winter moorings

[churchward]

Yes, but that assumes they cease to get existing winter mooring revenue, but that the chunk added to each "no home mooring" licence is enough to offset that, and nothing else changes.

 

If people who do currently have home moorings then see declaring themselves a a CC-er, where they pay maybe just £100 for the privilege of an automatic winter mooring as an option, I believe it would tempt far, far more to do so.

 

I have been paying £2,262 per annum to keep a 50 foot boat on a serviced CRT mooring, and was "lucky" enough to get a 40 foot unserviced one at £1,305 pa, (where te bank has since caved in!).

 

Reducing moorings costs from over £3,500 pa to just (say) £200 pa would be immensely attractive to me. My boats don't tend to need to e in the same place very long in the midle of the year, so for a £3,300 pa saving, I'd strongly consider a "winter moorings only" solution.

 

That I think sums up the potential problem with this idea - I can't see CRT could actually stop people doing this, cold they ?

 

 

I understand the thinking, but at the moment I can't see a solution.

 

What was apparent to me the other night, (speaking, I guess, as a reasonably "privileged" person), is that many of those at that meeting simply would not be able to find (let's say) and extra £200 a month throughout the winter for a mooring - it is fairly obvious many would still struggle at far less.

 

I'm not of the frame of mind that says "tough sh*t - you made the decision to live on a boat", (although many will of course!), so I'd love to see more workable solutions.

 

Of course paying £200 a month for the use of a bit of muddy towpath throughout the winter seems over the top. But then paying £2000 a year to have a similar one as a permanent mooring doesn't exactly sound a better deal either, does it.?

 

I don't know the answer - I wish I did!

 

I tend to agree with the points you make and generally I see the method proposed in the OP substituting one issue for another.

 

Also although I understand peoples affordability issues just wishing something was cheaper doesn't make it realistic.

 

I think we would all like 5 months or so of mooring for £100 but it doesn't seem realistic or equitable compared to what an online leisure mooring costs per year.

 

For folk who are in real monetary hardship on boats I would like to see better systemic help for them. I don't mean it's CRTs problem though.

Edited December 11, 2012 by churchward

[mrsmelly]

I know your not being unhelpful. The hurdles your bringing up are good points.

 

Hi

 

I may not be keeping up at the back here but I see no problem with the system as I have used it for many years. When I cc which I do on occasion for periods of up to 2 years I simply move around the system as in continuously cruise. I have on some occasions over winter decided to stay put for some length of time and either gone into a private mooring or taken a bw winter mooring, they I find will always let you pay more or less wherever you pitch up though I would never go onto recognised mooring spaces that is not fair on others still cruising. Its not hard, what problems do peeps envisage now we have a change of admin. I dont believe for one minute that those of us who cc and then decide to moor up for the winter should pay a lesser rate than locals who pay moorings all year, a similar rate pro rata would be fair to all concerned surely.

 

Tim

[Proper Job]

I'm with Alan on this one.

 

If they bought in a surcharge of £200 on a CC licence that covered a 5 month Winter mooring, I'd be giving up my £2000 plus a year mooring, getting a CC licence and moving the boat every 14 days.

 

I don't think I'd be alone. It would become an enforcement nightmare for CRT in the non Winter months

[mrsmelly]

I'm with Alan on this one.

 

If they bought in a surcharge of £200 on a CC licence that covered a 5 month Winter mooring, I'd be giving up my £2000 plus a year mooring, getting a CC licence and moving the boat every 14 days.

 

I don't think I'd be alone. It would become an enforcement nightmare for CRT in the non Winter months

 

Yes indeed. Dare I say ( waiting for incoming ) that some so called ccers simply hop about on one canal and avoid paying mooring fees ?

 

Tim

[ditchcrawler]

 

Well.....

 

It does create another whole new potential technicality though - CCer's who don't move but also have a home mooring anyway......

 

I think for the reasons Richard indicated and for your idea not to be abused in the way described CRT would need to make it compulsory for us boaters that have a home mooring to declare it and thus render us ineligible for the type of licence you propose.

 

Other wise yes it will be exploited I'm sure.

But if your licence is due for renewal in the winter months you wouldn't have a home mooring. It would be no different to a CCer taking a mooring in the summer for a bit while they left the boat for some reason.

[Dekazer]

Just a quick point in response to the suggestion that people would leave their fixed moorings in order to take up the cheap winter mooring offer.

