Ex-FMC Kestrel - Help please

[Hastings]

I'm looking into some aspects of FMC boat history, and I'm a tad confused about Kestrel, a 1928 Yarwoods motor boat, FMC fleet no. 202. I've investigated various routes on the internetty thing, and there seems to be general consensus that Kestrel was cut into two by BW in about 1959. So far so good - and, as you'll see, "two" is important.

 

One boat, coincidentally called Kestrel, is said to be built around the stern section. This is a greenish boat, probably 40' to 45', with the following humorous wording painted on the cabin side - "N.Old R.Send & Co., Yarn Spinners, Mordon Water" and "Kestrel, FMC No. 202". My last photo of it was at Trent Lock in August 2011.

 

But I have discovered two boats that are said to have the bow of Kestrel.

 

One is a full length sheeted boat with a cabin that might have been extended a few feet forward of the engine hole. It's painted in FMC red and green, and fully signwritten as FMC Kestrel No. 202. I have a photo of it at Malkins Bank (T&M), going north, just over a year ago.

 

The other is Water Lily. This is one of the various hire boats that BW created in the 1960's/1970s by cutting and shutting bits of boats. It is signwritten "Water Lily Langley Mill Ex FMC Kestrel 202". My photo is from June 2011, on the northern Oxford - I suspect that it has been recabined since its hire days.

 

Now, I know that a few working boats were in fact cut in three sections, and all bits reused. Was that the case here (as I don't think that Joshers had two bows!). I've also heard of some confusion re Kestrel and Ostrich, though I'm not sure what that is about. But even if relevant, how does that fit in here, as all three of these boats have Kestrel 202 painted on their sides? Clearly, there are three boats, as the photos are only months apart - not long enough to rebuild one of them.

 

May I thank forum readers in advance for what I know will be erudite explanations.

[matty40s]

I'm looking into some aspects of FMC boat history, and I'm a tad confused about Kestrel, a 1928 Yarwoods motor boat, FMC fleet no. 202. I've investigated various routes on the internetty thing, and there seems to be general consensus that Kestrel was cut into two by BW in about 1959. So far so good - and, as you'll see, "two" is important.

 

One boat, coincidentally called Kestrel, is said to be built around the stern section. This is a greenish boat, probably 40' to 45', with the following humorous wording painted on the cabin side - "N.Old R.Send & Co., Yarn Spinners, Mordon Water" and "Kestrel, FMC No. 202". My last photo of it was at Trent Lock in August 2011.

 

But I have discovered two boats that are said to have the bow of Kestrel.

 

One is a full length sheeted boat with a cabin that might have been extended a few feet forward of the engine hole. It's painted in FMC red and green, and fully signwritten as FMC Kestrel No. 202. I have a photo of it at Malkins Bank (T&M), going north, just over a year ago.

 

The other is Water Lily. This is one of the various hire boats that BW created in the 1960's/1970s by cutting and shutting bits of boats. It is signwritten "Water Lily Langley Mill Ex FMC Kestrel 202". My photo is from June 2011, on the northern Oxford - I suspect that it has been recabined since its hire days.

 

Now, I know that a few working boats were in fact cut in three sections, and all bits reused. Was that the case here (as I don't think that Joshers had two bows!). I've also heard of some confusion re Kestrel and Ostrich, though I'm not sure what that is about. But even if relevant, how does that fit in here, as all three of these boats have Kestrel 202 painted on their sides? Clearly, there are three boats, as the photos are only months apart - not long enough to rebuild one of them.

 

May I thank forum readers in advance for what I know will be erudite explanations.

Water Lily was moored next to me at Shardlow last Jan when iced in. There seems to be very little "old" boat, however, the front end seems to match the Yarwoods FMC description. The other one, I have seen this year but cannot recollect any details, however, will look through photo's.

[AMModels]

you dont want to trust the internet, evil things lurk there just to spread false information about boats.

[alan_fincher]

Alvecote August 2012

 

 

 

 

[dave moore]

Hi

 

I understand that N OLe R Send is moored on the Erewash canal on the offside moorings above Trent Lock. I think it may be owned by Chris and Jan Deuchar who live on a pair of boats at the lock itself (can't recall the names of that pair).

