RCD?

[Radiomariner]

Here is the details of the declaration as promised. I had to convert it from a PDF file so the logo is missing, and line spacing slightly differs;

Dear Customer,

I am required under BSS procedures to obtain a declaration from you as the private owner of a “selfbuild“ (or “sailaway“) vessel that may become subject to the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCRs).

Your boat will become subject to the RCRs if you sell it within the first five years of first use. If you build for your own use and don’t put your boat on the market within five years, it’s excluded from the scope of the RCRs. An information sheet containing further advice and information on self-build boat projects and CE marking is available from the BSS Office.

I would appreciate your help by completing the vessel details box & declaration which I will hold in my personal files. The declaration will be kept confidential, however will be shared with Trading Standards officers in the event of any enquiry.

Examiner name: ………………………………………………… BSS PIN: ……………………………… Address: ……………………………………………………………………………………………………….

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

………………………………………………………………………. Phone number: …………………….…

Please complete the vessel details and owner declaration below and return the form to me.

Vessel Details

Name of Vessel:

Date First Used (i.e. the date the hull was first floated):

Name of Hull Manufacturer:

Navigation Authority Index/Registration No. (if allocated):

Owner Declaration

I confirm that the following statements are true:

1. I require a BSS Certificate in support of an application to permit navigation for the above named vessel.

2. **The boat is not complete albeit that at least one system (i.e. gas or fuel or electrical) is complete.

OR

**The boat is complete in all respects.

(** Delete as appropriate).

3. I have no intention to place the above named vessel on the market within five years of the date first used.

 

Name of Owner: …..……………………………………………………………………………(Please print)

Signed: …….………………………………………………… Date: ……………………………………

Well I never have, I had the first inspection before the boat was launched. I am one of those strange people who think a boat should be licensed before you start using it. another when it was just under 4 years old a third before it was 8 and next year it will be coming up to 12.

Ah, There you are then. The RCD did not come into existence until 1996 and was not fully implemented until quite a few years later………………

Edited November 17, 2013 by Radiomariner

[ditchcrawler]

I would suggest the BSS are outside their remit by insisting upon this and wonder what would happen if an owner refuses to sign it. A BSS is a requirement of many navigation authorities and while I appreciate you as an individual could refuse to inspect my boat, it thing BSS would be on a sticky wicket if CaRT issued a section 8 and took a boater to court for not having licences his boat and it turned the reason for that was the BSS refusing to allow its inspector to carry out an inspection due to this declaration.

 

That is of course only my opinion, but it would be nice to see what the judge said.

Edited November 17, 2013 by ditchcrawler

[Teadaemon]

I would suggest the BSS are outside their remit by insisting upon this and wonder what would happen if an owner refuses to sign it. A BSS is a requirement of many navigation authorities and while I appreciate you as an individual could refuse to inspect my boat, it thing BSS would be on a sticky wicket if CaRT issued a section 8 and took a boater to court for not having licences his boat and it turned the reason for that was the BSS refusing to allow its inspector to carry out an inspection due to this declaration.

 

That is of course only my opinion, but it would be nice to see what the judge said.

 

I suspect a judge would ask why the boater had a problem signing a declaration to say that they were aware of the law and did not intend to break it.

 

BSS examiners work for themselves, not the BSS. If people do not wish to comply with my terms & conditions (such as signed the above mentioned declaration), then I'm not required to do business with them. As it's my PI insurance (and £5,000 excess) that's on the line in the event of a civil claim, and my liberty and wallet at risk in the event of a criminal prosecution, I'm going to take such steps as I consider necessary to cover my own backside.

[Timleech]

I'm intrigued to know some more detail of how BSS examiners have got dragged in to this, as others have said it superficially appears to have nothing to do with them.

 

Tim

[Radiomariner]

I would suggest the BSS are outside their remit by insisting upon this and wonder what would happen if an owner refuses to sign it. A BSS is a requirement of many navigation authorities and while I appreciate you as an individual could refuse to inspect my boat, it thing BSS would be on a sticky wicket if CaRT issued a section 8 and took a boater to court for not having licences his boat and it turned the reason for that was the BSS refusing to allow its inspector to carry out an inspection due to this declaration.

 

That is of course only my opinion, but it would be nice to see what the judge said. /[unquote]

 

You posted this while I was still writing my post above. Did you see it all? I had an interruption in the middle.

 

No I do not think it out of the BSS remit to ask an owner if he intended to break the law thereby possibly instigating a law suit against the examiner.

