The Bottom's Too Close To The Top

[Doorman]

We are currently enjoying a cruise on the beautiful Llangollen Canal and have opted to chance this outing in full knowledge of the fact that it is a shallow canal and our draft is 73cm (2'5").

 

Having first read about the tug boat nb Greenman with a draft of 84cm (2'9") that towed the butty nb Saturn all the way up to Trevor, and speaking to other boaters who had cruised here with deeper drafted boats than ours, we felt that we would have few problems with grounding the boat. Wrong!

 

We have grounded on several sections prior to the Ellesmere/Trevor part of the route - CaRT advise to avoid if your boat draws more than 68.5cm (2'3") - but once passed Ellesmere it became problematic to say the least. At New Marton Locks our boat stuck fast as she entered the lock grounding heavily at midships. The only way to get her off the bottom was for me to open both of the upper paddles creating a flow of water through the lock chamber and raising the boat just enough to allow her to enter the lock fully.

 

What compounded the problem was the arrival of an Australian hire boater lady who passed me as I was raising the upper paddles. To advise her why I was doing this I explained that we were stuck fast and I had to somehow raise the boat with the flow of water. Yet to my amazement and Mrs Doorman's consternation, this lady shouted; "you have to close the gates before you open the paddles!" Streuth.

 

When the penny finally dropped and our boat gracefully elevated - with the bottom gates closed of course - we then proceeded carefully to exit the lock. Anyone who knows this second of the two locks will remember the weir that is to your starboard side and that you have to clear it before it gets you. The Australians positioned their boat right in front of ours forcing me to edge towards the weir. Then just as my path was clear, another hire boat enters the short mooring section blocking my exit. Wallop, straight on the weir and going nowhere fast.

 

Containing myself and mustering all of the tolerance possible, I explained that we were stuck on the bottom and they had to get out of the way for me to get free. This has been one of many interludes so far where the shallowness of the canal has caused issues with our journey.

 

How on earth did the canal carriers of days gone by manage to navigate this man made phenomena when fully loaded?

Edited September 10, 2013 by Doorman

[luctor et emergo]

They managed. Because they had to.

[Doorman]

They managed. Because they had to.

 

Yes, they probably did Luctor and I appreciate the difficulty in digging out this canal in the first place, but why not go the extra mile and cut it that much deeper?

[dmr]

I can beat that story!.

 

We did the Llangollen two years ago and learned that we are a bit fatter than we should be, so had to go up the first two locks backwards.

Whilst filing the lock someone told us we were doing it wrong and should be emptying it!

 

We had surprisingly few groundings and we are about 2'8" deep. We had a couple of nasty bangs which were almost certainly due to submerged rocks but only really grounded once and that was probably because I strayed too far from the centre. I wonder if has got more silted in the last couple of years?, and does the flow make silting better or worse???

 

Do not miss a ride on the steam railway, its lovely.

 

..............Dave

[nicknorman]

Hi Mr D, really glad you and Mrs D are out and about on a trip. I wonder where you get your draft at 2' 5" from? Ours is 2'8". I know this not because the spec says so (it doesn't!) but because I have hooked a tape measure under the skeg and found the waterline at 2'8. That is stationary, it will be deeper when under way.

 

Nevertheless, we didn't struggle much up to Trevor, I recall a couple of issues with bricks on the bottom that we hit but scraped over without quite coming to rest.

 

Beyond Trevor it was tricky, but we got to Llangollen in the end - perseverance required!

Edited September 10, 2013 by nicknorman

[tillergirl]

We've just done that trip and we draw 28" max..............yea we scraped the bottom sometimes but it was worth it

[dor]

I know some people that went all the way to Llangollen last year and their boat draws just under 3 foot. Took them a week to get there though!

[slammer]

Hiya Mike

I would be very surprised if your draft isnt a tad deeper than 2,5 , I know mine is .

 

P.s Hope the trip is going ok , we are due up that way at the start of October.

