your profile)

It may be that Beta are wary of fitting solutions to the new(er) range of engines because there are detail changes that don't always show on Kubota's own drawings. It's caused some hassle in the past.

The add on pulleys (if you look at the photos that I sent you and / or the current catalogue) move everything forward, so I assume the water pump and alternator either have extension pulleys or are physically moved forward.

 

If that solution works out v. expensive, then enquire at the same time if a separate alternator might be more cost effective. I prefer an 'engine alternator' and a 'domestic charging' alternator.

[Eeyore]

To be clear, you are suggesting I get a single 100A alternator +Water pump pulley + Crankshaft pulley from Beta ? If that's a straightforward solution, then I'm surprised Beta themselves didn't offer it ? I'll call them on Monday and see how much it all is.

I'm suggesting that it's worth asking as your original enquiry was about a second alternator, did you provide them with the engines "K" number from the Beta label? The alternator can probably be sourced at a lower price, but the rest will be at Beta prices.

Many boats run with one alternator without issue (where a second alternator is impractible), and this option does not require any more room at the front of the engine.

Here are a few late night ramblings on the subject of a second alternator for your engine:

You will notice from the earlier links that Red Sea going Beta engines come with individual engine mounting legs, whilst green canal going Beta engines have a mounting beam arrangement.

Barrus Shire engines also use this mounting beam arrangement, but interestingly mount their second alternator on the beam. This might be an option for you, there are plenty of useful images online in the Barrus Shire catalouge.

 

Steve (Eeyore)

Edited May 11, 2014 by Eeyore

[atsoft22]

I'm suggesting that it's worth asking as your original enquiry was about a second alternator, did you provide them with the engines "K" number from the Beta label? The alternator can probably be sourced at a lower price, but the rest will be at Beta prices.

Many boats run with one alternator without issue (where a second alternator is impractible), and this option does not require any more room at the front of the engine.

Here are a few late night ramblings on the subject of a second alternator for your engine:

You will notice from the earlier links that Red Sea going Beta engines come with individual engine mounting legs, whilst green canal going Beta engines have a mounting beam arrangement.

Barrus Shire engines also use this mounting beam arrangement, but interestingly mount their second alternator on the beam. This might be an option for you, there are plenty of useful images online in the Barrus Shire catalouge.

 

Steve (Eeyore)

Thanks Steve, I really appreciate all this advise. I Currently run a single Alternator without issue, as you know from this thread, and uprating what I have, as per your suggestion, may be a good option. The down side to that is I have a Stirling Alternator to battery thingy which is only rated to 80A and also does the split charge, so I need to factor that into the equation too

[atsoft22]

Jumping in here - can't keep away... (BTW did you get my email sent to your profile)

It may be that Beta are wary of fitting solutions to the new(er) range of engines because there are detail changes that don't always show on Kubota's own drawings. It's caused some hassle in the past.

The add on pulleys (if you look at the photos that I sent you and / or the current catalogue) move everything forward, so I assume the water pump and alternator either have extension pulleys or are physically moved forward.

 

If that solution works out v. expensive, then enquire at the same time if a separate alternator might be more cost effective. I prefer an 'engine alternator' and a 'domestic charging' alternator.

Yes I got the stuff. Ty V much.

 

I'm with you on the 2 alternators solution. It makes more logical sense to me. Will spend some time with Beta on Monday and see what can be offered. Got no sense out of them last time, but I have some clearer questions to ask now, so will give it a go.

[OldGoat]

Yes I got the stuff. Ty V much.

 

I'm with you on the 2 alternators solution. It makes more logical sense to me. Will spend some time with Beta on Monday and see what can be offered. Got no sense out of them last time, but I have some clearer questions to ask now, so will give it a go.

 

Good -'twas worth the effort in preparing it then!

 

If you look at the photos of the green engine (drat, I didn't have a view of the stbd side of the engine), you'll see that the alternator mounts are attached to the rails. Overkill perhaps for you as both mine were large 5Kw units with large frame, J180 (?) mountings.

[Eeyore]

Thanks Steve, I really appreciate all this advise. I Currently run a single Alternator without issue, as you know from this thread, and uprating what I have, as per your suggestion, may be a good option. The down side to that is I have a Stirling Alternator to battery thingy which is only rated to 80A and also does the split charge, so I need to factor that into the equation too

Ok, so based on the KISS principle how does the following sound (it's just a suggestion )

Fit the Beta crank and water pump pulleys; then purchase a 48 mm 6PK pulley for your existing alternator (I would suggest one with a flat back to allow you to use spacers for alignment. Have a look at the Holger Christiansen "cargo" catalogue online for pulleys.)

This gives a pulley ratio of 2.7 to 1, and an alternator speed of 3240rpm at a respectable 1200rpm on the engine.

Worth a look? Obviously a twin alternator set up would be better, but if that's not possible/viable then this might optimise what you have in a cost effective manner.

The boys at Beta (usually John or Adrian I think) can advise further when you call them.

Steve (Eeyore)

[atsoft22]

That'll give me the RPM I need. Excellent. I guess the 48mm Pulley will be able to transmit the power ?

 

John and Adrian are the Techies at Beta ?

 

I'll let you know the outcome tomorrow. Thanks again.

[Eeyore]

That'll give me the RPM I need. Excellent. I guess the 48mm Pulley will be able to transmit the power ?

 

John and Adrian are the Techies at Beta ?

 

I'll let you know the outcome tomorrow. Thanks again.

Should be fine, the 70 amp A127 is used on Lister Canalstar engines with a 4PK belt, so 50% extra on the width (albeit with slightly less arc of contact) will be more than enough.

Steve (Eeyore)

Edited May 12, 2014 by Eeyore