 

People who have permanent moorings in marinas or offside don't only choose these because they can't/won't cc properly. Some people have moorings because they want a residential address, some like the security of a locked mooring, some like the sociability, some like the land-based facilities, some don't want to move, some want to stay still while having a baby/doing DIY etc. They may not want to give up their (scarce) mooring just to save cash, and risk not being able to find another come spring. CCers wouldn't be sacrificing a lease in the same way.

 

I don't believe that many moorers would bother abandon their moorings just to save a few hundred (or even thousand) quid a year, because there are factors other than money at play.

 

This translates to other economic decisions. Banks and credit card companies rely on people not bothering to move. I move credit card debt as soon as fixed term 0% interest offers end, most don't. I move my ISA every year to maximise the interest rate, most don't. I imagine that a few money-conscious moorers would bend the rules and flit between a mooring and the CCer winter mooring arrangement, but I suspect most wouldn't.

 

Jenlyn, I wonder how you might test the feasibility of your idea. So far, the CRT BOater Survey is probably the best indication of how many CCers want a mooring. How might you guesstimate how many moorers would abadon their moorings every year?

[Chris Pink]

 

 

In fact I imagine such an arrangement might cause a large scale relinquishing of permanent moorings generally, and far more people making a "no home mooring" declaration, knowing the winter was now covered. If that happened, it would be a huge loss of revenue for CRT, whether they are CRT moorings being given up, or ones where CRT takes a cut from a private operator. But also I assume all those who operate private moorings would be up in arms about such arrangements too.

 

 

 

I'm sorry Alan , I would have expected better of you than this hackneyed argument. People who rent moorings get a lot for that. Yes, you could move onto the towpath. I expect you move enough that you wouldn't get hassled anyway, even if you didn't you could pop down every couple of weeks and move a few miles. (this is as much an elaboration of my derision about Richard's argument too). But you could do that now. You don't and probably for a multitude of reasons. Even the most basic of towpath moorings have a lot more going for them than none at all - though I would contend that a lot of them are way overpriced - but even a basic level of services, somewhere to leave your tat, people around who'll keep an eye out...

 

you get what you pay for and if you pay nowt you get nowt, with the added risk of someone breaking into your pride and joy and stripping it of it's expensive goodies.

 

so if you want to save yourself some money, why not give up your moorings and roam free?

 

There's a hudson boat that wanders around on the K and A like that, but I wouldn't do it, leave £80K's worth of boat to the fortune of fate. As is often pointed out, when a bunch of thieves realise there's easy picking they'll go through like a does of salts.

 

You won't swap your mooring for none and that is nothing whatsoever to do with CRT's blathering.

[system 4-50]

Just a quick point in response to the suggestion that people would leave their fixed moorings in order to take up the cheap winter mooring offer.

 

People who have permanent moorings in marinas or offside don't only choose these because they can't/won't cc properly. Some people have moorings because they want a residential address, some like the security of a locked mooring, some like the sociability, some like the land-based facilities, some don't want to move, some want to stay still while having a baby/doing DIY etc. They may not want to give up their (scarce) mooring just to save cash, and risk not being able to find another come spring. CCers wouldn't be sacrificing a lease in the same way.

 

I don't believe that many moorers would bother abandon their moorings just to save a few hundred (or even thousand) quid a year, because there are factors other than money at play.

 

This translates to other economic decisions. Banks and credit card companies rely on people not bothering to move. I move credit card debt as soon as fixed term 0% interest offers end, most don't. I move my ISA every year to maximise the interest rate, most don't. I imagine that a few money-conscious moorers would bend the rules and flit between a mooring and the CCer winter mooring arrangement, but I suspect most wouldn't.

 

Jenlyn, I wonder how you might test the feasibility of your idea. So far, the CRT BOater Survey is probably the best indication of how many CCers want a mooring. How might you guesstimate how many moorers would abadon their moorings every year?

Poll please! We haven't had one for simply ages.

[Chris Pink]

Y

Reducing moorings costs from over £3,500 pa to just (say) £200 pa would be immensely attractive to me. My boats don't tend to need to e in the same place very long in the midle of the year, so for a £3,300 pa saving, I'd strongly consider a "winter moorings only" solution.

 

 

 

At the risk of belabouring the point: why don't you do this then?

 

It doesn't take much to move a boat every two weeks.

 

There is more to it than you suggest.

 

and if it is as simple as you suggest you would be economically better off with the existing winter mooring arrangements.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Chris Pink

[Sir Nibble]

Just a quick point in response to the suggestion that people would leave their fixed moorings in order to take up the cheap winter mooring offer.

