Biodiesel

[tove]

Does anyone here make their own biodiesel? (such as using a processor to convert from chip fat)

Does it even work in boat engines?

Many thanks.

[bigste]

Does it even work in boat engines?

There is no difference. A diesel engine is a diesel engine is a diesel engine.

[Pete & Helen]

Doubt anyone would admit to making their own in case the tax man is reading the forum (unless they are paying tax as well) Just keep your nose in the air and when a boat goes past smelling like a chip shop, ask them.

[Chalky]

Does it even work in boat engines?

There is no difference. A diesel engine is a diesel engine is a diesel engine.

 

However injectors and pumps are different - some will work ok with bio diesel and other will have their seals wrecked and others will seize due to poor lubrication.

[SamKingfisher]

Been there, done that. Short answer would be don't bother.

[Rich]

Doubt anyone would admit to making their own in case the tax man is reading the forum (unless they are paying tax as well) Just keep your nose in the air and when a boat goes past smelling like a chip shop, ask them.

 

4.2.1 Exempt producers/users

If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:

• any biofuel, or
• any other fuel substitute or additive

within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with us and account for duty. However, there are simple record keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.

Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.

According to HMRC website - http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P219_26139

[tove]

Does it even work in boat engines?

There is no difference. A diesel engine is a diesel engine is a diesel engine.

Well that's what I always thought until boaters started telling me otherwise and I've yet to meet someone who actually does it. I know you can get some quite good processing kits nowadays which cost a bit but which would repay over time, I was wondering if any boaters used them.

Been there, done that. Short answer would be don't bother.

Do you mind me asking why and what processing system you were using?

[bag 'o' bones]

Will it work in a boat engine? Yes as long as it has a mechanical fuel pump (which is the majority of canal boats) Try a low concentration first.

Will it work neat? Not really, bit too thick - hence the reports of damaged seals.

Will it work 50/50 mixed with ordinary diesel? Perfectly.

How do you 'process' it? You need an old pair of jeans or one of those filter bags sold on e-bay to get rid of the food particles. Plenty of time and somewhere you don't mind getting greasy. Some say you need to boil off the water content, but in practice its not really necessary if you have a water trap.

Will it work in winter? Depends on the concentration. More veg oil the more thinker it becomes in cold weather. Probally not a good idea to leave it in your tank for long if you don't use the boat for long periods (Fuel bug problems)

Is it legal? Yes. See above.

Anything else? Its a good idea to use fuel injector cleaner on a regularly and to clean/replace the engine fuel filter on a regular basis. Also good idea to raise the engine revs above tick over whenever you can. Also run the engine on 'clean' diesel once in a while.

Lastly, is it really worth it? Debatable. The veg oil needs to be either free or very cheap (20p litre or less) for the amount of time/grief/ mess it will inevitably cause you.

[Jerra]

Will it work in a boat engine? Yes as long as it has a mechanical fuel pump (which is the majority of canal boats) Try a low concentration first.

Will it work neat? Not really, bit too thick - hence the reports of damaged seals.

Will it work 50/50 mixed with ordinary diesel? Perfectly.

How do you 'process' it? You need an old pair of jeans or one of those filter bags sold on e-bay to get rid of the food particles. Plenty of time and somewhere you don't mind getting greasy. Some say you need to boil off the water content, but in practice its not really necessary if you have a water trap.

Will it work in winter? Depends on the concentration. More veg oil the more thinker it becomes in cold weather. Probally not a good idea to leave it in your tank for long if you don't use the boat for long periods (Fuel bug problems)

Is it legal? Yes. See above.

Anything else? Its a good idea to use fuel injector cleaner on a regularly and to clean/replace the engine fuel filter on a regular basis. Also good idea to raise the engine revs above tick over whenever you can. Also run the engine on 'clean' diesel once in a while.

Lastly, is it really worth it? Debatable. The veg oil needs to be either free or very cheap (20p litre or less) for the amount of time/grief/ mess it will inevitably cause you.

You appear to be talking about using "pure" used cooking oil. The OP is asking about processing oil to make biodiesel.

 

I have a friend who has run up to 3 cars at a time totally on home produced biodiesel with no problem what ever. I used to make it when I ran an old convoy minibus. Its a long time since I made any but if I remember rightly the process was take the old veg oil and put it in the processor tank. Mix methanol and caustic soda (the dodgy bit of the process) heat the oil and add the methanol mix. Airate for about an hour (using a cheap fish tank air pump). Leave to settle drain "gunk" from the bottom (it is clearly visible) and pour on compost heap. Wash the biodiesel (there is a water spray built into the equipment) leave to settle drain water of and Robert is your father's brother.

