Insulating doors

[blackrose]

I'm thinking about insulating my doors and hatches as they've just got inch thick MDF stuck on. It's veneered and I don't know how they've sealed the edges. Anyway, it's 9 years old and although it's lasted quite well it doesn't provide much insulation.

 

So I was wondering what's the best way to do it? The MDF is well bonded to the steel doors so should I just stick 20mm cellotex to the MDF and then put the lining material on top, or should I rip the MDF off the doors and start from bare steel? The first option would mean the doors would end up over 2" thick but that's not a problem in terms of opening and closing.

 

If I chose the second option, I very much doubt the MDF would come off the doors in one piece so that could mean a lot more work and get quite messy.

[jodansgang]

Id leave the MDF well alone and use it as a backing to affix any insulation/material to. You can always screw through and into the MDF if necessary to obtain a fixing for any frame work you may need to fit.

Also the MDF should act as a bit of a condensation barrier between the steel and any subsequent layers.

Edited December 7, 2013 by jodansgang

[blackrose]

Id leave the MDF well alone and use it as a backing to affix any insulation/material to. You can always screw through and into the MDF if necessary to obtain a fixing for any frame work you may need to fit.

Also the MDF should act as a bit of a condensation barrier between the steel and any subsequent layers.

 

Thanks, that's my preferred option.

[Ex- Member]

Our doors are fully lined in a pleated edge door with 18mm ply and have MDF on top of that creating a raised 3" border around the door. I see little gain in insulating a boat door though unless it's fully sealed also like a double glazed unit.

 

We find to conserve heat and save on energy that plugging all mushroom vents in the winter and not sealing the side and front door hatches which easily compensate for the lost venting in the roof, a much more common sense approach. I posted somewhere recently that the small gaps around doors & hatches doubled the square area of ventilation of that from mushroom vents.

 

We do though have a super dooper heavy duty insulated curtain across the cratch doors, it's amazing how well it holds back the cold but still lets air in for ventilation.

 

Mushroom vents are totally useless the majority of heat you produce will go straight through the roof, block them and get ventilation lower down.

 

Maybe that's why we manage to keep a 60f x 10/6 wide beam warm with just a 4kw Bubble stove mostly set on low.

[pquinn]

Our doors are fully lined in a pleated edge door with 18mm ply and have MDF on top of that creating a raised 3" border around the door. I see little gain in insulating a boat door though unless it's fully sealed also like a double glazed unit.

 

We find to conserve heat and save on energy that plugging all mushroom vents in the winter and not sealing the side and front door hatches which easily compensate for the lost venting in the roof, a much more common sense approach. I posted somewhere recently that the small gaps around doors & hatches doubled the square area of ventilation of that from mushroom vents.

 

We do though have a super dooper heavy duty insulated curtain across the cratch doors, it's amazing how well it holds back the cold but still lets air in for ventilation.

 

Mushroom vents are totally useless the majority of heat you produce will go straight through the roof, block them and get ventilation lower down.

 

Maybe that's why we manage to keep a 60f x 10/6 wide beam warm with just a 4kw Bubble stove mostly set on low.

thats interesting about the mushroom vents.think i will try it out.

 

blackrose,i have been thinking about this as well and am considering the secondary double gazing route.as in using perspex and magnetic tape.

[blackrose]

Our doors are fully lined in a pleated edge door with 18mm ply and have MDF on top of that creating a raised 3" border around the door. I see little gain in insulating a boat door though unless it's fully sealed also like a double glazed unit.

 

We find to conserve heat and save on energy that plugging all mushroom vents in the winter and not sealing the side and front door hatches which easily compensate for the lost venting in the roof, a much more common sense approach. I posted somewhere recently that the small gaps around doors & hatches doubled the square area of ventilation of that from mushroom vents.

 

We do though have a super dooper heavy duty insulated curtain across the cratch doors, it's amazing how well it holds back the cold but still lets air in for ventilation.

