Diesel bug

[Tomm]

Hi,

 

Been told about this 'Diesel Bug' Wondered if anyone could give me any info on it. How do I prevent it and what do I do if I get it?

 

Cheers

Tomm

[NB Lola]

Just type diesel bug into google and all will be revealed

 

Much easier than a long explanation here

[Tony Brooks]

Hi,

 

Been told about this 'Diesel Bug' Wondered if anyone could give me any info on it. How do I prevent it and what do I do if I get it?

 

Cheers

Tomm

 

 

A combination of moulds, yeasts and microbes that, I am told, is in the oil when it comes from the ground. It causes little problem on road vehicles because of the high turnover of fuel but the longer you store fuel the more problem it MIGHT be.

 

Bio-diesel is more prone to attack than ordinary diesel and you might be buying fuel with up to 7% bio content.

 

It needs water in the fuel to breed so to minimise the chance of problems it is important to minimise the build up of water in the tank. I used to use an emulsifying additive but in view of certain problems with such additives I have now switched to a demulsifier and biocide additive like Marine 16, grotamar or similar.

 

It will initially show itself as discoloured fuel and dark jelly like substances in your filter ranging form brown to black.

[JDR]

My neighbour had a bug problem which was sorted by having all the existing fuel "polished", basically sucked out of the tank and passed through a series of increasingly fine filters before being returned to the tank.As my boat is 20yrs old I got my boat done at the same time and was amazed at the amount of black slime that came out, despite keeping tank full over winter, testing bottom of tank for water and using fuelset.I now use Marine 16.I used GU Diesel Services (Mark & Justina).No connection just a very satisfied customer.For less than £100 it's the best piece of preventative maintenance I can think of.If there isn't too much bug you may be lucky and get engine going with a dose of Marine 16 and changing all filters.

Edited December 9, 2012 by JDR

[Richard10002]

My neighbour had a bug problem which was sorted by having all the existing fuel "polished", basically sucked out of the tank and passed through a series of increasingly fine filters before being returned to the tank.As my boat is 20yrs old I got my boat done at the same time and was amazed at the amount of black slime that came out, despite keeping tank full over winter, testing bottom of tank for water and using fuelset.I now use Marine 16.I used GU Diesel Services (Mark & Justina).No connection just a very satisfied customer.For less than £100 it's the best piece of preventative maintenance I can think of.If there isn't too much bug you may be lucky and get engine going with a dose of Marine 16 and changing all filters.

 

One of our club members couldn't start last week. He called out RCR who changed the filters, which were full of gloop, (diesel bug), poured 2 little bottles of "stuff" into the tank and the primary filter, and all was good for the weekend trip to Manchester, and I think they were fine for this weeks trip to Lymm.

 

Not sure what the stuff was, but we had a discussion over whether it would be worth getting some and pouring it in the tank as a preventative measure.

[Tony Brooks]

One of our club members couldn't start last week. He called out RCR who changed the filters, which were full of gloop, (diesel bug), poured 2 little bottles of "stuff" into the tank and the primary filter, and all was good for the weekend trip to Manchester, and I think they were fine for this weeks trip to Lymm.

 

Not sure what the stuff was, but we had a discussion over whether it would be worth getting some and pouring it in the tank as a preventative measure.

 

 

Almost certainly one or two of the Marine 16 products. If one was a small bottle then that was concentrated biocide. If it was a larger bottle or bottle (about jam jar sized) then it was their fuel maintenance product that contains a biocide amongst other things.

[John V]

This is a regular discussion point in the "tea hut" (where the old gits congregate on our mooring) and the general consensus is that it has only become a severe problem over the last few years.

We have come to the conclusion that the two main contributing factors are the introduction of a percentage of bio in ordinary diesel and contamination from some suppliers tanks.

 

edited for clarity

Edited December 10, 2012 by John V

[Tony Brooks]

My neighbour had a bug problem which was sorted by having all the existing fuel "polished", basically sucked out of the tank and passed through a series of increasingly fine filters before being returned to the tank.As my boat is 20yrs old I got my boat done at the same time and was amazed at the amount of black slime that came out, despite keeping tank full over winter, testing bottom of tank for water and using fuelset.I now use Marine 16.I used GU Diesel Services (Mark & Justina).No connection just a very satisfied customer.For less than £100 it's the best piece of preventative maintenance I can think of.If there isn't too much bug you may be lucky and get engine going with a dose of Marine 16 and changing all filters.