As things stand, the boat should normally would have a valid full RCD or be over 4 years old when the BSS examiner first sees it. The boat, if on the water must be licensed and to do so, if it is less than five years old have valid RCD compliance or BSS compliance The Annex iii was designed to allow to get round this requirements as far as sailaways (unfinished boats) for licencing by automatically allowing the purchaser a further year to complete the boat. This is a Trading Standards issue licencing authorities do not concern themselves with this, they just want one or the other. The BSS Certificate (Now examination record) if issued would allow the boat to be sold on and licensed but would be in breach of Trading Standards. The examiner may be accused of participating in this, hence the "Declaration" Cover my ass!

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2013 by Radiomariner

[ditchcrawler]

I do hope the examiners don't think I am having a go at them, as I said as individuals they are quite at liability to refuse to work on anything the wish to. It was the BSS putting it forward I was commenting on.

[Radiomariner]

I do hope the examiners don't think I am having a go at them, as I said as individuals they are quite at liability to refuse to work on anything the wish to. It was the BSS putting it forward I was commenting on.

 

No offence taken. I just wish I had not brought the subject of the Declaration up, as it is only marginal to the subject of the OP.

 

I had case recently where a boat constructed in 2001 with an annex iii, had been taken by road and kept out of the water in a shed or barn until this year. The new owner needed a licence to fit it out while in the water. It turned out the new owner was the son of the original buyer and no sale had taken place, so that was OK. However he told me his intention was to fit it out and sell as soon as possible as a New Boat. I honestly wish he had not told me that, A lot of research ensued, we had it all agreed on he was going to sign the declaration but when I turned up for the examination, (a 60 mile round trip) the boat was gone. I found out that another examiner had examined it on the previous day and that the boat had acquired a full RCD number dated 2001 which is odd, because the boat was never fully fitted out. Anyway, I don't think he will be able to sell it as new without an explanation for the 2001 CE Markings.

 

By the way, I seem to have obliterated your "unquation" from my last post, running my part as though it looked as it came from you.

I have forgotten how to replace it. I know square brackets slash marks and the word unquote are involved but I can't seem to get it right.

can somebody reading this thread help me!

Edited November 17, 2013 by Radiomariner

[smileypete]

Surely all the BSS certificate does is certify the boat meets the BSS requirements at the time of inspection, nothing more nothing less, bit like an MOT.

 

It does not guarantee safety, quality, merchantability or anything like that, just that the BSS requirements were met at time of inspection.

 

Any civil claim otherwise should be bound to fail, and the costs recoverable.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited November 17, 2013 by smileypete

[Bettie Boo]

Hi again BB

Below a link to a doc that explains all you need to know and agree with any seller that the boat is fit for sale

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/RCD%20Documents/1%20RCD%20Compliance%20Guide.pdf

 

Good Luck

 

Hi Ray / ditchcrawler and all the others who have donated valuable advice/questions & comments on this thread (even though it seems I've hijacked the OP questions)

 

We've seen the boat now, and I did not see, either a CE mark, or any written evidence to imply it meet with the RCD requirements. We made the vendor clearly aware that although we were very interested in the purchase of the boat we would not be proceeding any further until we were satisfied that the boat was in a position to be sold legally, compliant with the RCD requirements & CE marked. Once we are satisfied with that, then we can get on with the survey and such.

 

Ta again,

 

Betty~

[Bee]

The fact that this is such a long thread indicates that the RCD is confusing. I am going to stick my neck out and say that the BSS is actually more stringent than the RCD re. safety and construction and all the practical stuff that really matters, the exception being cat. a and b and a few items such as stability.

If you have a BSS the boat is ok

Having a boat with an RCD only means that getting a BSS should not present much difficulty

The only extras you get with an RCD is a craft id number and a manual

Only the masons and a few secret societies know what the requirements actually are

It only exists because that is what beaurocrats do to justify themselves

[dmr]

The fact that this is such a long thread indicates that the RCD is confusing. I am going to stick my neck out and say that the BSS is actually more stringent than the RCD re. safety and construction and all the practical stuff that really matters, the exception being cat. a and b and a few items such as stability.

If you have a BSS the boat is ok

Having a boat with an RCD only means that getting a BSS should not present much difficulty

The only extras you get with an RCD is a craft id number and a manual

Only the masons and a few secret societies know what the requirements actually are

It only exists because that is what beaurocrats do to justify themselves

 

I have noticed that some of the younger and more alternative boaties do have a slightly unusual handshake, it had not occurred to me that they could be freemasons.....

