Narrow Boat Hit By Trip Boat On Tidal Thames

[Guest]

"Back then" was only 1989 and your experience may be different but I was having no problems obtaining strong ales in the 80s even in London (where admittedly they had to import decent beer from up North).

We don't know what he was or wasn't drinking though, my point that it's an individual thing stands.

 

We were taught this by an ex police officer when our trust went down the route of introducing potential breath testing of staff we suspected of being under the influence whilst at work so I believe it to be correct.

[Ray]

As a now almost ex Tier 1 Boatmaster - the licence expires next Wednesday and I'm 65 on Friday so can't be bothered to face the annual medical - I am only too aware of the restricted visibility in front of a (canal) trip boat, let alone the sides. Can I suggest that you try standing at the stern of your narrowboat and see how much in front of the bow you can't see - think canoe in water ahead. And how much can you see down the port side of your narrowboat when you're checking the starboard side? The same applies to cruisers especially when steering from the inside cabin rather than a flying bridge where visibility to the side close to the boat is as poor as it is to the front of a narrowboat.

 

No vessel of any significant size - large row boat upwards - is going to have a permanent good all round visibility. What is more critical is to keep your attention focussed on where your boat is going so that the only thing that could surprise you is a boat approaching from the rear and this can be mitigated by frequent but brief checks astern - something that many narrowboaters find difficult to do.

 

And please let us remember that BMLs only came about because of the Marchioness tragedy.

[Ange]

Just a point about your earlier comments abut the Boatmasters licence and the master of Bowbelle. He didn't hold a Boatmasters certificate, but as far as I remember he held a Class 1 certificate (master mariner). This in no way want to excuse the fact that to drink 5 pints of ager in the afternoon before sailing in the evening which in my opinion is asking for trouble. One other point about this incident which is relevant to the limited visibility mentioned by Tim; the court of enquiry were unhappy about the limited visibility from the wheelhouse of some trip boats on the Thames, including Marchioness.

 

Howard

 

 

 

And please let us remember that BMLs only came about because of the Marchioness tragedy.

Thanks for that info Howard and Ray - it's good to have a better understanding. At least some good came out of the tragedy.

[howardang]

As a now almost ex Tier 1 Boatmaster - the licence expires next Wednesday and I'm 65 on Friday so can't be bothered to face the annual medical - I am only too aware of the restricted visibility in front of a (canal) trip boat, let alone the sides. Can I suggest that you try standing at the stern of your narrowboat and see how much in front of the bow you can't see - think canoe in water ahead. And how much can you see down the port side of your narrowboat when you're checking the starboard side? The same applies to cruisers especially when steering from the inside cabin rather than a flying bridge where visibility to the side close to the boat is as poor as it is to the front of a narrowboat.

No vessel of any significant size - large row boat upwards - is going to have a permanent good all round visibility. What is more critical is to keep your attention focussed on where your boat is going so that the only thing that could surprise you is a boat approaching from the rear and this can be mitigated by frequent but brief checks astern - something that many narrowboaters find difficult to do.

And please let us remember that BMLs only came about because of the Marchioness tragedy.[/quote

 

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that overall, all round visibility is always possible, although there are many vessels that do have it. What I do believe and as a boat master you will, I am sure, agree with me that it is the masters responsibility to ensure that such limitations are overcome. In the case of limited visibility by using a crew member as a lookout, for example. I don't think a court of enquiry would be happy with the explanation of a collision is bad visibility from the wheelhouse or other steering position if no effort had been made to compensate for it.

Howard

Edited July 27, 2013 by howardang

[Naughty Cal]

Mine has.

 

So you can keep a full 360 degree watch all on you own?

 

Just how do you manage that?

[Guest]

So you can keep a full 360 degree watch all on you own?

 

Just how do you manage that?

 

??

 

[magnetman]

Hey Tim

 

I can see where you're coming from but I still want to know the full facts before we make assumptions. If the NB did sneak alongside the big boat and then cut in front of it that's a very different matter to if the big boat just steamed into the NB - we just don't know which is true.