 

 

Might just point out that about £20 for an additive once a year and not getting a problem may be even better value.

[Mike Todd]

As I understand it, bio diesel absorbs water much more than regular diesel which is why it offers better conditions for bug to grow.

[Up-Side-Down]

Might just point out that about £20 for an additive once a year and not getting a problem may be even better value.

 

As I understand it, one of the main reasons for the addition of up to 7% bio diesel is to replace the lubricity (required by the injector pump and injectors) that was previously inherent in the high sulphur content of the diesel sold as 'red diesel'- or gas oil to give it its proper name. The other reason being, of course, is in support of EU air quality objectives.

 

As of 1/1/11 gas oil used in all diesel engined non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) had to contain no more than 10 milligrams of sulphur per kilogram of fuel making it virtually 'sulphur free'. This is known as Grade A2 NRMM propulsion fuel and usually contains a bio content. This fuel will almost certainly be DERV with an added red dye.

 

Grade D (the original high sulphur content diesel we all purchased as 'red diesel' to fill our boat tanks with pre 1/1/!!) is still available (@ a penny or two cheaper than Grade A2) and is known as heating and stationary power generating fuel. It is also sometimes described as 'Marine Diesel' and is used by all deep sea vessels as the problems from diesel bug could be potentially catastrophic.

 

So far so good! With a 700 litre tank capacity on my boat I buy directly from a fuel oil distributor and he is currently offering me Grade A2 sulphur free gas oil, which is also bio free, as no bio is at present being added at the Grangemouth refinery.

 

So the 'plot thickens!' There are effectively 3 types of red diesel out there:

i) Grade A2 with up to 7% biodiesel added

ii) Grade A2 with no biodiesel added

iii) Grade D high sulphur diesel - the 'dirty' old pre 1/1/11 red diesel hated by most diesel central heating boilers and cooking stoves, mine included.

 

Around the system boatyards boast that their diesel is bio-free but is this because a) they're stocking the old Grade D gas oil OR is it Grade A2 minus the bio content? Which brings me to my 64 thousand dollar question for Tony (sorry its taken so long getting to the point!). Where is the all-important diesel pump lubrication coming from when Grade A2 fuel - without bio - is used?

 

My conjecture is that either the refinery is using an additive or they rely on a modern diesel's reduced need for fuel system lubrication. As I understand it my 1960s Ford lump (otherwise known as a Beta Tug engine) is very partial to large volumes of sulphur passing through its injector pump on a regular basis and I would therefore be very reluctant to use Grade A2 fuel without bio. However, my diesel cooker/heater would love the 'clean' Grade A2 and I would spent far less time de-gunking it.

 

I'd be very grateful if anybody could throw some light on my dilemma before I order my next consignment of fuel. Although I have two tanks I like to maintain the flexibility of using either for heating and/or propulsion. The stove is fed from the bottom of the tanks which is a crude (though effective) way of removing the water and rubbish and over the past 12 years the Dickinson (with its separate filter system) has never objected to its varied diet. As we know, the brew of microbes, yeasts etc that Tony mentions live most contentedly at the interface between the diesel/water layer (exacerbated by the hygroscopic nature of bio-diesel) and my system continuously and effectively interferes with this interface.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Up-Side-Down

[Tony Brooks]

As I understand it, one of the main reasons for the addition of up to 7% bio diesel is to replace the lubricity (required by the injector pump and injectors) that was previously inherent in the high sulphur content of the diesel sold as 'red diesel'- or gas oil to give it its proper name. The other reason being, of course, is in support of EU air quality objectives.

 

As of 1/1/11 gas oil used in all diesel engined non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) had to contain no more than 10 milligrams of sulphur per kilogram of fuel making it virtually 'sulphur free'. This is known as Grade A2 NRMM propulsion fuel and usually contains a bio content. This fuel will almost certainly be DERV with an added red dye.