 

People who have permanent moorings in marinas or offside don't only choose these because they can't/won't cc properly. Some people have moorings because they want a residential address, some like the security of a locked mooring, some like the sociability, some like the land-based facilities, some don't want to move, some want to stay still while having a baby/doing DIY etc. They may not want to give up their (scarce) mooring just to save cash, and risk not being able to find another come spring. CCers wouldn't be sacrificing a lease in the same way.

 

I don't believe that many moorers would bother abandon their moorings just to save a few hundred (or even thousand) quid a year, because there are factors other than money at play.

 

This translates to other economic decisions. Banks and credit card companies rely on people not bothering to move. I move credit card debt as soon as fixed term 0% interest offers end, most don't. I move my ISA every year to maximise the interest rate, most don't. I imagine that a few money-conscious moorers would bend the rules and flit between a mooring and the CCer winter mooring arrangement, but I suspect most wouldn't.

 

Jenlyn, I wonder how you might test the feasibility of your idea. So far, the CRT BOater Survey is probably the best indication of how many CCers want a mooring. How might you guesstimate how many moorers would abadon their moorings every year?

To many assumptions, I assure you very many of us have moorings purely to satisfy our licence conditions and for no other reason, all the disposal points and electric hookups you can eat wouldn't be worth the cost if winter moorings were that cheap. I'm convinced by the arguments put forward by Alan.

I think you need to stop and think what it is you're trying to achieve and why. Affordable moorings are something we can all get behind but once you change that to "affordable winter moorings for CCers" you are by definition creating a priveledged group and others will want to climb aboard and take advantage. Moorings are a service just like diesel and it is iniquitous to think of making it cheaper for one group especially a group defined by lifestyle choice rather than need.

I hope there is a way round but I can't see it.

[Guest]

But if your licence is due for renewal in the winter months you wouldn't have a home mooring. It would be no different to a CCer taking a mooring in the summer for a bit while they left the boat for some reason.

 

The timing of renewal is important yes but if it was say end Dec not much help.

 

You wouldn't be able to take up one of the 'new type' winter mooring until you had got one of the new 'CCer licences'.

 

I suppose you could surrender your licence early and get one of the 'new' types if it was due part way through the winter, but then it all gets too much of a faff.

Edited December 11, 2012 by The Dog House

[churchward]

I'm sorry Alan , I would have expected better of you than this hackneyed argument. People who rent moorings get a lot for that. Yes, you could move onto the towpath. I expect you move enough that you wouldn't get hassled anyway, even if you didn't you could pop down every couple of weeks and move a few miles. (this is as much an elaboration of my derision about Richard's argument too). But you could do that now. You don't and probably for a multitude of reasons. Even the most basic of towpath moorings have a lot more going for them than none at all - though I would contend that a lot of them are way overpriced - but even a basic level of services, somewhere to leave your tat, people around who'll keep an eye out...

 

you get what you pay for and if you pay nowt you get nowt, with the added risk of someone breaking into your pride and joy and stripping it of it's expensive goodies.

 

so if you want to save yourself some money, why not give up your moorings and roam free?

 

There's a hudson boat that wanders around on the K and A like that, but I wouldn't do it, leave £80K's worth of boat to the fortune of fate. As is often pointed out, when a bunch of thieves realise there's easy picking they'll go through like a does of salts.

 

You won't swap your mooring for none and that is nothing whatsoever to do with CRT's blathering.

 

I think the point is that you can view many online moorings on the CRT auction list that have no facilities beyond a towpath and possibly rings to tie up to. many of these will be in excess of £1300 per year as a reserve price. So a charge of £100 per month at least is more in line with this for a winter mooring.

 

We may argue that this is still too much but if folk are paying that amount for that kind of mooring (and more) then it is the going rate.

 

This for instance is an example.

 

https://www.crtmoorings.com/vacancy/vacancy_details.php?id=4476

Edited December 11, 2012 by churchward

[Chris Pink]

To many assumptions, I assure you very many of us have moorings purely to satisfy our licence conditions and for no other reason, all the disposal points and electric hookups you can eat wouldn't be worth the cost if winter moorings were that cheap. I'm convinced by the arguments put forward by Alan.

I think you need to stop and think what it is you're trying to achieve and why. Affordable moorings are something we can all get behind but once you change that to "affordable winter moorings for CCers" you are by definition creating a priveledged group and others will want to climb aboard and take advantage. Moorings are a service just like diesel and it is iniquitous to think of making it cheaper for one group especially a group defined by lifestyle choice rather than need.

I hope there is a way round but I can't see it.