 

Good to hear the tightening up of the boatmasters licences - I was shocked that the captain could admit to having drank five pints of lager and still keep his. Having had the pleasure of travelling on the Princess I've witnessed firsthand your sobriety while we were downing our beers

 

I wonder if we'll ever get the full story on this?

I imagine there will be a MAIB report in due course - at least I would hope so !

[fudd]

So you can keep a full 360 degree watch all on you own?

 

Just how do you manage that?

I'm not on my own!

[Ray]

I'm not on my own!

I'd hazard to suggest that to consistently achieve a good all-round - i.e. 360º - visibility on a narrowboat you would need one person at the bow looking forward, one doing similar (but looking backwards) from the stern and one looking each side (of whom one could be the steerer). You'd then need at least one extra person unless you moor up every so often for the lookouts to take comfort breaks.

 

A good steerer of any craft has a sufficient idea of what is going on around them and their boat such that apart from more precise movements no further lookout should be necessary.

 

From a recent trip on one of the Thames Clippers I gather there is normally a crew of three (plus the catering staff). Two are concerned with assisting boarding and alighting and the other steering. I was told that there are cameras all around the boat. Like others I suspect, I have assumed that last week's incident was the front of the bigger vessel tail ending the stern of the smaller vessel. I presume it may also have been a case of the bigger vessel's stern clipping the rear of the narrowboat as the bigger vessel swung or briefly reversed away from one of their stopping spots.

 

There is of course always the chance that either vessel was making a sudden but necessary emergency manoeuvre to avoid a third vessel or other object (probably) in the water and, in the process of doing so momentarily forgot the presence of the vessel with which the collision occurred.

 

As has been said above (and is frequently said in conjunction with railway accidents), let's not jump to too many conclusions until the full story is known. In many rail accidents the conclusion is all but a foregone conclusion based on the aftermath, location and witness reports. I'm not aware that we have the benefit of most if not any of these in relation to the river incident.

 

We can but hope that lessons are learned from the incident, steps will be taken to minimise the risk of a repeat incident and, more importantly, the MCA don't put even tighter screws on canal (and small river) trip boat operators that will put many more out of business because of a need to meet totally irrelevant requirements on a canal e.g. (but only one small example) the need for a canal trip boat to have all life rings clearly marked with the boats name when they're the only trip boat for miles and much of the canal is shallow enough for persons in the water to stand up in. Another example (which comes for free!) is an expectation in a person overboard incident to reverse the craft towards the person in the water (presumably because it is realised that it is normally impossible to turn the craft around). There's no way that I would take a revolving propeller anywhere near a person in the water.

[fudd]

I'd hazard to suggest that to consistently achieve a good all-round - i.e. 360º - visibility on a narrowboat you would need one person at the bow looking forward, one doing similar (but looking backwards) from the stern and one looking each side (of whom one could be the steerer). You'd then need at least one extra person unless you moor up every so often for the lookouts to take comfort breaks.

 

A good steerer of any craft has a sufficient idea of what is going on around them and their boat such that apart from more precise movements no further lookout should be necessary.

 

From a recent trip on one of the Thames Clippers I gather there is normally a crew of three (plus the catering staff). Two are concerned with assisting boarding and alighting and the other steering. I was told that there are cameras all around the boat. Like others I suspect, I have assumed that last week's incident was the front of the bigger vessel tail ending the stern of the smaller vessel. I presume it may also have been a case of the bigger vessel's stern clipping the rear of the narrowboat as the bigger vessel swung or briefly reversed away from one of their stopping spots.

 

There is of course always the chance that either vessel was making a sudden but necessary emergency manoeuvre to avoid a third vessel or other object (probably) in the water and, in the process of doing so momentarily forgot the presence of the vessel with which the collision occurred.

 

As has been said above (and is frequently said in conjunction with railway accidents), let's not jump to too many conclusions until the full story is known. In many rail accidents the conclusion is all but a foregone conclusion based on the aftermath, location and witness reports. I'm not aware that we have the benefit of most if not any of these in relation to the river incident.