 

I also recall that a full length FMC motor named Kestrel was owned by the Currell bros during the 60s. They took part in several Staffs/Worcs Canal Soc Cruises at that time, tho' I can't recall any fleet Nos. on the sides.

 

I know that this doesn't much help the OP but it may spur others with sharper memories.

 

Happy New Year to you all

 

Dave

[alan_fincher]

I'll leave it to others to explain why there are now multiple ex-FMC boats called "Kestrel", but it seems the current owner of the full length one pictured at Alvecote (above) believes they have photographic evidence that establishes it as the one originally carrying that name.

 

I now firmly await being told why it isn't!.

 

This is the one Dave refers to as formerly owned by the Currell brothers.

 

I also believe it is the case that, as Dave says, Chris Deuchar owns the one based on a back end, (picture from HNBC site).

 

[AMModels]

I got this from a previous owner and have no reason why it should be discounted, I recognise at the same time that it is not definitive proof of anything *

 

My husband and I owned a motor from 1965 to about 1971 which we were first told was "Ostrich" but various BW maintenance men we talked to all over the Midlands all said that it was "the old Kestrel" - Ostrich having been cut up by mistake and BW switched their names. The boat we owned has various dents in the back counter caused by use at some point without fenders and this is how these old BW employees recognised the boat. We subsequently called the boat Kestrel which we believed to be No.202 At first the boat was converted to residential accommodation but we "deconverted " it by transferring the conversion wholesale on to a wooden butty we had acquired which we called "Delta" *(the original name having been forgotten but the BW men said it began with D and was about9 letters) we used the lock at Stoke Prior wharf as a "jack" to do this job, which worked very well. We then proceeded to restore Kestrel to working condition before selling it to two brothers Roger and Peter Currell in about 1971 who continued the restoration work.

 

 

 

*- and any other waivers anyone cares to supply regarding the 'proof' of this information.

 

Edited December 30, 2012 by AMModels

[alan_fincher]

Linky to Chris Deuchar's site for anybody interested in the cut one.....

[Hastings]

Thanks everyone for your responses to my original enquiry about Kestrel.

 

I think it's clear that the boat in the image on the right of the linky above is formed from the back end of Kestrel. This is the green "N Old R Send & Co" boat, believed to belong to the Deuchars, and kept at Trent Lock.

 

But I'm not sure we have identified which of the two contenders has the real front end of Kestrel. The contenders are:

 

1 Water Lily, the ex hire boat (see left hand image at same linky)

2 the full length sheeted working boat, as in Alan Fincher's photos above.

 

I accept that the owner of the full length boat believes it does have Kestrel's front end, and that BW records from when they cut up boats 40-50 years ago might be a bit haphazard.

 

But, I'm still looking for the definitive answer!

 

Many thanks

Edited December 31, 2012 by Hastings

[Derek R.]

So many pieces lost, changed, duplicated, and claimed true.

So many 'Holy Grails'. Only so much is known from records as have been kept. The rest is conjecture and guesswork.

 

Was not an 'E' left out of N Old R Send?

[alan_fincher]

I think it's clear that the boat in the image on the right of the linky above is formed from the back end of Kestrel. This is the green "N Old R Send & Co" boat, believed to belong to the Deuchars, and kept at Trent Lock.

 

But I'm not sure we have identified which of the two contenders has the real front end of Kestrel. The contenders are:

 

1 Water Lily, the ex hire boat (see left hand image at same linky)

2 the full length sheeted working boat, as in Alan Fincher's photos above.

 

I accept that the owner of the full length boat believes it does have Kestrel's front end, and that BW records from when they cut up boats 40-50 years ago might be a bit haphazard.

Not my reading of the situation, but perhaps I have misunderstood?

 

Is there evidence that the full length unconverted "Kestrel" is anything other than an original uncut Josher?

 

If so I'm not up to speed.

 

I thought either all of it is Kestrel, or all of it is something else.

 

Same applies to the cut boat - just which one is Kestrel, and which started life as something else?

[billh]

Not my reading of the situation, but perhaps I have misunderstood?

 

Is there evidence that the full length unconverted "Kestrel" is anything other than an original uncut Josher?

 

If so I'm not up to speed.

 

I thought either all of it is Kestrel, or all of it is something else.