[Grace and Favour]

Grounding one's craft on the transit of the Llangollen is a positive way to reduce the number of freshwater molluscs squatting on one's underside

[Doorman]

dmr, on 10 Sept 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:dmr, on 10 Sept 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

I can beat that story!.

 

We did the Llangollen two years ago and learned that we are a bit fatter than we should be, so had to go up the first two locks backwards.

Whilst filing the lock someone told us we were doing it wrong and should be emptying it!

 

We had surprisingly few groundings and we are about 2'8" deep. We had a couple of nasty bangs which were almost certainly due to submerged rocks but only really grounded once and that was probably because I strayed too far from the centre. I wonder if has got more silted in the last couple of years?, and does the flow make silting better or worse???

 

Do not miss a ride on the steam railway, its lovely.

 

..............Dave

 

 

Hello Dave,

 

yes, we always create confusion when reversing down the locks back to Overwater Marina to pump out. I once mentioned reversing down from lock 12 on the Audlem flight to the water point outside the Shroppie Fly, when the Festival of Transport was at full throw. Negotiating backwards past the infamous bye wash is challenging enough but when another boater is trying to enter the bridgehole before you are out of it is somethig else! Whilst passing him amongst the gauntlet of historic boats and their proud owners, I asked what he was trying to do? His explanation was that because he could see our tunnel bands he thought that we were actually going up the flight!

 

I managed to swerve past the old boats and into the wharf for water without bashing into any of them and all without the help of the 'girlie button'.

 

We shall be staying over in Llangollen for the night - if we make it ok - and hopefully if I can trick Mrs Doorman into believing that the steam train is one of those little fairground rides, I'll get her on it. The trick will be when she asks for candyfloss and I have to say that there's none left!

Edited September 11, 2013 by Doorman

[Doorman]

Hi Mr D, really glad you and Mrs D are out and about on a trip. I wonder where you get your draft at 2' 5" from? Ours is 2'8". I know this not because the spec says so (it doesn't!) but because I have hooked a tape measure under the skeg and found the waterline at 2'8. That is stationary, it will be deeper when under way.

 

Nevertheless, we didn't struggle much up to Trevor, I recall a couple of issues with bricks on the bottom that we hit but scraped over without quite coming to rest.

 

Beyond Trevor it was tricky, but we got to Llangollen in the end - perseverance required!

 

Hi Nick,

 

I recall you using the weed hatch technique to measure your true draft and used it myself, recording an initial draft of 27" or 2'3" in old money. But with the addition of four Trojan 225amp/hour batteries weighing in at 55kilos and our chest freezer at the stern, we now sink to 2'5" and as you say, that is whilst statonary.

 

In order to mitigate the problem we have been cruising along at a snail's pace with tortoises overtaking at an embarrasing rate! Nevertheless, the upshot is that we have even more time to take in the wonderful views that make this trip worth the effort. We were going to do the Weaver if you recall, but Chrissie's medical regime dictated that we shall have to do that in October this year instead. It's been brilliant to get out and shake some of the cobwebbs from under the baseplate, together with the reasurance following the Australian lady incident that I'm not as mad as I initially thought. Or, could it be that I'm simply in good company?

 

Silted up outside The Sun Trevor pub which boasts the attendance of one Harrison Ford, we are preparing to venture along the final stretch to Llangollen Basin and that little fairground train. Chrissie can't wait!

Grounding one's craft on the transit of the Llangollen is a positive way to reduce the number of freshwater molluscs squatting on one's underside

 

Yes, I agree and hope to be barnacle free by the time that we return to deeper waters. We started the trip with a 15mm baseplate but fear that it might just be down to 10mm now!

I know some people that went all the way to Llangollen last year and their boat draws just under 3 foot. Took them a week to get there though!

 

Hi Dave,

 

PM due anytime soon!

 

We've spotted nb Sweden on our travels and wonder what she draws?

 

Loving it all the same.