 

OK, I'll do you a deal Mr Hamster.

 

For exactly half of what you're paying now "purely to satisfy our licence conditions and for no other reason" I will move your boat every two weeks on the button within the parameter you need to satisfy the licence conditions of a licence with no home mooring.

 

It'll save you a small fortune. If I find another 4 like you, the "very many of us" then I can retire.

[Sir Nibble]

Thank you, but given that there is some disagreement about what is required to satisfy those conditions, and I suspect that as a new applicant pootling up and down between Dundas and Avoncliffe may not be what CaRT have in mind. Plus, and it's a big plus, no disrespect but I don't hand out the keys to my boat that readily.

[Chris Pink]

 

We may argue that this is still too much but if folk are paying that amount for that kind of mooring (and more) then it is the going rate.

 

 

So why is there no take up in winter moorings? If as you say, they are the going rate then surely they should be well subscribed.

 

Thank you, but given that there is some disagreement about what is required to satisfy those conditions, and I suspect that as a new applicant pootling up and down between Dundas and Avoncliffe may not be what CaRT have in mind. Plus, and it's a big plus, no disrespect but I don't hand out the keys to my boat that readily.

 

hmmmm, i hear the squeaky sound of pedals going backward.

 

I'd be more than happy to go far enough to satisfy the most ardent patrol officer.

 

and my references are impeccable.

[Dekazer]

To many assumptions, I assure you very many of us have moorings purely to satisfy our licence conditions and for no other reason, all the disposal points and electric hookups you can eat wouldn't be worth the cost if winter moorings were that cheap. I'm convinced by the arguments put forward by Alan.

I think you need to stop and think what it is you're trying to achieve and why. Affordable moorings are something we can all get behind but once you change that to "affordable winter moorings for CCers" you are by definition creating a priveledged group and others will want to climb aboard and take advantage. Moorings are a service just like diesel and it is iniquitous to think of making it cheaper for one group especially a group defined by lifestyle choice rather than need.

I hope there is a way round but I can't see it.

 

You're right, which is precisely why I asked 'Jenlyn, I wonder how you might test the feasibility of your idea. So far, the CRT BOater Survey is probably the best indication of how many CCers want a mooring. How might you guesstimate how many moorers would abadon their moorings every year?'

 

I answered Alan's assumptions with my own assumptions, to demonstrate that we don't know what would happen. However, I believe that my asusmptions closely mirror the predictions made by banks and others who offer money-off deals - they predict that most people won't shift regularly, because the hassle ain't worth the saving

 

Jenlyn's is an interesting proposition and I hope those people involved will keep us all up to date with your activities.

[alan_fincher]

At the risk of belabouring the point: why don't you do this then?

 

It doesn't take much to move a boat every two weeks.

 

There is more to it than you suggest.

Chris,

 

If I were to do this currently, there is more to it than just "moving a boat every two weeks", as I'm sure you know. I would get into the whole "bona fide for navigation" bit, and the arguments not just about how often, but also how much, and how soon I can be back at the same spot.

 

My understanding is Jenlyn's proposal would include the deal that you didn't need to move at all in the winter months. I could get a boat somewhere I felt happy with, and leave it there - in one case that "somewhere" might be a lot closer to home than the BW mooring I currently rent, which is not a convenient one for a boat that acts as a massive rainwater collection system, and needs regular visits to pump it out.

 

Keeping boats moving in the middle of the year is a whole different prospect, and they already spend months at a time not on the home moorings I am paying for.

 

You can choose to think I would never bother to save over £3K a year, if you like, but with an arrangement like Jenlyn suggests, not only could I do so, but I could do so with a clear conscience that the boats were being genuinely "navigated" when I didn't have winter moorings, and that when they were on winter moorings I would still be fully compliant if they never moved.

 

Such a situation isn't possible at the moment, so if I'm not to risk joining "the bad boys", giving up my moorings isn't an option. I couldn't in all honesty sign that declaration, but if Steve's idea was implemented, I could with a very clear conscience.

 

The most valid point you make, IMO, is about security of a boat left unattended. But as many CRT permanent mooring sites are little different from allocated winter moorings close to them, most people wouldn't necessarily lose much security from moving from one to the other. I already regularly leave boats for up to a week at a time around the system, anyway, of course, often at places where I know less about than I might for a chosen winter mooring.

 

Do you favour Jenlyn's proposal, then, and how many CC-ers do you think would be prepared to pay the supplement, (and how many unwilling to)?