 

Same applies to the cut boat - just which one is Kestrel, and which started life as something else?

 

I clearly remember a full length boat , with conversion , named Kestrel on the Caldon Canal at Hazelhurst ,1973(?). There was a boat rally there and Kestrel was winning the "Tug of War" event , mainly because she had a K2 Kelvin 44hp installed- most impressive and very unusual in those days. I heard that some time later, the engine was exchanged for a BMC truck engine as the Kelvin was hand start only and the owner was running out of starter power.

Bill

[Hastings]

Not my reading of the situation, but perhaps I have misunderstood?

 

Is there evidence that the full length unconverted "Kestrel" is anything other than an original uncut Josher?

 

If so I'm not up to speed.

 

I thought either all of it is Kestrel, or all of it is something else.

 

Same applies to the cut boat - just which one is Kestrel, and which started life as something else?

 

Thanks - I started with what it says on the HNBC website about Kestrel:

 

Cut into two boats by BWB in 1959, Bow of what is almost definitely Kestrel formed part of Water Lily, stern remained as Kestrel. (Water Lily was thought at one time to be part of FMC Ostrich.) HNBOC archive has full saga of identities of Kestrel and Ostrich.

 

But then of course that might be wrong! And the full-length Kestrel may well be the real Kestrel.

 

In which case the other two with Kestrel 202 painted on are imposters!

 

May we see if we get any more information.

 

Peter

[AMModels]

Not my reading of the situation, but perhaps I have misunderstood?

 

Is there evidence that the full length unconverted "Kestrel" is anything other than an original uncut Josher?

 

If so I'm not up to speed.

 

I thought either all of it is Kestrel, or all of it is something else.

 

Same applies to the cut boat - just which one is Kestrel, and which started life as something else?

 

Thats how I understand it too Alan, Ostrich/Kestrel cut up by BW, names possibly transposed at some point, first hand testimony that distinguishing features relate to one boat or the other.

Edited December 31, 2012 by AMModels

[alan_fincher]

Thanks - I started with what it says on the HNBC website about Kestrel:

 

Cut into two boats by BWB in 1959, Bow of what is almost definitely Kestrel formed part of Water Lily, stern remained as Kestrel. (Water Lily was thought at one time to be part of FMC Ostrich.) HNBOC archive has full saga of identities of Kestrel and Ostrich.

 

Yes, I saw that too, but I see nothing there (or elsewhere) that the full length "Kestrel" is made up of bits of more than one boat.

 

Your last post said.....

 

I think it's clear that the boat in the image on the right of the linky above is formed from the back end of Kestrel. This is the green "N Old R Send & Co" boat, believed to belong to the Deuchars, and kept at Trent Lock.

 

But I'm not sure we have identified which of the two contenders has the real front end of Kestrel. The contenders are:

 

1 Water Lily, the ex hire boat (see left hand image at same linky)

2 the full length sheeted working boat, as in Alan Fincher's photos above.

 

Which seemed to imply that you thought the front end of the full length boat could have come from a different boat to the rear or it.

 

Additionally I don't know why you believe "it's clear that the boat in the image on the right of the linky above is formed from the back end of Kestrel", as I found posts by the owner of that boat tat seemed to accept it may not be.

 

Without more information about why any of the three boats may or may not be Kestrel, (or contain half of it), I think we are guessing. I could not locate the archived HNBOC material referred to.......

[Chris Pink]

 

Was not an 'E' left out of N Old R Send?

 

More likely an 'A'

[Derek R.]

Touché!

 

I might add, though it's hearsay again, that during the early eighties when WATER LILLY was moored at Cow Roast someone said it was the fore end of OSTRICH. Can't remember who, and that person may have heard it from someone else, who heard it . . . . etc. etc. No proof.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Derek R.

[pete harrison]

Touché!

 

I might add, though it's hearsay again, that during the early eighties when WATER LILLY was moored at Cow Roast someone said it was the fore end of OSTRICH. Can't remember who, and that person may have heard it from someone else, who heard it . . . . etc. etc. No proof.