 

That is a very rough account from memory over a number of years. If you want to know more PM me and I will get in touch with my friend for a more detailed account.

 

P.S. It is legal my mate checked with the authorities before he started.

[Arthur Brown]

It's lawful under 2500 litres per year as above. You need space to have the process. Most difficult is that you need a supply of LOTS of cheap used food oil. My local area has three or four collection vans touring the chip shops etc. All waste collection vehicles need waste transfer licences. If you collect enough then you will need ADR. The necessary Methanol is ADR LQ zero so delivery is sometimes problematic.

 

Getting a good supply of oil is the hardest bit. There will be waste from when you filter it and process it.

 

The worst issue is that some systems find the gaskets, seals and O rings swelling and degrading they may well leak. Some modern engines actually say No Biodiesel in the instructions.

 

I may have a supplier of A "Waste" brand new veg oil in Humberside But it's in such big quantities that they prefer to send a truck full of IBCs or a tanker lorry so there goes your 2500l allowance for a start.

[jake_crew]

Used cooking oil has a high acid content, which you kill off with the correct amount of sodium hydroxide.

 

You need to check the pH of the mix after you've added the NaOH.

 

Buying the methanol and sodium hydroxide in industrial quantities isn't cheap and all but negates the money saved in getting the raw feed stock free,

[peterboat]

Hi I have a garage where we repair Jaguar cars a large amount of these are diesels, and in our experience since bio has been added to diesel the problems of these high speed diesels has increased to the point that the repairs are more than the savings! And it is getting worse not better as the fuel economy is not that much better. Boats I dont know about but I can say that the smell of my exhaust has changed over the last few years

 

Peter

[lynalldisocvery]

Used to use new beg oil in my land rovers years ago, once above 50/50 mix with diesel the car lost power, stunk like a chip shop, only certain inj pumps can handle it, the cav type on old land rovers are a no no.

In the end the price went up and if you look, it is always just above the current derv price.

Never tried making my own, just looks to much hassle and mess to be worth it.

The trucks i work on say only use bio up to a certain percentage, some that run on it are always suffering from blocked and collapsed fuel filters.

 

 

Lynall

[Doorman]

Interesting topic.

 

All of these problems encountered here in Britain don't appear to affect Brazil in their quest to become the world's leading producer of renewable energy in bio-diesel. I once met a Brazilian chap at the locks in Rufford on the L&L, who commented that due to the continuing stranglehold of the Middle Eastern oil giants, Brazil had made a concerted effort to produce its own fuel and be free from external influence.

 

Wise people in Brazil.

[lynalldisocvery]

We are dependant, its just we sell all ours abroad!

Thinking north sea gas.

 

 

 

Lynall

[Grace and Favour]

Interesting topic.

 

All of these problems encountered here in Britain don't appear to affect Brazil in their quest to become the world's leading producer of renewable energy in bio-diesel. I once met a Brazilian chap at the locks in Rufford on the L&L, who commented that due to the continuing stranglehold of the Middle Eastern oil giants, Brazil had made a concerted effort to produce its own fuel and be free from external influence.

 

Wise people in Brazil.

And are desecrating the rain forest in order to do so.....

[Doorman]

And are desecrating the rain forest in order to do so.....

Quite so,

 

But the Brazilians are still waiting for payment from the rest of the world for helping produce our oxygen supplies. Whereas in producing biodiesel, they will see a return on their investment and hopefully not hold the consumers of this product to ransom, as in the Middle-East.

 

Hopefully, the planting of crops to manufacture biodiesel will kinder to our planet and the rest of the world will plant trees to make up the shortfall created through deforestation.

[Ashleyj]

At least 50% of the world's oxygen supply is produced by phytoplankton in the oceans. That coupled with the oxygen produced by all the trees etc. in all the other countries in the world other than Brazil mean that, contarary to popular belief, the Brazilian rainforest is not the main source - probably less than 20%.

Quite so,

But the Brazilians are still waiting for payment from the rest of the world for helping produce our oxygen supplies. Whereas in producing biodiesel, they will see a return on their investment and hopefully not hold the consumers of this product to ransom, as in the Middle-East.

Hopefully, the planting of crops to manufacture biodiesel will kinder to our planet and the rest of the world will plant trees to make up the shortfall created through deforestation.

[Doorman]

At least 50% of the world's oxygen supply is produced by phytoplankton in the oceans.

Interesting.

 

Let's hope the Brazilians don't realise that and start producing biodiesel from sea water then.