 

Grade D (the original high sulphur content diesel we all purchased as 'red diesel' to fill our boat tanks with pre 1/1/!!) is still available (@ a penny or two cheaper than Grade A2) and is known as heating and stationary power generating fuel. It is also sometimes described as 'Marine Diesel' and is used by all deep sea vessels as the problems from diesel bug could be potentially catastrophic.

 

So far so good! With a 700 litre tank capacity on my boat I buy directly from a fuel oil distributor and he is currently offering me Grade A2 sulphur free gas oil, which is also bio free, as no bio is at present being added at the Grangemouth refinery.

 

So the 'plot thickens!' There are effectively 3 types of red diesel out there:

i) Grade A2 with up to 7% biodiesel added

ii) Grade A2 with no biodiesel added

iii) Grade D high sulphur diesel - the 'dirty' old pre 1/1/11 red diesel hated by most diesel central heating boilers and cooking stoves, mine included.

 

Around the system boatyards boast that their diesel is bio-free but is this because a) they're stocking the old Grade D gas oil OR is it Grade A2 minus the bio content? Which brings me to my 64 thousand dollar question for Tony (sorry its taken so long getting to the point!). Where is the all-important diesel pump lubrication coming from when Grade A2 fuel - without bio - is used?

 

My conjecture is that either the refinery is using an additive or they rely on a modern diesel's reduced need for fuel system lubrication. As I understand it my 1960s Ford lump (otherwise known as a Beta Tug engine) is very partial to large volumes of sulphur passing through its injector pump on a regular basis and I would therefore be very reluctant to use Grade A2 fuel without bio. However, my diesel cooker/heater would love the 'clean' Grade A2 and I would spent far less time de-gunking it.

 

I'd be very grateful if anybody could throw some light on my dilemma before I order my next consignment of fuel. Although I have two tanks I like to maintain the flexibility of using either for heating and/or propulsion. The stove is fed from the bottom of the tanks which is a crude (though effective) way of removing the water and rubbish and over the past 12 years the Dickinson (with its separate filter system) has never objected to its varied diet. As we know, the brew of microbes, yeasts etc that Tony mentions live most contentedly at the interface between the diesel/water layer (exacerbated by the hygroscopic nature of bio-diesel) and my system continuously and effectively interferes with this interface.

 

 

One thing may be considered certain and that is no major corporation is going to buy feed stock that is more expensive that others so in my view that rather discounts the added for lubricity. As far as I have been able to find out, but to be sure we really need someone with inside info from the fuels industry, bio was added to ROAD fuel because the EU said it had to be, nothing more and nothing less. As bio is more costly that petro-diesel I can not see them doing it voluntarily. Some years before that EU ruling the government said there would be a tax reduction on low sulphur fuel and we had low sulphur diesel for years before the bio was added and we never heard of any lubrication problems.

 

The the EU dictated that all off-road diesel (including for our boats) also had to be low sulphur so the cheapest way the refineries could meet this was to dye road diesel (low sulpher) red but because it was road diesel, DERV, it had to have the mandatory up to 7% bio in it. At that point the messy stuff hit the fan lead by the large agricultural contractors who leave equipment unused for months on end - a combine is not a lot of use in winter and spring - with at least one manufacturer covering their backs by issuing detailed instructions about purging the fuel in their equipment if the warranty was to be maintained. Then SOME refineries found that they could supply low sulphur red fuel without bio.

 

To be honest I have no idea where the lubricity thing came from but have seen it promulgated on here, but never with a source. We had low sulphur road fuel long before any bio content. My understanding is that there is a lubricity standard for the fuel and additives are used, when required, to ensure the fuel meets it. Personally I am not worried about it, but if I was I would simply add a small quantity of new lube oil to to the tank before filling, say a pint to perhaps 40 litres.

 

I think that the problems caused by the removal of lead from petrol re the valves may have caused some people assume something similar with injection equipment and jump to the wrong conclusion.

 

I would love to see a definitive statement plus source quoted to support the lubricity and bio thing.

[Up-Side-Down]

One thing may be considered certain and that is no major corporation is going to buy feed stock that is more expensive that others so in my view that rather discounts the added for lubricity. As far as I have been able to find out, but to be sure we really need someone with inside info from the fuels industry, bio was added to ROAD fuel because the EU said it had to be, nothing more and nothing less. As bio is more costly that petro-diesel I can not see them doing it voluntarily. Some years before that EU ruling the government said there would be a tax reduction on low sulphur fuel and we had low sulphur diesel for years before the bio was added and we never heard of any lubrication problems.