 

Mushroom vents are totally useless the majority of heat you produce will go straight through the roof, block them and get ventilation lower down.

 

Maybe that's why we manage to keep a 60f x 10/6 wide beam warm with just a 4kw Bubble stove mostly set on low.

 

I totally agree about the loss of heat through mushroom vents, but is blocking them really wise? I thought they were designed as non-closeable vents and recommended as such for a reason? You say block them and get the air in lower down but then you're putting a thick curtain across the door vents too! If the curtain prevents the cold it must prevent cold air getting in too. I'm not sure if what you're doing is safe. Of course it's your boat and your life, but it's certainly not something I think you should be recommending to others.

 

BSS Essential Guide Section 8.9: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss%20guide%202005%20complete%20web.pdf

 

The gain in insulating a door or hatch is surely exactly the same as insulating any other part of a steel hull? You wouldn't just stick a 4ft x 2ft piece of ply or MDF to the steel somewhere on the inside of your cabin side and expect it to insulate very well, so the same principal applies with a steel door.

thats interesting about the mushroom vents.think i will try it out.

 

blackrose,i have been thinking about this as well and am considering the secondary double gazing route.as in using perspex and magnetic tape.

 

I've just got portholes and I have porthole bungs which insulate them very well.

Edited December 7, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

 

I totally agree about the loss of heat through mushroom vents, but is blocking them really wise? I thought they were designed as non-closeable vents and recommended as such for a reason? In addition to blocking your mushroom vents you're putting a thick curtain across the door vents too - if it prevents the cold it must also be preventing cold air getting in. I'm not sure if what you're doing is safe.

 

The gain in insulating a door or hatch is surely exactly the same as insulating any other part of a steel hull? You wouldn't just stick a 4ft x 2ft piece of ply or MDF somewhere on the inside of your cabin side and expect it to insulate very well, so the same principal applies with a steel door.

 

Not unless the door is sealed as I stated, and you're not going to equal a thickness of 50mm to equal insulation to the boat unless you want a very thick door. Whats the point in insulating a door with an air gap letting in cold air all around the insulation. If the door is sealed air tight such as a DG front door, then there's a little bit of mileage in attempting to make the door better insulated.

 

The curtain we use stops the cold reaching into the room like from a cold radiator (the 2 doors) if you like. But fresh air can still enter the boat without causing a draft directly into the room. Bearing in mind also the vents that feed air to the bilge also usually fitted in the cratch bulkhead or lower cratch doors. We also have holes in the cabin floors where fans are used in the summer so air will be naturally drawn through these as well through the cabins bilges, so we suffer no ventilation issues at all.

 

The gaps around doors are non closable vents. Our doors are a very good fit, but there's still an average of a 1 to 2mm wide gap all around the door edges and doors centre opening, the amassed cubic capacity of these gaps from front and side doors far exceed the cubic capacity of all the mushroom vents on the boat, so it's ridiculous keeping them open and letting heat escape. The heat will now escape through the tops of the doors rather than directly through the roof via 5 bloody great holes.

 

I posted measurements of vent capacities on another thread some time ago, I recall the natural gaps around our doors and hatches were nearly twice the cubic mm capacity of our 5 mushroom vents.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Julynian

[pquinn]

 

I totally agree about the loss of heat through mushroom vents, but is blocking them really wise? I thought they were designed as non-closeable vents and recommended as such for a reason? You say block them and get the air in lower down but then you're putting a thick curtain across the door vents too! If the curtain prevents the cold it must prevent cold air getting in too. I'm not sure if what you're doing is safe. Of course it's your boat and your life, but it's certainly not something I think you should be recommending to others.

 

BSS Essential Guide Section 8.9: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss%20guide%202005%20complete%20web.pdf

 

The gain in insulating a door or hatch is surely exactly the same as insulating any other part of a steel hull? You wouldn't just stick a 4ft x 2ft piece of ply or MDF to the steel somewhere on the inside of your cabin side and expect it to insulate very well, so the same principal applies with a steel door.