It was a well respected surveyor who claimed WATER LILLY to be the fore end of OSTRICH during a survey. This seems fine but in a different survey of the same boat he identified it as the fore end of KESTREL ! There is absolutely no doubt that 'British Waterways' records state that WATER LILY was built out of KESTREL, with the conversion taking place at Bulls Bridge and Saltley in 1959. I know this because I have handled and transcribed the original 'British Waterways' documents. The stern end of KESTREL was converted to a maintenance tug / flat at Bulls Bridge by the fitting of a new rivetted fore end, which this boat still retains. This tug / flat kept the name KESTREL and was latterly based at Hatton / Knowle until its disposal.

 

The F.M.C. Ltd. full length motor currently named KESTREL was tendered for sale by 'British Waterways' in 1963 as OSTRICH, complete with a Parsons Merganser diesel (I have a copy of the tender form). This engine was subsequently fitted into the Currell's motor ASCOT, although by then OSTRICH had been renamed KESTREL (see 'AMModels' earlier post - No. 7) and the Currell's fitted a 15hp Bolinder in place of the Parsons Merganser - the first of several engine changes whilst in their ownership.

 

To complete the history OSTRICH had fallen out of use by 1949 and after consideration for transfer to the North Western Division in 1952 it eventually became a maintenance boat in November 1953, based at Hillmorton and maintained at Saltley. KESTREL was an active carrying boat and appears on numerous 'British Waterways' fleet lists throughout the 1950's, up until and including 20 May 1958 (although a document dated 22 April 1958 stated "not operational").

 

I have heard several versions of how the wrong boat (OSTRICH instead of KESTREL) was sent to Bulls Bridge for conversion to a hire cruiser in 1959, and this may or may not be true - and it depends on what you want to believe. Personally I find it very difficult to believe that KESTREL and OSTRICH could have been easily mixed up as the former would have been a fully rigged carrying boat whilst the latter had been a maintenance boat for several years. I fear this matter may not be easily resolved.

 

edit - to improve accuracy / datelines

Edited December 31, 2012 by pete harrison

[alan_fincher]

Thanks for an informative post Pete, (a certain surveyor's name seems to have been there one minute and gone the next though! ).

 

I must admit, not ever having paid that much attention to FMC boat histories, I had not even been aware of the "two Kestrels" issue, nor realised that the one I always know as Kestrel might not in fact always have been so. (I didn't I think even make the connection that the Chris Deuchar one was based on a Josher, as I have tended to only see front end pictures of it, and wondered what it was).

 

One lives and learns, so thanks for supplying the facts as you have them. Like many others, I'm sure, I always appreciate your input.

[pete harrison]

Thanks for an informative post Pete, (a certain surveyor's name seems to have been there one minute and gone the next though! ).

I thought it to be ungentlemanly to name him so I reconsidered my wording.

 

I must admit, not ever having paid that much attention to FMC boat histories

I must confess F.M.C. Ltd. boats lie a little outside of my main field of research too. Fortunately I have taken a few notes here and there

[Laurence Hogg]

Here are the two Kestrals both taken in the mid 1970's.The tug is at Hawkesbury Jcn, the Currel motor at Groveland Bridge BCN Netherton tunnel branch. The picture of the boat at Groveland Bridge is taken from the roof of the original H F Truman with Keith Eley steering, we were on our way to a Dudley Dig.

 

 

[antarmike]

Would that be M. E. Old Boat-surveyor then ?

 

Here are the two Kestrals (sic.) both taken in the mid 1970's.The tug is at Hawkesbury Jcn, ....

 

There does seem to be some confusion on BWB's part since the photo above is of a boat named Kestral not Kestrel. The sign writer, and I use that term loosely, does not seem to be working from any written record or surely the spelling would be correct.

Edited December 31, 2012 by antarmike

[Admiral]

Removed post.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Admiral

[AMModels]

Am I right in thinking the top pic os of the original stern with a fore end lobbed on to it and the second is the full length never altered boat which could be Kestrel or Ostrich depending on whether you believe the BW workers story or not?

[alan_fincher]

Am I right in thinking the top pic os of the original stern with a fore end lobbed on to it and the second is the full length never altered boat which could be Kestrel or Ostrich depending on whether you believe the BW workers story or not?

That's how I have understood it, but obviously if the surviving full length boat were (all of) Kestrel, then that back end with a new front on can't be!