 

The the EU dictated that all off-road diesel (including for our boats) also had to be low sulphur so the cheapest way the refineries could meet this was to dye road diesel (low sulpher) red but because it was road diesel, DERV, it had to have the mandatory up to 7% bio in it. At that point the messy stuff hit the fan lead by the large agricultural contractors who leave equipment unused for months on end - a combine is not a lot of use in winter and spring - with at least one manufacturer covering their backs by issuing detailed instructions about purging the fuel in their equipment if the warranty was to be maintained. Then SOME refineries found that they could supply low sulphur red fuel without bio.

 

To be honest I have no idea where the lubricity thing came from but have seen it promulgated on here, but never with a source. We had low sulphur road fuel long before any bio content. My understanding is that there is a lubricity standard for the fuel and additives are used, when required, to ensure the fuel meets it. Personally I am not worried about it, but if I was I would simply add a small quantity of new lube oil to to the tank before filling, say a pint to perhaps 40 litres.

 

I think that the problems caused by the removal of lead from petrol re the valves may have caused some people assume something similar with injection equipment and jump to the wrong conclusion.

 

I would love to see a definitive statement plus source quoted to support the lubricity and bio thing.

[Up-Side-Down]

Thanks very much for that considered reply Tony.

 

Having spent the best part of 50 years being subject to the doctrine that sulphur = essential diesel fuel pump lubrication, I felt I should at least make an attempt to rise to your challenge of finding some chapter and verse on the matter. So making good use of Mr Google, as always, I went for a trawl round the WWW and soon lighted on this which appears to be some pretty Kosher research.

 

See what you think: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

 

If the fuel companies feel that 520 micron wear is now acceptable when using ULSD, yet 460 micron wear was the norm in pre-ULSD days, then we're looking at increased wear of approx 13%. If true, then I believe that this is not acceptable - but maybe this should all be taken with a pinch of salt. I look forward to your response based on many more years PRACTICAL experience than I can ever muster.

[benfordboy]

 

If the fuel companies feel that 520 micron wear is now acceptable when using ULSD, yet 460 micron wear was the norm in pre-ULSD days, then we're looking at increased wear of approx 13%. If true, then I believe that this is not acceptable - but maybe this should all be taken with a pinch of salt. I look forward to your response based on many more years PRACTICAL experience than I can ever muster.

 

I'm unsure of why you have decided to USE CAPS to refer to Tonys experience - Its of course his opinion & this is a forum where it is (Normally ) ones right to voice said opinion

Tony has on many occasions provided excellent advice & that is invaluable to many (not only via this forum) , I see this as a slight slur on his advice.

 

I'm not completely sure but I believe that one of the only refineries still producing High sulphur Red is Total (Lindsey), this was the case when I was last at the Refinery around 10 months ago working on the FCCU (It came up in conversation in the mess hut!). We still buy Total Oil at work for the FLT's & it sure smells like HSD !!!

 

Diesel bug is still possible without bio in the fuel ......

 

 

This was from Dads Tank a few years ago (Finally manifested in Blisworth Tunnel, luckily not on the Tideway down from Limehouse !)

 

Edit - Not Tank , it was the Lift pump contents !

Edited December 11, 2012 by benfordboy

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks very much for that considered reply Tony.

 

Having spent the best part of 50 years being subject to the doctrine that sulphur = essential diesel fuel pump lubrication, I felt I should at least make an attempt to rise to your challenge of finding some chapter and verse on the matter. So making good use of Mr Google, as always, I went for a trawl round the WWW and soon lighted on this which appears to be some pretty Kosher research.

 

See what you think: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

 

If the fuel companies feel that 520 micron wear is now acceptable when using ULSD, yet 460 micron wear was the norm in pre-ULSD days, then we're looking at increased wear of approx 13%. If true, then I believe that this is not acceptable - but maybe this should all be taken with a pinch of salt. I look forward to your response based on many more years PRACTICAL experience than I can ever muster.