 

(before this thread goes off in another direction I should point out that I am joking, I am pretty sure they are not, but who knows)

 

.............Dave

[bottle]

The RCD and the BSS are two completely different animals.

 

The RCD is to ensure the boat and equipment is designed and built to certain standards for the use it will be put to.

 

The BSS is to ensure that any equipment (specified) is up to standard and will not damage or cause injury to third parties etc.

[raymondh]

Hi,

The RCD is available on line and is basically imposing standards of design, construction, safety and quality on the boat industry

The BSS is based on the RDC and shares many common aspects but the RCD is about standards both ISO and BS all of which are

quoted and listed in the RCD

The standards ISO/BS are available from many sources and it is not possible to build a complient boat without full and propper

knowledge of the standards

When my boat was in build I obtained copies of the RCD and all the BS/ISO standards refered to from my city library so I know my boat is complient - not one to spend my hard earned without knowing what I am getting

I will admit to one omission that I intend to correct when I find a suitable way of complying with the relevant standard

I am not saying that you cant have a good boat without RCD just one that is not complient if appicable

Regards Ray

Bee and others who have not read the RCD,

I repeat above the RCD is about improving boat build quality and safety and before rubbishing it should read both the RCD and the standards it imposes

I have no problem with any attempt to make boating safer

Ray

[Bee]

Raymond, when I built my boat I also obtained some of the relevant standards from the library, it was free to me but it cost them at the time, I think, £15 per standard to obtain them, they might not be so keen now as there are so many standards and so little money in the library, however, that may or may not be the case in different areas, I have read huge amounts on the RCD and apart from stability tests I cannot see that it adds much to the BSS. My problem with it is that one cannot `read` the RCD as it does not exist in an accessible form to the likes of us. It`s rather like the medieval church conducting its affairs in Latin, it costs builders (and us) money but we haven`t a clue what we are paying for. We assume it is about safety an quality. Most of the dratted thing is about keeping records and producing a manual. Perhaps the standards are online now, in which case I shall happily eat a couple of hats and some humble pie.

[Ex- Member]

Just out of interest, surely there's a record somewhere that a boat has indeed been granted or obtained a RCD I know ours has, but recently licencing the boat I recall we couldn't find the paper work for it, although it transpired it wasn't required anyway for licencing.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Julynian

[Bee]

I don`t think there is for cat d and some cat c as they are not examined by a third party, there may be for a and b

Edited November 17, 2013 by Bee

[Ex- Member]

I don`t think there is for cat d and some cat c as they are not examined by a third party, there may be for a and b

 

Apologies it's a certificate of conformity I was thinking about.

[Keith M]

The fact that this is such a long thread indicates that the RCD is confusing. I am going to stick my neck out and say that the BSS is actually more stringent than the RCD re. safety and construction and all the practical stuff that really matters, the exception being cat. a and b and a few items such as stability.

If you have a BSS the boat is ok

Having a boat with an RCD only means that getting a BSS should not present much difficulty

The only extras you get with an RCD is a craft id number and a manual

Only the masons and a few secret societies know what the requirements actually are

It only exists because that is what beaurocrats do to justify themselves

 

 

Hello B,

 

I under took an electrical survey last week the vessel is not 4 weeks old yet

It has a BSS

 

And it also has the worst electrical installation both AC and DC that I have every seen on a New Boat

 

In my experience BS examiners are very poor when it comes to electrical installations

 

The standards for the electrical installation are in two BS EN ISO 10133 and 13297

 

Keith

[Radiomariner]

 

 

Hello B,

 

I under took an electrical survey last week the vessel is not 4 weeks old yet

It has a BSS

 

And it also has the worst electrical installation both AC and DC that I have every seen on a New Boat

 

In my experience BS examiners are very poor when it comes to electrical installations

 

The standards for the electrical installation are in two BS EN ISO 10133 and 13297

 

Keith

Some BSS examiners are very well qualified, others may not be so. The point is however the BSS examiner is not inspecting that the "standard" has been adhered to but is a box ticking exercise to ensure that the boat is safe to third parties. For example, Standards dictate the size of cables to be used taking into account voltage drop and resulting efficiency. The BSS only ensures that the breakers will trip before the (possibly undersized) cable will become overheated and cause fire

Also, BSS examiners are limited by what they can see without pulling the boat apart.