 

Mike

Hiya Mike

I would be very surprised if your draft isnt a tad deeper than 2,5 , I know mine is .

 

P.s Hope the trip is going ok , we are due up that way at the start of October.

 

Mornin Stan,

 

I suspect that when Chrissie joins me at the helm, accompanied by her purse, our draft increases substantially! Good move to come down here in October when hopefully sanity returns to this lovely route. We thought that by leaving it until now we'd miss all of the manic movements associated with this popular canal. I've tried to be as tolerant as possible with the hire boaters but some of the muppetry that we've witnessed is beyond belief.

 

I know that we all have to learn at some point but it helps when you bring your brain along with the trip!

[nicknorman]

Hi Nick,

 

I recall you using the weed hatch technique to measure your true draft and used it myself, recording an initial draft of 27" or 2'3" in old money. But with the addition of four Trojan 225amp/hour batteries weighing in at 55kilos and our chest freezer at the stern, we now sink to 2'5" and as you say, that is whilst statonary.

 

Interesting, I had presumed all Steve's boats would draw the same, despite the comments in the brochure about differing drafts according to vintage engine/boatman's cabin, or modern engine at the back. Maybe our boat was built as the former before Steve realised we were having the latter? Anyway, with a paltry 2' 5" draft you should have no problem getting to Llangollen since we did it with 3" more and we only had to rearrange the canal bottom slightly!

[fretman]

The draft of a boat is determined by the builder when he builds it, I/e from bottom of counter to top of skeg,,

 

What you are talking about is the draw of your boats , which can be anything as all people load there boats with all sorts of things,, so from the water line to the bottom of skeg can be anything, if you put your gold deplumes in the back it will be deeper, more gold more deeper.

 

Then you have the fact it will pull down depending on how much power you put on.

 

That's why draft is in the specification, which the builder can determine to obtain the specification

 

That should bring a big response

 

 

 

daft is now draft,, sorry folks

Edited September 11, 2013 by fretman

[nicknorman]

The daft of a boat is determined by the builder when he builds it, I/e from bottom of counter to top of skeg,,

 

What you are talking about is the draw of your boats , which can be anything as all people load there boats with all sorts of things,, so from the water line to the bottom of skeg can be anything, if you put your gold deplumes in the back it will be deeper, more gold more deeper.

 

Then you have the fact it will pull down depending on how much power you put on.

 

That's why daft is in the specification, which the builder can determine to obtain the specification

 

That should bring a big response

You said daft - twice! But presuming you meant draft, I can't say what the nautical definition of draft vs draw is, but what I am talking about is how far below the water is the lowest point of the boat. Yes, of course it varies according to load / ballast. But assuming a sensibly ballasted modern leisure narrowboat, the counter should I believe be around 2" below the waterline. Thus the distance from waterline to skeg is defined by the builder ie the height from the counter to the skeg, plus the 2" or so. Of course this changes under way, that's why is best to go through very shallow waters at tickover or even neutral.

[DHutch]

We went up to the end at the end of 2011 (circa 2ft 8-9ish) and have to admit we didnt have a lot of trouble, although we did have to flush through New Marton which is a known issue due to design of the bywash exit.

 

The last section from Trevor onward has some concrete in it near the start that most can run aground on, and then becomes narrow making the flow even more pronounced, but we did it of an evening and without traffic and had no real issues.

 

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The daft of a boat is determined by the builder when he builds it, I/e from bottom of counter to top of skeg,,

 

What you are talking about is the draw of your boats....

The internet is, inconclusive, but certainly appears to find draft as suitable established term to be used for the amount of wet required, if not also partially supporting your comments... and introducing another spelling.

 

 

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/

Draft: No mention of boats at all.

