Why is this mooring so expensive?

[MtB]

As title really. My perception is that CRT have been re-listing this mooring since the dawn of time, with no takers ever. This time around they've taken new photos though:

 

https://www.crtmoorings.com/vacancy/vacancy_details.php?id=5127

 

The reserve is £2,846.00, for a mooring with public access and no parking. Does anyone know why so high? It looks a nice mooring but not at that price.

 

I'm fairly sure when it first came to my attention the reserve was about £2,400. I think CRT must have decided it didn't sell because it was too cheap...

 

MtB

[Leni]

Location, location, location! Hungerford is posh, don't ya know!

 

But if you think that's expensive, try Rickmansworth!

[mark99]

What about the Marina at Pyrford. The prices there are really expensive especially as you have to go via Thames to get on rest of canal system unless you want to plough up and down the Wey to Godalming + back or have a trip up the Basignstoke if it's navigable.

Edited May 30, 2013 by mark99

[alan_fincher]

Guide price is based on CRT's published list price for the mooring, which seems to be £137.47, per metre per yera.

 

So 23 times £137.47 gives £3,161,81.

 

The auction system only allows whole pounds, hence £3,162.

 

For some time CRT have decided to up the rate at which they set "reserve" to be 90% of guide, so 90% of £3,162 gives £2,846 rounded.

 

Can the K&A actually handle a 23 metre boat ? That's 75.5 feet ?

 

If not, would seem odd to charge for a mooring longer than the biggest boat you can have on the waterway.

 

In the past CRT have set "reserve" at 80%, then for a while 75% of guide, so if that were still the case, reserve would be £2,530 or £2,372 respectively, probably explaining your memory of "about £2,400.

 

This is an offside mooring, so might be priced higher than a towpath one, although at least £130 per metre per year looks to be fairly normal on the K&A in that area.

 

I'm not defending any of this, just giving you your explanation!

[MtB]

Location, location, location! Hungerford is posh, don't ya know!

 

But if you think that's expensive, try Rickmansworth!

 

I don't think Hungerford is any posher than Cropredy where I now moor for about the same money, but with car parking, security, water and elsan...

 

MtB

 

Edit to add: Oh yeah and it's offside, Alan!

 

Edited again to add: And thank you for the explanation Alan. Still seems expensive though!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the K&A could take a 23m boat. The locks all seem a whole lot longer than Aldebaran which is 68ft. Also interesting to see from Googlemaps it may once been the mooring for trip boat "ROSE OF HUNGERFORD" http://www.roseofhungerford.co.uk/

Edited May 30, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

But if you think that's expensive, try Rickmansworth!

Mike is talking about the published Guide and Reserve prices, not what the moorings are actually fetching.

 

I challenge you to show me one advertised at Ricky where the reserve price is approaching £3K!

[Leni]

Mike is talking about the published Guide and Reserve prices, not what the moorings are actually fetching.

 

I challenge you to show me one advertised at Ricky where the reserve price is approaching £3K!

 

True! I just wonder what any future moorings coming up in the area will be priced at Has a precedent been set?

 

But although I don't actually know Cropredy, Hungerford town is a fairly expensive (aka 'posh') area, so I would expect the moorings there to be highly priced.

[alan_fincher]

I don't think Hungerford is any posher than Cropredy where I now moor for about the same money, but with car parking, security, water and elsan...

 

MtB

 

Edit to add: Oh yeah and it's offside, Alan!

Hungerford £137.47 per metre per year

Cropredy £94.77 per metre, per year

 

CRT seem to think that Hungerford justifies about 145% the pricing of Cropredy.

 

You would need to ask them why, I guess, but the K&A ones are consistently £130 to £140, whereas that Cropredy price is above others on the Oxford, some only about £75.

[MtB]

True! I just wonder what any future moorings coming up in the area will be priced at Has a precedent been set?

 

But although I don't actually know Cropredy, Hungerford town is a fairly expensive (aka 'posh') area, so I would expect the moorings there to be highly priced.