 

I've just got portholes and I have porthole bungs which insulate them very well.

no you have me wrong. what i mean is put a sheet of perspex over the sidehatches,attached to the frame,if you have clearance for the handles.it seems to me that it would be the same principal as doing the windows and would be easy to remove if needed.

 

paul

Edited December 7, 2013 by pquinn

[Phil Ambrose]

Ihave been thinking about insulating our steel doors because 2 years ago we got down to Minus 19 one night and the doors had a layer of frost forming and spreading from where the 2 doors met. The cold was spreading in from the steel even though the boat was at about 78fh

It was like the. Day After Tomorrow

Phil

[ditchcrawler]

We have two side doors and these are normally open with a clear plastic sheet in their place, last year I made these sheets into double glazing, they are not hermetically sealed and the spiders creep into them, but they are quite warm and less drafty than the side doors being shut.

[Machpoint005]

Er -- cold doesn't get in, heat gets out.

 

I wouldn't be at all happy about blocking up mushroom vents. They are there for a reason. If a boat with blocked vents would fail BSS, that's a really good reason for not blocking them. Safety rules are there for a reason. Let's have a little think about what that reason might be....

[Phil Ambrose]

We have two side doors and these are normally open with a clear plastic sheet in their place, last year I made these sheets into double glazing, they are not hermetically sealed and the spiders creep into them, but they are quite warm and less drafty than the side doors being shut.

Sounds like a good idea, provides a thermal break even though not sealed

Phil

[PaulJ]

I would not put anything on top of the mdf blackrose. If any water ever does get behind and blow the mdf it will push out and ruin whatever you have on top too.

[blackrose]

 

Not unless the door is sealed as I stated, and you're not going to equal a thickness of 50mm to equal insulation to the boat unless you want a very thick door. Whats the point in insulating a door with an air gap letting in cold air all around the insulation.

 

This doesn't make much sense. Using your argument then if you have holes in the doors what's the point of insulating the rest of the boat? Boat builders insulate the roof of boats and then cut holes in the roof for the mushroom vents - you must be wondering what the point of insulating the roof is?

 

I could actually turn your argument around and ask what's the point of having 50mm thick insulation when your doors aren't insulated?

 

As it happens I don't have 50mm thick insulation on my boat (I don't think most people do), but why do you think the door insulation would have to equal the thickness of the rest of the boat to be of use? Any thickness of insulation is better than none at all!

 

I've read threads on this subject before and plenty of people have insulated doors on their boats. It's uninsulated doors like ours that are generally viewed as inferior.

I would not put anything on top of the mdf blackrose. If any water ever does get behind and blow the mdf it will push out and ruin whatever you have on top too.

 

Yes, that's true, but it's been there for 9 years and it hasn't blown yet - I think it must be the water-resistant MDF.

Edited December 7, 2013 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

Er -- cold doesn't get in, heat gets out.

 

I wouldn't be at all happy about blocking up mushroom vents. They are there for a reason. If a boat with blocked vents would fail BSS, that's a really good reason for not blocking them. Safety rules are there for a reason. Let's have a little think about what that reason might be....

No it wouldn't

[Tam & Di]

As it happens I don't have 50mm thick insulation on my boat (I don't think most people do), but why do you think the door insulation would have to equal the thickness of the rest of the boat to be of use? Any thickness of insulation is better than none at all!

 

 

I'd agree that any door insulation would be better than none. I do have 50mm foam spray throughout, but our entrance is virtually open to the world (well, to the poorly insulated wheelhouse at least). We have a heavy insulated curtain there which is really effective and it would certainly be a fairly cheap practical option in addition to any door in your case.

[blackrose]

 

I'd agree that any door insulation would be better than none.

 

Well exactly. Since the door is much bigger than the door vent why wouldn't you want it insulated? Ideally we wouldn't have vents at all but we have to work within the safety recommendations and you do what you can to keep the heat in (which should not include blocking vents!)