 

But back to my main point regarding the suggested adverse reaction from biodiesel use in Britain. If the Brazilians have overcome these issues then why can't we?

[Ships Cat]

Almost all diesel engines (car) will run on WVO (waste veg oil), particularly Mercs as Rudolph Diesel said when he sold his engine patent to Merc that they must. Modern ones need a bit of tweaking via the computer.

 

Rotary fuel pumps (CAV for eg) suffer with the high viscosity of veg oil. In line pumps (Bosch, for eg) work better.

 

Lots to consider:

 

In winter, it goes like glue. Car owners look round scrappies for those old Pug diesels that had tank heaters and use those. You need to find a way of preheating the oil, OR run a twin tank system where you have a small tank for diesel and use it just before you stop to prime the system with diesel and then when the engine is up to temp, you switch to SVO.

 

Making SVO good for engines isn't difficult. This is the simplest way. Other slightly different ways are available.

 

You need filters to shift the bits of batter out etc, given that the best oil is the stuff that's free. 5 micron gravity and a 2 micron pumped would do.

 

Then you have to titrate the oil to make an ester of oil. You add enough sodium/potassium hydroxide (more later about that) or caustic soda to get the right pH. Now the mix should flush pink as it mixes and when it does, it's the right ph, so you use a 100l container, take 100mls off and see how much caustic you need to make that one flush - and scale up for the rest.

 

You put it into a container that has a pointy bottom and a tap at the bottom and leave overnight.

 

Next day, you have a container with clearish liquid at the bottom - this is almost pure glycerine, which can be poured down a drain quite safely or you can make soap with it. If you used potassium/sodium hydroxide you can compost it too! But caustic soda is cheaper and more accessible. Tap it off.

 

The stuff in the top is an ester of veg oil. You now need to dry it - stick it into a 45 gal wort bin on a heating mat and leave it overnight to steam the water out.

 

Job done - decant into a jerry can and away you go.

 

2500 litres is quite a lot and they'd have to measure it - just how you imagine Caesar's Men manage so many low home producers, I have no idea - I can't imagine they can!

 

You could do it on the deck of a boat, just. There are kits available online. You could make one, Dick Strawbridge did on his It's Not Easy Being Green programme a few years ago in his shed.

 

You can get the auto switching over for the different fuels too, but you must think cars. No-one's done it for boats, AFAIK.

 

BTW, you may need ID to buy Caustic Soda in quantity - it's used to cut drugs. I use a lot of bicarb and have to sometimes, depends where I get it from but usually it's owt over a kilo.

 

Old engines are quite happy on veg - they run quieter and some people find better MPG, some slightly worse. Either way, if you can get it free, the outlay for the kit is the biggest expense.

 

Add caustic soda to the oil, not the other way round. Ever.

 

Invest in a few spare fuel filters. They do bung up. Some put a slosh of methanol in the mix too to help it go bang.

 

We can't grow enough rape to keep all Britain's engines turning in this way but small scale producers can save HODS of money.

 

http://www.fenlandbiodieselprocessors.com/ For info. This sort of thing!

 

Also, nearly forgot to say: hoses. Only polyurethane will do. Anything else will be eaten.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Ships Cat

[ditchcrawler]

We are dependant, its just we sell all ours abroad!

Thinking north sea gas.

 

 

 

Lynall

They built the interconnector pipeline from Bacton to the Continent, The plan was to export North Sea Gas but by the time it was opened it was only used to import gas.

[onionbargee]

you will have a job getting any waste veg oil these days, every drop goes back to the suppliers for which they pay 25 p per liter. I now where to get it but i'm not telling anyone, getting the stuff for free is like gold dust now.

 

I personally dont see any benefit of proccessing into bioDiesel when you can use straight preheated veg oil very successfully in the right engine.

[Doorman]

I believe that McDonald's recycle cooking oil for their fleet of lorries. According to big Mac.

[Ships Cat]

Depends on your relationship with your local chippy/chinese takeaway. Mine is very good and I can get oil any time I want.

 

I know a few people who run old trannies on veg from Costco, but they do suffer from pump failures regularly and most carry a spare in the fuel filter box.

[Orca]

N/A engines, with in line pumps (as per what Ship's Cat says above) prefer it better. I have had turbo diesel engines fail prematurely as the boost modules on the pumps don't like it (Lucas Cav). I used to use it, it's too much hassle now anyway. I prefer a 50/50 mix of Diesel/Kerosene and that's what I use in the boat. The Webasto loves it and so does the Perkins thus far. .

Edited August 11, 2013 by Orca