Draw: 8(of a ship) require (a specified depth of water) to float in:

boats that draw only a few inches of water

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/

Draft:

9: the depth of water a ship draws especially when loaded

Draw:

6: to require (a specified depth) to float in <a ship that draws 12 feet of water>

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_(hull)

Draft (hull), distance from waterline to keel. The draft (or draught) of a ship's hull is the vertical distance between the waterline and the bottom of the hull (keel), with the thickness of the hull included; in the case of not being included the draft outline would be obtained. Draft determines the minimum depth of water a ship or boat can safely navigate. The draft can also be used to determine the weight of the cargo on board by calculating the total displacement of water and then using Archimedes' principle.

 

 

Daniel

[craftycarper]

we have also had a lovely dry summer for the first time in a fair few years, were as the last few have been very wet indeed which may add or subtract an inch or two to the level and explain why everyone else is saying it was fine when i went up there, just a thought.

[DHutch]

Although as far as I know the LLangollen is pretty much fixed flow, supplying Hurleston, increasing overnight.

 

 

Daniel

[luctor et emergo]

 

Yes, they probably did Luctor and I appreciate the difficulty in digging out this canal in the first place, but why not go the extra mile and cut it that much deeper?

Because digging it even an inch deeper than neccessary adds massively to the work, and cost. Remember, these canals were dug by hand. Everything was carefully calculated. I'm sure the boaters would have liked an extra foot below the floor, but the Duke wasn't going to pay for that..

 

That is why in the carrying days, dredgers were employed. Cart might want to look up the definition of dredging...

[Timleech]

We went up to the end at the end of 2011 (circa 2ft 8-9ish) and have to admit we didnt have a lot of trouble, although we did have to flush through New Marton which is a known issue due to design of the bywash exit.

 

The last section from Trevor onward has some concrete in it near the start that most can run aground on, and then becomes narrow making the flow even more pronounced, but we did it of an evening and without traffic and had no real issues.

 

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The internet is, inconclusive, but certainly appears to find draft as suitable established term to be used for the amount of wet required, if not also partially supporting your comments... and introducing another spelling.

 

 

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/

Draft: No mention of boats at all.

Draw: 8(of a ship) require (a specified depth of water) to float in:

boats that draw only a few inches of water

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/

Draft:

9: the depth of water a ship draws especially when loaded

Draw:

6: to require (a specified depth) to float in <a ship that draws 12 feet of water>

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_(hull)

Draft (hull), distance from waterline to keel. The draft (or draught) of a ship's hull is the vertical distance between the waterline and the bottom of the hull (keel), with the thickness of the hull included; in the case of not being included the draft outline would be obtained. Draft determines the minimum depth of water a ship or boat can safely navigate. The draft can also be used to determine the weight of the cargo on board by calculating the total displacement of water and then using Archimedes' principle.

 

 

Daniel

 

Draught is what I have always taken as the usual UK spelling, with draft as an alternative (and probably usual in the USA).

 

I thought draught and draw were just different parts of speech, as in:-

 

My boat has a draught of 2'6"

My boat draws 2'6"

but I've never looked them up in a dictionary!

 

(Might do just that in a minute)

 

Edit after looking in my Chambers 20th century dictionary (OK, it's the 21st now so it must be out of date!):-

 

Draught is among many other things "the depth to which a ship sinks in the water", and Draft is not given as an alternative to this meaning though it is to some of the other meanings

Draw is " to require a depth of water for floating", among many, many other things.

 

Tim

Edited September 11, 2013 by Timleech

[Doorman]

Interesting, I had presumed all Steve's boats would draw the same, despite the comments in the brochure about differing drafts according to vintage engine/boatman's cabin, or modern engine at the back. Maybe our boat was built as the former before Steve realised we were having the latter? Anyway, with a paltry 2' 5" draft you should have no problem getting to Llangollen since we did it with 3" more and we only had to rearrange the canal bottom slightly!

 

Hi Nick,

 

upon checking our hull details in the Declaration of Conformity documents that came with the boat, it does indeed indicate a design draught of 27" which is what i measured as commented previously.

Although as far as I know the LLangollen is pretty much fixed flow, supplying Hurleston, increasing overnight.