Edited December 7, 2013 by blackrose

[Wild Is The Wind]

I made some porthole bungs today as the temporary ones i made last winter where excellent, and im keeping my mushroom vents as they are, they are there for good reason. My 60 x 10 space is plenty warm enough with Squirrel stove kept on 24/7, but have draughty Stern doors and sliding hatch. Not really a problem as warm enough with a curtain and making some draught blockers for hatch tomorrow, but really interested in ideas for insulating these areas.

[Ex- Member]

This doesn't make much sense. Using your argument then if you have holes in the doors what's the point of insulating the rest of the boat? Boat builders insulate the roof of boats and then cut holes in the roof for the mushroom vents - you must be wondering what the point of insulating the roof is?

I could actually turn your argument around and ask what's the point of having 50mm thick insulation when your doors aren't insulated?

As it happens I don't have 50mm thick insulation on my boat (I don't think most people do), but why do you think the door insulation would have to equal the thickness of the rest of the boat to be of use? Any thickness of insulation is better than none at all!

I've read threads on this subject before and plenty of people have insulated doors on their boats. It's uninsulated doors like ours that are generally viewed as inferio

My point is putting a thin layer of insulation on a door isn't going to assist much in greater scheme of things, especially if there's a gap around the door blowing cold air in or heat leaking out. where the heat will go directly to the gap as it does in a mushroom vent. You would be much better off blocking the nearest mushroom vent and let the gaps around your doors compensate for the blocked mushroom and save all the faffing around, Wasn't it you said keep it simple!

 

The insulated curtain works well and can be easily removed for the summer.

 

You made my point for me regarding mushroom vents, thank you

 

8.9.1 is advisory

 

Venting doesn't have to be done with mushroom vents or through the roof either.

 

The ventilation requirement needs to be split as equally as practicable between:

■ high level (ideally cabin roof), and,

■ low level.

Ideally is not a requirement. Having said that I would keep the m vents as their far better designed for ventilation in the summer months.

 

 

This is from the BSS part 8.9 you supplied.

Fixed ventilation accords with Annex B of PD 5482-3.

Permanent and measurable gaps around doors and windows when the

windows or doors are fully closed can be taken into account as part of

the total fixed ventilation provision.

Exactly as I stated regarding our ventilation which actually exceeds that of the 5 mushroom vents we have on the roof

Edited December 8, 2013 by Julynian

[blackrose]

My responses in red italics.

 

My point is putting a thin layer of insulation on a door isn't going to assist much in greater scheme of things, especially if there's a gap around the door blowing cold air in or heat leaking out. where the heat will go directly to the gap as it does in a mushroom vent. You would be much better off blocking the nearest mushroom vent and let the gaps around your doors compensate for the blocked mushroom and save all the faffing around, Wasn't it you said keep it simple!

 

Yes I understood what you said the first time, but it still doesn't make sense. Any insulation you can put on an uninsulated area of the boat will aid in the overall insulation of the boat. This includes areas next to vents. That's why your roof insulation goes all the way up to the holes for your mushroom vents. If you don't think it works then why don't you take away the insulation in a 3ft diameter all around your mushroom vents?

 

The insulated curtain works well and can be easily removed for the summer.

 

I'm sure the curtain does work well, but part of the reason it's working is because it's blocking the door vents.

 

You made my point for me regarding mushroom vents, thank you

 

8.9.1 is advisory (Yes, that's why I said recommendation. I never said it was a regulation)

 

Venting doesn't have to be done with mushroom vents or through the roof either. (I didn't say it had to be)

 

The ventilation requirement needs to be split as equally as practicable between:

■ high level (ideally cabin roof), and,

■ low level.

Ideally is not a requirement. Having said that I would keep the m vents as their far better designed for ventilation in the summer months.

 

Again, I never said the BSS ventilation recommendations were a requirement. I think you need to read my posts properly.