 

I know the area quite well. When I was looking for a new mooring for Aldebaran, one of the Newbury marinas offered me a very nice marina spot for £3k. Again with parking, full security, elsan, power and water. (Newbury is about the same level of poshness as Hungerford and Cropredy IMO! ) I turned it down as I don't like mooring in marinas.

 

MtB

[WJM]

It is very close to a London commuter station - perfect for a static caravan 'boater'.

[alan_fincher]

True! I just wonder what any future moorings coming up in the area will be priced at Has a precedent been set?

 

But although I don't actually know Cropredy, Hungerford town is a fairly expensive (aka 'posh') area, so I would expect the moorings there to be highly priced.

So far any adjustment that BW/CRT have made to published list prices has not resulted in major hikes because of some of the massive prices achieved at auction.

 

However they have done at least one aligning exercise that paid some lip service to it, such that popular sites got larger increases, but sites where moorings consistently go unsold did not get increased at all.

 

(If you search hard enough on the internet their repricing reports are are online, though I'm not sure that was ever their intention, as there are no links to them).

 

If you look at Mike's challenge, Hungerford mooring prices were held static this year, wheras Cropredy increased, (though not hugely).

 

Imagine the backlash if they tried to suddenly start charging all those who have held LTMs at Ricky for years amounts equivalent to some of the more outrageous prices just achieved at auction. However I'm sure the obvious popularity means they have a case to keep making increases "above inflation".

[Steilsteven]

It is very close to a London commuter station - perfect for a static caravan 'boater'.

I can't see why that would have any bearing o the price of a leisure mooring.

Property prices in Cropredy and Hungerford are about the same and anyway, if you have a leisure mooring, surely the intent is to travel away from the location.

 

Keith

[arpeeuk]

Couple of other points about this mooring

 

it's for a boat up to 75.46' in length but I don't think you'd to get a boat of that length through the K&A locks, so you'll always be paying for more than you can use.

 

the only access to the mooring is over the lock gates, really convenient if you have to carry luggage/shopping to your boat.

 

I certainly won't be bidding on it

 

Rik

[WJM]

I can't see why that would have any bearing o the price of a leisure mooring.

Property prices in Cropredy and Hungerford are about the same and anyway, if you have a leisure mooring, surely the intent is to travel away from the location.

There are leisure moorings and there are leisure moorings ;-)

[MtB]

There are leisure moorings and there are leisure moorings ;-)

 

Yes you can't live on the boat on a leisure mooring but you can spend 'a lot of time' on it. Distinguishing between the two seems virtually impossible for a body in authority attempting to enforce the leisure status of a leisure mooring, which is why they don't bother unless provoked.

 

 

MtB

[alan_fincher]

If you look at the history of 23 metre moorings at Hungerford in the BW/CRT auction system it shows that on most occasions a vacancy has been advertised it has sold, but virtually always only at the reserve price, or marginally above - never at guide or above.

 

In July and August last year they failed to sell one at a £2,529 reserve, but by December when reserve was £2,846 they did sell one at the higher number.

 

Compared to the rate they fail to find bidders on other moorings, that is quite a high success rate.

 

I conclude the demand is just about there for charging at this level, but only just!

[Tuscan]

 

Yes you can't live on the boat on a leisure mooring but you can spend 'a lot of time' on it. Distinguishing between the two seems virtually impossible for a body in authority attempting to enforce the leisure status of a leisure mooring, which is why they don't bother unless provoked.

 

 

MtB

Does the agreement specifically say you can't live on a boat whilst on a leisure mooring I thought CRT had dropped this. I didn't think they cared one way or another as long as you paid.

 

If you look at the history of 23 metre moorings at Hungerford in the BW/CRT auction system it shows that on most occasions a vacancy has been advertised it has sold, but virtually always only at the reserve price, or marginally above - never at guide or above.

 

In July and August last year they failed to sell one at a £2,529 reserve, but by December when reserve was £2,846 they did sell one at the higher number.

 

Compared to the rate they fail to find bidders on other moorings, that is quite a high success rate.

 

I conclude the demand is just about there for charging at this level, but only just!

 

I think your conclusion may be correct in that it's priced at a level that just one or two can afford, the demand for LTM's is of course much much higher as we all know.