[Sir Nibble]

So why is there no take up in winter moorings? If as you say, they are the going rate then surely they should be well subscribed.

Because there is no coertion like having your licence depend upon it for instance. The fact remains that if you reduce costs for one group then you automatically disadvantage others outside that group. I would suggest that people simply choose to do without because what they get is not worth the price to them because they can do without for a little extra effort which is worth the saving.

[Arthur Marshall]

Isn't one of the problems that you simply can't cc during winter because of the stoppages? I would have thought that this should be taken into account in the pricing of a winter mooring, which it appears isn't the case.

[alan_fincher]

However, I believe that my asusmptions closely mirror the predictions made by banks and others who offer money-off deals - they predict that most people won't shift regularly, because the hassle ain't worth the saving

As someone who is not a borrower, my bank(s) seldom offer me anything that will save me very much money at all. In fact the more usual strategy of my main bank is to try convining me I need some kind of "Platinum" or similar service, where I pay them for the privilege of holding my money.

 

If a bank offered me something tomorrow that meant an extra £3000 a year to spend, be it on boats, booze or mind enhancing drugs, I think I might be biting their hand off.

 

One other point - like any other leisure boater, I don't need a mooring as a correspondence address, or to satisy anyone of my legitimacy - I only need it as somewhere to park a boat when I'm not using it.

[Guest]

Isn't one of the problems that you simply can't cc during winter because of the stoppages? I would have thought that this should be taken into account in the pricing of a winter mooring, which it appears isn't the case.

 

I'm not sure that this is correct at all - it must be possible with judicious planning. They stagger the timings of works after all.

[richardf]

 

There's a hudson boat that wanders around on the K and A like that, but I wouldn't do it, leave £80K's worth of boat to the fortune of fate. As is often pointed out, when a bunch of thieves realise there's easy picking they'll go through like a does of salts.

 

You won't swap your mooring for none and that is nothing whatsoever to do with CRT's blathering.

 

But it won't work like that - I would be able to leave my boat in a community of liveaboards. Or would they get cross at me bending the rules

[Dekazer]

If a bank offered me something tomorrow that meant an extra £3000 a year to spend, be it on boats, booze or mind enhancing drugs, I think I might be biting their hand off.

 

Many wouldn't, if the offer meant losing the other attractions associated with a permanent mooring, including *some* security of tenure.

 

At a work meeting recently someone asked who had savings. A large number raised their hand - maybe 20 people. When then asked who was getting more than 0.5% interest, only two of us kept our hands up. It BAFFLES me how ostrich-like people are about money and don't shift their accounts around - I reckon I save several hundreds of pounds a year by not paying interest on debt while maximising interest on savings. But I certainly wouldn't give up my mooring to save £2k a year, unless I knew I'd be able to return to it after the winter period.

[churchward]

So why is there no take up in winter moorings? If as you say, they are the going rate then surely they should be well subscribed.

That will be because I didn't say that £100 per month was the going rate for winter moorings I am saying it is the going rate for some online leisure moorings.

 

The rate being asked in some cases I think for winter moorings is twice that which does seem rather a lot. However £100 for 5 months as is being suggested isn't realistic against the leisure mooring rates.

[Chris Pink]

 

My understanding is Jenlyn's proposal would include the deal that you didn't need to move at all in the winter months. I could get a boat somewhere I felt happy with, and leave it there - in one case that "somewhere" might be a lot closer to home than the BW mooring I currently rent, which is not a convenient one for a boat that acts as a massive rainwater collection system, and needs regular visits to pump it out.

 

K

 

 

 

But you could already do this. Legitimately, no sense of 'bending' any rules.

 

Cruise all summer, take a winter mooring in the place of your choice, as you say close to home. Save around 50% of the cost.

 

There's more to it than that. This sudden 'fear' of breaking the rules is just not convincing me that these arguments are genuine.

 

As to you last (sorry I've deleted it somewhere). No i don't think it's a good idea, there is one pleasure boat license by law, that I agree with. If you want a mooring for the winter months only, then if they were realistically priced people would buy them. This picture of a bunch of freeloaders who just won't pay a penny is completely incorrect. I know plenty of people who would buy winter moorings but are not prepared to be ripped off. The same goes, to a lesser extent, to the type of all year mooring referred to earlier. One of my boats is on a mooring with water power and car parking for around half that price so I certainly wouldn't pay £1400 for nothing at all.

 

But it won't work like that - I would be able to leave my boat in a community of liveaboards. Or would they get cross at me bending the rules

 

Like I say, your taking the piss doesn't further this discussion.