 

We can but hope that lessons are learned from the incident, steps will be taken to minimise the risk of a repeat incident and, more importantly, the MCA don't put even tighter screws on canal (and small river) trip boat operators that will put many more out of business because of a need to meet totally irrelevant requirements on a canal e.g. (but only one small example) the need for a canal trip boat to have all life rings clearly marked with the boats name when they're the only trip boat for miles and much of the canal is shallow enough for persons in the water to stand up in. Another example (which comes for free!) is an expectation in a person overboard incident to reverse the craft towards the person in the water (presumably because it is realised that it is normally impossible to turn the craft around). There's no way that I would take a revolving propeller anywhere near a person in the water.

M

Hello Ray.

My answer was directed at Phylis, who said very few boats have clear 360 degrees view at the helm. Mine has, meaning 'no blind spots' and so has nearly every other narrowboat on the inland waterways.

Why on earth would anyone, even on the tidal Thames need four people on look out on a narrowboat. I had 180 degrees and so had my partner. It's easy enough to look behind you. I had no mirrors on my motorbike but I could still look behind me.

Edited July 28, 2013 by fudd

[Doorman]

 

We have the additional benefit of a dog on board but he only barks if the approaching boat has another dog on it.

 

So does our Paddy, yet he's inside the boat without having any sight of what or who's approaching.

[Scholar Gypsy]

M

Hello Ray.

My answer was directed at Phylis, who said very few boats have clear 360 degrees view at the helm. Mine has, meaning 'no blind spots' and so has nearly every other narrowboat on the inland waterways.

Why on earth would anyone, even on the tidal Thames need four people on look out on a narrowboat. I had 180 degrees and so had my partner. It's easy enough to look behind you. I had no mirrors on my motorbike but I could still look behind me.

 

I think the point others are making - and I would agree - is that even with a standard NB steering position, out in the open, it is quite feasible to not be able to see a canoe, or a swimmer, ten feet (say) dead ahead of your bow.

 

That's unlikely to be a problem in most circumstances, whether on a canal, river, or a tideway -- for example if one is catching up a slow canoe, then you will be able to see them before they disappear into the blind slot -- but I do believe it is a risk that needs to be kept in mind.

[blackrose]

So you can keep a full 360 degree watch all on you own?

 

Just how do you manage that?

 

I've been from Limehouse to Teddington on my own and managed to keep a 360 degree watch. I've got something called "a neck" which allows my head to turn around a 180 degree arc on my soulders. The rest of my body isn't actually fixed to the boat and this allows me to turn around every few minutes to check if there's anything approaching from behind.

 

A "watch" doesn't mean one needs to keep a constant 360 degree view every second! Even with crew you probably wouldn't actually do that.

[fudd]

 

I've been from Limehouse to Teddington on my own and managed to keep a 360 degree watch. I've got something called "a neck" which allows my head to turn around a 180 degree arc on my soulders. The rest of my body isn't actually fixed to the boat and this allows me to turn around every few minutes to check if there's anything approaching from behind.

 

A "watch" doesn't mean one needs to keep a constant 360 degree view every second! Even with crew you probably wouldn't actually do that.

 

A point I was trying to make Mike. I think Phylis was trying to catch me out.

[Grace and Favour]

Please do so. i welcome anyone from the forum, all that i ask is that you pm me first as to when I am working and you would like to come along and I will endeavour to get you onboard and ill buy you a beer. Also come into the wheelhouse and get it from our perspective, it can only help to enhance anyones view and experience in their boating.

 

Tim

And Jo and I will certainly take you up on this offer, Tim...........will be back your way in August

[howardang]

A point I was trying to make Mike. I think Phylis was trying to catch me out.

If Phyllis was serious ( and I suspect she was actually trying to wind you up) she doesn't seem to grasp the concept of keeping an adequate lookout, any more than she seems to understand the term "moderate speed"

 

Howard

[Radiomariner]

I bought a Cobra HH475. Bit over the top really but I liked it. Can link up with your phone via blue tooth. And it floats so if you drop it in the tidal Thames you can go back and get it.