 

 

Daniel

 

Locals here claim that the flow is at its maximum of a morning when the operatives adjust it at the valve house.

Because digging it even an inch deeper than neccessary adds massively to the work, and cost. Remember, these canals were dug by hand. Everything was carefully calculated. I'm sure the boaters would have liked an extra foot below the floor, but the Duke wasn't going to pay for that..

 

That is why in the carrying days, dredgers were employed. Cart might want to look up the definition of dredging...

 

Yes Luctor that explanation would carry some weight given the arduous task of digging this ditch out of rocks and as you say a regular dredging schedule wouldn't go amiss, especially given the volume of traffic along here.

[Doorman]

These two deep draughted boats snuggling up beside us in the basin. The Stuarts Lloyd delighful tug weighing in at 3 foot and his friend's boat at 2' 9"

 

 

 

My only conclusion is that I've left our Sea Searcher magnet in the bilges and the rocks on the bottom are of ferrous content!

 

It is no coincidence that the private boats seek refuge in this far corner of the basin. Yesterday morning saw the departure of a gang of blokes beginning their return journey back to wherever their hire base is, still pissed from the night before!

Edited September 12, 2013 by Doorman

[by'eck]

 

Hi Nick,

 

upon checking our hull details in the Declaration of Conformity documents that came with the boat, it does indeed indicate a design draught of 27" which is what i measured as commented previously.

 

I think Steve must put that figure in all his manuals since I have the same. Measured draught using Nick's method the other day at 31" although it could be an inch more since I had to feel the bottom of skeg with tape measure. This is going to vary an inch or so anyway depending on fuel and poop in tanks.

 

Would like to try the Llangollen someday but not looking too good given your comments. Have managed the Macclesfield and Erewash though without too much difficulty apart from slow speed - can you or anyone else offer comparisons depth wise.

[Doorman]

I think Steve must put that figure in all his manuals since I have the same. Measured draught using Nick's method the other day at 31" although it could be an inch more since I had to feel the bottom of skeg with tape measure. This is going to vary an inch or so anyway depending on fuel and poop in tanks.

 

Would like to try the Llangollen someday but not looking too good given your comments. Have managed the Macclesfield and Erewash though without too much difficulty apart from slow speed - can you or anyone else offer comparisons depth wise.

I think you're right Richard, he probably uses a template that his engineer alters - or should alter - accordingly. I would imagine that your draught would be about 31" given the proper engine on board.

 

On our return journey we have had a smoother ride, albeit stuck fast near some moored boats opposite an overhanging tree. Why do some boaters insist on doing this or mooring on tight bends? Many other boaters have commented on the shallowness of this lovely canal and we met a guy on a splendid RW Davis boat today at Ellesmere who was concerned about going up to Llangollen. Given that we've passed two ex-working boats between Trevor and Llangollen, together with the three foot draughted Stuarts Lloyds tug boat, I wouldn't put off cruising all the way up to the basin. The views are absolutely stunning and not to be missed, nor is the entertainment at Trevor!

 

All in all, we've both enjoyed our journey so far, even though whilst passing through the cuttings just after Chirk, a branch of an overhanging tree fell and just missed Mrs Doorman's shoulder by 10 inches, hitting her right in the middle of her head! And we've only lost our Internet connection in one place, Wales.

 

We shall return soon I hope!

[nicknorman]

 

Would like to try the Llangollen someday but not looking too good given your comments.

Well we did it last year with only minor difficulty, mr &mrs Doorman have just done it with only a minor battle with a tree and gravity (and that wouldn't have been a problem had it not been for Mr Newton), so you have no excuse not to!

[DHutch]

Locals here claim that the flow is at its maximum of a morning when the operatives adjust it at the valve house.

Cant claim to be local as such, but its certainly the morning then it drops again that you notice how high its been overnight.

 

Having gone from two foot out, to 6inchs from the bank overnight, your then hard on at at 10degrees to level!

 

 

Daniel