Supercapacitors as replacement for starter battery

[MtB]

What's wrong with using a battery like everyone else?

 

The enormous upside of using trailing edge technology is that everyone understands it, including the bloke behind the counter in the boatyard when something has gone wrong and you need to buy parts to fix it on a wet sunday afternoon.

 

 

MtB

[Loafer]

'Trailing edge tech'. Love it, mind if I use it?

[MtB]

'Trailing edge tech'. Love it, mind if I use it?

 

Be my guest!

 

You can credit me when you use it, if you like :D

 

 

MtB

[Quinafloat]

What's wrong with using a battery like everyone else?

 

The enormous upside of using trailing edge technology is that everyone understands it, including the bloke behind the counter in the boatyard when something has gone wrong and you need to buy parts to fix it on a wet sunday afternoon.

 

 

MtB

 

There is obviously nothing wrong with using a battery, that is what I do now. However I like my LED lights, my mobile phones, my laptop with mobile broadband and even if I can't get them fixed on a wet sunday at the local chandlery. I think they improve my boating life. There are many aspects of boating that could, if people so wished, be brought up to date and I see nothing wrong with doing so. I think that tech should be appropriate to the problem you are addressing and the budget to solve that problem. Replacing a consumable with a permanent item would seem to be an improvement.

[Bobbybass]

I built an Ozone generator like that when I was a lot younger

 

Did you buy the 'kit' from J.N.Bull electrical in Hove..??....in which case....that was my company..

 

I had an Irish friend...who wanted to be an Ozone layer...

[mayalld]

 

No, I am not, I am seeking people who have tried such a system, or who have current knowledge of such a system. I am sure there are some pitfalls and am willing and eager to hear them. However people are doing just this in cars and people are selling such products, so it's not impossible. I am ignoring advice that I will instantly die. Giving existing examples to discount some peoples fears, and ignoring those who did not understand the question, If people think it is a bad idea then that is an opinion. If they give facts pertinent to the question then I will be listening intently. Examples might be that I have the wrong size supercapacitors in mind which would be open to mathematical reasoning. Alternatively that the cable sizing would be a problem or that the starter would weld due to the power being delivered too quickly. There are many reasons that would stop me in my tracks. However if the arguments are on the basis of a) I don't do it so it's wrong it's not how it's done c) I think it's dangerous. Then I think that refutation is in order. Otherwise there will be no progress (which I am sure will suit many).

 

The maxim "if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it" applies here.

 

Yes, there are applications. Applications constructed by big companies with big R&D department, staffed by experts who can design appropriate safety systems.

 

You are none of these things, and are looking to homebuild a system without all that expert knowledge.

 

On one level, we could consider that all you are doing is entering the race for a Darwin Award. On the other, what you propose to do has the potential to cause serious harm to other people.

[pophops]

So you return to your boat after a few days away. Your cutting edge technology has lost the ability to turn over your engine. Your leisure batteries are flat because you forgot to turn off the fridge, and you're going nowhere. Just like this thread.

[MtB]

 

The maxim "if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it" applies here.

 

 

On the other hand how does one educate oneself, if not by asking?

 

 

MtB

[mayalld]

 

 

On the other hand how does one educate oneself, if not by asking?

 

 

MtB

 

By studying with actual experts.

 

One is unlikely to educate oneself about bleeding edge dangerous technologies by asking on a boating forum.

[MtB]

 

By studying with actual experts.

 

One is unlikely to educate oneself about bleeding edge dangerous technologies by asking on a boating forum.

 

 

And by asking the bunch of incompetent fools on here, he has discovered the risk you seem to think he ought to have known about already, intuitively.

 

 

MtB

[dor]

I think Dave has a point. It does concern me when I see people post on here asking questions about how to connect up their 230V systems when they clearly haven't got the first idea about electrical installations. The same goes for gas. OK so Dave's response is a bit more blunt than other posters might think appropriate, but if this technology is potentially dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing, then sometimes bluntness is needed.