Turning around to look for the dropped VHF could create in interesting scenario on the tidal Thames!

 

Many many boats and ships ( In maritime law we are classed as a ship ) have blind spots all around them. I would never turn the boat without a crew member checking either side for me before doing so. The problem here often is that pleasure boaters have no more idea than the man in the moon about our job. Keeping an " Adequate lookout " means just that, it has no bearing on the view of one man from one steering position. Next time you are parked in your car in a car park get a friend to stand about four feet out from the car on the offside just behind the front door pillar then look in your rearview mirror and your righthand mirror and you will not see them. This is known as the " Blind spot " many road accidents on dual carriageways and motorways are caused by idiots who check their main mirror and even their right hand mirror then pull out straight into a thing as big as a car that they have not even seen in their blind spot and that is in a car with nearly 360 deg visibility.

Try standing on the bridge of an oil tanker and see what view the Skipper gets.

 

Tim

Peep at my avatar and imagine what the Master sees from the bridge even when looking forward! A Narrowboat going the same direction 2 miles ahead would look like a bit of flotsam one mile ahead it is out of sight!

 

My views on the original subject.? As mentioned Colregs puts the responsibility on the overtaking vessel. Road traffic is similar, If a car crashes into your car from behind, it is inevitably the fault of the driver of the car behind. Of course, there are, in both cases exceptions to the rule.

[Guest]

Turning around to look for the dropped VHF could create in interesting scenario on the tidal Thames!

 

Peep at my avatar and imagine what the Master sees from the bridge even when looking forward! A Narrowboat going the same direction 2 miles ahead would look like a bit of flotsam one mile ahead it is out of sight!

 

My views on the original subject.? As mentioned Colregs puts the responsibility on the overtaking vessel. Road traffic is similar, If a car crashes into your car from behind, it is inevitably the fault of the driver of the car behind. Of course, there are, in both cases exceptions to the rule.

 

Don't you guys also have radar to assist (genuine question because i don't know) - that would give you an advantage over what a river trip boat would have though?

 

(though I am sure their must be some river trip boats that have it too)

Edited July 28, 2013 by The Dog House

[fudd]

If Phyllis was serious ( and I suspect she was actually trying to wind you up) she doesn't seem to grasp the concept of keeping an adequate lookout, any more than she seems to understand the term "moderate speed"

 

Howard

I know, I wasn't being too serious myself.

Seve P

[Naughty Cal]

M

Hello Ray.

My answer was directed at Phylis, who said very few boats have clear 360 degrees view at the helm. Mine has, meaning 'no blind spots' and so has nearly every other narrowboat on the inland waterways.

Why on earth would anyone, even on the tidal Thames need four people on look out on a narrowboat. I had 180 degrees and so had my partner. It's easy enough to look behind you. I had no mirrors on my motorbike but I could still look behind me.

Ray can I suggest you actually take another look at your visibility.

[Naughty Cal]

Here is the view from NC's helm. You can not see what is happening in the water directly ahead. A careful watch is needed

 

[blackrose]

Here's a view from the helm of Black Rose. You can not see what is happening in the water directly ahead. A careful watch is needed on most boats.

 

[bizzard]

Whats wrong with a traditional Crows-nest to look out from. An old beer barrel on the deck or lashed to a bit of a mast, the higher the better, would do the trick.

[Naughty Cal]

Here's a view from the helm of Black Rose. You can not see what is happening in the water directly ahead. A careful watch is needed on most boats.

 

However some are claiming clear 360 degree vision which is clearly unachievable on anything much bigger than a dinghy!

[bizzard]

Whats wrong with a traditional Crows-nest to look out from. An old beer barrel on the deck or lashed to a bit of a mast, the higher the better, would do the trick.

And if a gramophone turntable was incorporated into the bottom of the barrel for the lookout to stand on ''electric or windup'' this would rotate the lookout person automatically at an appropriate speed according to the current weather and visibility conditions. For example. 16rpm excellent visibility. 33.1/3 fair visibility. 45rpm bad vis. 78rpm very poor and thick fog.