 

This is from the BSS part 8.9 you supplied.

Fixed ventilation accords with Annex B of PD 5482-3.

Permanent and measurable gaps around doors and windows when the

windows or doors are fully closed can be taken into account as part of

the total fixed ventilation provision.

Exactly as I stated regarding our ventilation which actually exceeds that of the 5 mushroom vents we have on the roof

 

Are you saying that you've done the minimum effective area calculations (taking into account the input kW rating of all appliances and the number of people on board), and you've found that the area of ventilation on your boat exceeds the recommendations even with all the mushroom ventsblocked? I find that very hard to believe. Anyway, if the low level vents including the gaps around your doors do exceed the minimum effective area on your boat then fine, block your mushroom vents, but since you haven't done those calculations for other forum member's boats I really don't think you should be advising others do the same. Someone might die following your advice.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter.

Edited December 8, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

 

My responses in red italics.

 

My point is putting a thin layer of insulation on a door isn't going to assist much in greater scheme of things, especially if there's a gap around the door blowing cold air in or heat leaking out. where the heat will go directly to the gap as it does in a mushroom vent. You would be much better off blocking the nearest mushroom vent and let the gaps around your doors compensate for the blocked mushroom and save all the faffing around, Wasn't it you said keep it simple!

 

Yes I understood what you said the first time, but it still doesn't make sense. Any insulation you can put on an uninsulated area of the boat will aid in the overall insulation of the boat. This includes areas next to vents. That's why your roof insulation goes all the way up to the holes for your mushroom vents. If you don't think it works then why don't you take away the insulation in a 3ft diameter all around your mushroom vents?

 

The insulated curtain works well and can be easily removed for the summer.

 

I'm sure the curtain does work well, but part of the reason it's working is because it's blocking the door vents.

 

You made my point for me regarding mushroom vents, thank you

 

8.9.1 is advisory (Yes, that's why I said recommendation. I never said it was a regulation)

 

Venting doesn't have to be done with mushroom vents or through the roof either. (I didn't say it had to be)

 

The ventilation requirement needs to be split as equally as practicable between:

■ high level (ideally cabin roof), and,

■ low level.

Ideally is not a requirement. Having said that I would keep the m vents as their far better designed for ventilation in the summer months.

 

Again, I never said the BSS ventilation recommendations were a requirement. I think you need to read my posts properly.

 

This is from the BSS part 8.9 you supplied.

Fixed ventilation accords with Annex B of PD 5482-3.

Permanent and measurable gaps around doors and windows when the

windows or doors are fully closed can be taken into account as part of

the total fixed ventilation provision.

Exactly as I stated regarding our ventilation which actually exceeds that of the 5 mushroom vents we have on the roof

 

Are you saying that you've done the minimum effective area calculations (taking into account the input kW rating of all appliances and the number of people on board), and you've found that the area of ventilation on your boat exceeds the recommendations even with all the mushroom ventsblocked? I find that very hard to believe. Anyway, if the low level vents including the gaps around your doors do exceed the minimum effective area on your boat then fine, block your mushroom vents, but since you haven't done those calculations for other forum member's boats I really don't think you should be advising others do the same. Someone might die following your advice.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter.

 

 

You really are an arse BR, why you feel the need to make false assumptions with regard to any calculations I may or may not have made for venting is bemusing, It's astonishing how the more presumptuous you become especially when you're losing the argument.

 

 

 

As you're supposedly so clever, with your qualifications and uber experience in cavity wall insulation, I would have thought that insulating your boat properly in the first place would be a priority, still as is abundantly clear you have obviously have a work ethic that works ass backwords.

 

All other points have been covered, It's just you choose to ignore them or it's simply a level of ignorance that abounds, gauging from your reply. Still at least were avoiding a hissy fit this time and you feeling the need to require other members such as my self to go f--k right off is currently curtailed

 

Grow up!

Edited December 8, 2013 by Julynian