[MtB]

I think Dave has a point. It does concern me when I see people post on here asking questions about how to connect up their 230V systems when they clearly haven't got the first idea about electrical installations. The same goes for gas. OK so Dave's response is a bit more blunt than other posters might think appropriate, but if this technology is potentially dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing, then sometimes bluntness is needed.

 

 

Agreed, but translating that into 'if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it' is a step too far in my opinion. It comes across to me as know your place, don't try to find out about stuff you don't know about.

 

Obviously no-one should ever try to lean anything about gas installations either, for identical reasons...

 

 

MtB

[Bobbybass]

Obviously no-one should ever try to lean anything about gas installations either, for identical reasons...

 

 

MtB

 

 

I learned...not to angle grind next to my batteries.....

Would have been better to listen to forum members...

 

Next...I'm going to learn about gas...where are my matches...?

[Chalky]

 

The maxim "if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it" applies here.

 

Yes, there are applications. Applications constructed by big companies with big R&D department, staffed by experts who can design appropriate safety systems.

 

You are none of these things, and are looking to homebuild a system without all that expert knowledge.

 

On one level, we could consider that all you are doing is entering the race for a Darwin Award. On the other, what you propose to do has the potential to cause serious harm to other people.

 

That's exactly the issue. Working in the research dept of a company that has investigated these devices I'm more than aware of the issues involved. The safety cases are no worse than many other technologies. Taking any safety related technology from a concept to production is non trivial and as Dave points out that's the whole issue. Whilst you might know how it works and what to do, a boat yard, a mechanic or the next owner of your boat won't. Designing in the safety systems and then insuring their integrity is complex. Designing it to a level where it'd stand up in court if some one was injured is very complex and expensive.

It's the same argument as building your own galvanic isolator.

[MtB]

So you agree with Dave's maxim 'if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it' as a universal maxim in life?

 

 

MtB

[Chalky]

So you agree with Dave's maxim 'if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it' as a universal maxim in life?

 

 

MtB

 

No - asking and learning is called research. Doing something that's potentially dangerous and not thinking it through and ignoring advice is called something else.

 

I did think about installing a set of super caps to do the same thing (the set are sitting in a cupboard). I haven't done it because its potentially very dangerous if not done correctly.

[MtB]

But Dave said he shouldn't be asking in the first place. That's the bit I am having trouble with.

 

 

MtB

(Ignoring the advice received is a separate issue)

[Staarek]

 

No, I am not, I am seeking people who have tried such a system, or who have current knowledge of such a system. I am sure there are some pitfalls and am willing and eager to hear them. However people are doing just this in cars and people are selling such products, so it's not impossible. I am ignoring advice that I will instantly die. Giving existing examples to discount some peoples fears, and ignoring those who did not understand the question, If people think it is a bad idea then that is an opinion. If they give facts pertinent to the question then I will be listening intently. Examples might be that I have the wrong size supercapacitors in mind which would be open to mathematical reasoning. Alternatively that the cable sizing would be a problem or that the starter would weld due to the power being delivered too quickly. There are many reasons that would stop me in my tracks. However if the arguments are on the basis of a) I don't do it so it's wrong it's not how it's done c) I think it's dangerous. Then I think that refutation is in order. Otherwise there will be no progress (which I am sure will suit many).

 

Well said! If all the inventors would think like some of the forum members we would be still using horses for propelling our boats!

I've seen this clip some time ago, maybe you will find it useful:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

[Quinafloat]

 

Well said! If all the inventors would think like some of the forum members we would be still using horses for propelling our boats!

I've seen this clip some time ago, maybe you will find it useful:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

 

Naturally I have seen this, and many other clips on you tube. I have also searched out a lot of literature and theoretic work as well as articles written on the subject but thanks anyway. Perhaps others will view the clip and stop considering the instant death scenario if you even look at a photograph of a supercapacitor. However their are gaps in the story that anyone who has implemented such a system could assist me with to ensure a perfectly safe and usable implementation, if it really is implementable on a narrowboat.