Incidentally a recent change in the private boat checking procedures eased off on checking cable sizes,because with modern cables having higher specifications it is too difficult for examiners to determine just by visual examination.

There have been more electrical checks added to the procedures this year and it is envisaged that there will be more.

[Keith M]

Some BSS examiners are very well qualified, others may not be so. The point is however the BSS examiner is not inspecting that the "standard" has been adhered to but is a box ticking exercise to ensure that the boat is safe to third parties. For example, Standards dictate the size of cables to be used taking into account voltage drop and resulting efficiency. The BSS only ensures that the breakers will trip before the (possibly undersized) cable will become overheated and cause fire

Also, BSS examiners are limited by what they can see without pulling the boat apart.

Incidentally a recent change in the private boat checking procedures eased off on checking cable sizes,because with modern cables having higher specifications it is too difficult for examiners to determine just by visual examination.

There have been more electrical checks added to the procedures this year and it is envisaged that there will be more.

 

But surely after completing the training BSS examiners should all be of a similar standard across the board

 

What happens if the breakers are not there?

 

I am sorry but I do not understand on one hand the BSS is being watered down and on the other it is becoming more serve

 

Us your own words you are not allow to pull the boats apart so how can the test become tighter

 

Keith

[Bee]

Hi Radiomariner,

Yes, that should not have happened, I don`t think any amount of regs. will stop someone doing a rubbish job and of course without an inspecting body you can pretty much get away with it (and that is the last thing anybody wants) Also there is a bit of subjectivity in these things, I MOT`d my old micra recently and after a lot of work it passed, I would hate to take it to another garage for another test! Thing is, we are subject to two very similar regimes, the BSS, mostly a `Good Thing` that carries no penalties for non compliance (and nor should it, there are too many regs already) and the RCD, which adds little of any real substance but which is full of dire threats but hard (and unnecessary for the self builder) to comply with. I suppose this is just an EU anomaly that the UK has to live with but It leads to situations such as the OP faces, could be a v. good boat but blighted by peoples misconceptions.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

 

Therefore, you are not committing any crime by buying the boat, and you would not be committing one by subsequently selling the boat, even if within 5 years of completion

 

 

 

 

That's not the conclusion I would draw after reading the Hampshire Trading Standards website on the RCD. HTSD is the lead TSD on this subject in England so we treat it as the authoritative source of information. But it is open information and people should read it for themselves. It is always best to draw on the details from the horses mouth rather than a 'chorus of supposes' and assumptions. http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-boats.htm

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

That's not the conclusion I would draw after reading the Hampshire Trading Standards website on the RCD. HTSD is the lead TSD on this subject in England so we treat it as the authoritative source of information. But it is open information and people should read it for themselves. It is always best to draw on the details from the horses mouth rather than a 'chorus of supposes' and assumptions. http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-boats.htm

 

And if your conclusion is true, as I fear it might be, then that fully justifies the BSS inspectors asking for the declaration about resale. Otherwise I strongly suspect they could be charged with some form of collusion to commit an illegal act if they issue a BSC to a non-CE marked boat that is required to have one.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

I do hope the examiners don't think I am having a go at them, as I said as individuals they are quite at liability to refuse to work on anything the wish to. It was the BSS putting it forward I was commenting on.

 

I understand you raising the point and on face value it is an innocent enough point, but the declaration of intention is there to protect the examiner from a criminal prosecution as an accessory.

 

If in such a situation, the owner will not sign our document, the examiner is asked by us, to walk away.

 

If the navigation authority won't licence the vessel because of the lack of certification, then that is a conversation for the navigation and boat owner to have.

 

Our examiners must protect themselves from possible criminal investigations. On two occasions we have had examiners interviewed under caution by investigating officers from trading standards departments and we do not wish that to happen again.

 

This why we have put this protection in place.

 

HTH

[smileypete]

 

 

Hello B,

 

I under took an electrical survey last week the vessel is not 4 weeks old yet

It has a BSS

 

And it also has the worst electrical installation both AC and DC that I have every seen on a New Boat

 

In my experience BS examiners are very poor when it comes to electrical installations

 

The standards for the electrical installation are in two BS EN ISO 10133 and 13297

 

Keith

 

BSS does not guarantee safety or quality, just that the boat passed the requirements at time of inspection. If discrepancies were found by yourself right after the BSS inspection took place, why not take it up with the BSS office?

 

The best way to guarantee safety and quality on a new build is have a good surveyor or someone equally competent to oversee the build.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~