[blackrose]

I guess it's because it's smack, bang in the middle of town. I went past several weeks ago. It's a nice mooring.

 

But as to whether it's over-priced or not "the market will decide".

Edited May 30, 2013 by blackrose

[MtB]

I guess it's because it's smack, bang in the middle of town. I went past several weeks ago. It's a nice mooring.

 

But as to whether it's over-priced or not "the market will decide".

 

But my point is the market HAS decided. It's been listed multiple times at lower reserves and not sold.

 

Why will CRT not take what the market is prepared to pay, by lowering the reserve each time they re-list it instead of raising it?

 

 

MtB

[alan_fincher]

But my point is the market HAS decided. It's been listed multiple times at lower reserves and not sold.

 

Why will CRT not take what the market is prepared to pay, by lowering the reserve each time they re-list it instead of raising it?

 

 

MtB

Correction,

 

The last time they listed a 23 metre mooring here it did sell, and at that £2,846 reserve figure.....

 

Details here and here

 

You could argue they had the pricing right that time.

Edited May 30, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Leni]

But my point is the market HAS decided. It's been listed multiple times at lower reserves and not sold.

 

Why will CRT not take what the market is prepared to pay, by lowering the reserve each time they re-list it instead of raising it?

 

 

MtB

 

All part of the nonsense of a price "below which it would not be economical to let the mooring". So it's more 'economical' to let a mooring fail to attract any bids at all, and to stand empty? BW and now CRT have obviously never heard the old saying "Half a loaf is better than no bread"!

[alan_fincher]

As title really. My perception is that CRT have been re-listing this mooring since the dawn of time, with no takers ever. This time around they've taken new photos though:

It is your perception that is wrong, though.

 

See my previous post on the topic, but out of 6 previous attempts to sell a 23 metre mooring here, the record shows 4 succeeded, and only two failed.

 

Why will CRT not take what the market is prepared to pay, by lowering the reserve each time they re-list it instead of raising it?

 

 

MtB

Because people who are already paying significantly more for a mooring at that site will bid on it, and potentially get a much cheaper deal for the next 3 yeras.

 

They will only need to forfeit one month of their current contract, so will quickly recoup that in future savings. (It is also a "no risk" thing to try, if you can't get in with a cheap bid, keep your current contract, but see if you can get lucky on the next vacancy advertised).

 

When their existing mooring comes up for auction with a very low reserve, and someone realises what they have done, they will then copy them.

 

Over time it will massively drive down the revenue CRT get from less profitable sites.

 

However, (doing it to death now!), this site does not appear that unpopular, as the record shows someone was happy to pay the 90% reserve price there last December.

 

But I have no doubt generally why CRT operate the reserve prices at such high levels, and it is dishonest that they will never admit the reason, citing other ones that are nonsense. Clearly as Leni says, getting £1,500 for a mooring (say), if there were no other considerations, must be better business than getting nothing for it. But they have painted themselves into a corner. The auction system only works for them in places where demand outstrips supply, elsewhere it is a millstone around their neck.

[Athy]

I don't think Hungerford is any posher than Cropredy

Of course it is. It has antique shops.

 

As for the BW prices for local long-term moorings being lower in Croppers, I would guess that it's at least partly because all the Cropredy moorings are on the towpath side, whereas the advertised mooring in Hungers is offside (and rather cutely tucked away).

[luctor et emergo]

He, read the details. There are toilets, a mere 3 miles away.

[MtB]

It is your perception that is wrong, though.

 

See my previous post on the topic, but out of 6 previous attempts to sell a 23 metre mooring here, the record shows 4 succeeded, and only two failed.

 

But IS my perception wrong though? It's always the same concrete jetty shown in the listing photos, always with a boat always moored on the bankside, and always described as an offside mooring, which is why it keeps attracting my attention.

 

Has this one space really been listed six times and sold four times over? Even if both offside spaces have been listed, this is three times each! If they are selling them then they are having enormous trouble keeping tenants there. Or do you think they use photos of the offside jetty when listing the towpath moorings on the same map but on the opposite side of the cut?

 

 

MtB