 

I wonder why I should not ask advice on a boating forum about a novel starter battery for a boat?

 

Is it really dangerous? There is, after all, far more energy waiting to be dissipated in a gallon can of petrol.

 

I do not believe that a majority consensus of opinion, not based by any real knowledge of the situation, should be considered as serious guidance.

[PaulG]

I wonder why I should not ask advice on a boating forum about a novel starter battery for a boat?

 

Is it really dangerous? There is, after all, far more energy waiting to be dissipated in a gallon can of petrol.

 

I do not believe that a majority consensus of opinion, not based by any real knowledge of the situation, should be considered as serious guidance.

Personally I cannot see how asking for advice on a discussion forum can be "dangerous".

Your concept may or may not be dangerous.

Why not ask?

[Chalky]

 

Is it really dangerous? There is, after all, far more energy waiting to be dissipated in a gallon can of petrol.

 

 

It's only dangerous if you touch it when charged. The main issue is that it's novel (to a boat) and that it'll catch people who don't expect it. People are used to petrol and know how to work with it. It may not be safer however it's well understood. It's the damp environment of a boat and the low impedances that cause concern. Also how are you going to service it? Car companies work through all of the scenarios before applying the technology, you need to do the same.

 

If I was to implement it I'd use the caps to boost the starting power, not as my main energy store. I'd leave the caps in a discharged state and use a switching supply / big resistor to charge them up before I started the engine. Once the engine had started I'd then fully discharge the caps until needed again. That way you know that they're stored in a safe condition and that they'd only be dangerous during a starting cycle. Using them as the only form of starter and storing them fully charged is "problematic".

 

 

There is, after all, far more energy waiting to be dissipated in a gallon can of petrol.

 

 

Chocolate chip cookies actually have a higher energy density than petrol...

[Bobbybass]

I'm all for trying things out...after all that's how we have our technology today...

 

Some things though are very dangerous.

You connect your capacitor bank to 12 volts..it charges...

You can never be totally sure ..by how much.

It could reach the point where it will discharge across the starter switch/solenoid in a manner in which it was never designed....and give possibility of fire...

 

Sods law dictates..that oneday you will catch your hand on it...and possibly in damp air...it will be fatal...

 

I feel that of this was a 'working idea'...we would seen it on cars years ago...

 

Not putting you down...but weigh up all the odds...

[PaulG]

You connect your capacitor bank to 12 volts..it charges...

You can never be totally sure ..by how much.

The voltage on a capacitor is proportional to the state of charge. This is not true of lead/acid batteries.

 

If your capacitor bank is directly connected to a 12V supply, the voltage on the capacitor bank can't rise above 12V unless you have additional electronics to cause it to do so.

 

"Supercapacitors" are generally low voltage devices, (1.2 volts to 4 volts depending on type).

 

They should not be confused with electrolytic types that commonly have working voltages in the order of thousands of volts.

Edited March 26, 2014 by PaulG

[ditchcrawler]

I think Dave has a point. It does concern me when I see people post on here asking questions about how to connect up their 230V systems when they clearly haven't got the first idea about electrical installations. The same goes for gas. OK so Dave's response is a bit more blunt than other posters might think appropriate, but if this technology is potentially dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing, then sometimes bluntness is needed.

Lots of people play with lots of dangerous things without knowing, The OP is asking. The number of people I have seen playing with things above a battery bank or working on batteries with metal wrist watch bands on. They are all oblivious to the stored energy. Yes he is talking capacitors and yes they store loads of energy but not at Kvolts as some suggest.

[carlt]

You connect your capacitor bank to 12 volts..it charges...

You can never be totally sure ..by how much.

It could reach the point where it will discharge across the starter switch/solenoid in a manner in which it was never designed....and give possibility of fire...

So are you suggesting that the idea to use Supercapacitors to start a boat's atrocious?