 

 

I would want to see comparative studies of UK/EU fuel standards, not US ones. Better still I would like someone with first hand knowledge from the fuel industry comment.

 

Unless we know the UK/EU AND the US fuel standard we can not make any comparison or draw any conclusion. My impression is that the US standards are likley to be lower to aid corporate profitability, but thats just my gut feeling. I would also like to see academic research papers.

 

I'm unsure of why you have decided to USE CAPS to refer to Tonys experience - Its of course his opinion & this is a forum where it is (Normally ) ones right to voice said opinion

Tony has on many occasions provided excellent advice & that is invaluable to many (not only via this forum) , I see this as a slight slur on his advice.

 

I'm not completely sure but I believe that one of the only refineries still producing High sulphur Red is Total (Lindsey), this was the case when I was last at the Refinery around 10 months ago working on the FCCU (It came up in conversation in the mess hut!). We still buy Total Oil at work for the FLT's & it sure smells like HSD !!!

 

Diesel bug is still possible without bio in the fuel ......

 

 

This was from Dads Tank a few years ago (Finally manifested in Blisworth Tunnel, luckily not on the Tideway down from Limehouse !)

 

Edit - Not Tank , it was the Lift pump contents !

 

 

No need to defend me, he either gives credence to my views or does not. Regrettably I have no direct experience or data to back my views up.

 

I just wish more people would believe me when I say ANY diesel can develop bug, its just potentially worse with bio. But then we have at least one member who regularly states that he has no such problems and implies it has nothing to do with bio.

[Up-Side-Down]

I used CAPS to emphasise that Tony has the experience - while I'm just spouting theory and received wisdom. As such I could easily be talking through my proverbial hat and was wanting to make this clear - I'm very sorry if it wasn't.

 

The Grangemouth Refinery is certainly still producing Grade D high sulphur diesel and as you'll see from my previous post I have just been offered it at a couple of pence below the price of ULSD. This was what prompted my query to Tony and I have also held off filling my tanks until I can get to the bottom of the matter.

 

No, diesel bug is certainly not new. It's just that the incidence of it has increased considerably since bio was added to diesel due, as I understand it, to bio's hygroscopic nature which en-trains greater quantities of water in the fuel - thereby providing just the environment where the yeasts, microbes and bacteria can thrive.

[nb Innisfree]

As regards lubricity I add 2 stroke oil to our diesel Transit mk5 camper at a rate of 100-200:1 and it definitely quietens the engine down, whether this is due to a quieter pump or quieter combustion I have no idea but it does make the old gal purr.

 

Makes no difference to economy though.

[Richard10002]

I used CAPS to emphasise that Tony has the experience - while I'm just spouting theory and received wisdom. As such I could easily be talking through my proverbial hat and was wanting to make this clear - I'm very sorry if it wasn't.

 

I knew exactly what you meant. It was a kind of bowing to Gibbos experience..... Albeit he subsequently suggested that he perhaps wasn't as experienced as you intimated

[Tony Brooks]

I used CAPS to emphasise that Tony has the experience - while I'm just spouting theory and received wisdom. As such I could easily be talking through my proverbial hat and was wanting to make this clear - I'm very sorry if it wasn't.

 

The Grangemouth Refinery is certainly still producing Grade D high sulphur diesel and as you'll see from my previous post I have just been offered it at a couple of pence below the price of ULSD. This was what prompted my query to Tony and I have also held off filling my tanks until I can get to the bottom of the matter.

 

No, diesel bug is certainly not new. It's just that the incidence of it has increased considerably since bio was added to diesel due, as I understand it, to bio's hygroscopic nature which en-trains greater quantities of water in the fuel - thereby providing just the environment where the yeasts, microbes and bacteria can thrive.

 

 

I think that you would be in breach of EU and thus UK regulation if you used high sulphur fuel in an inland craft, quiet how you will get caught is open to question.

 

I can not remember exactly when the UK went low sulphur but it was years before adding bio and I have not got wind of any increase in injection equipment wear. I am a member of the Institute of Transport Engineers and if a problem had occurred then I am sure the E Stobarts of this world would have made sure the whole trade knew about it.

 

Edited to add: Remember modern 2 stroke oil runs at about 100:1 or higher so thats i litre of oil to 100 litres of fuel. If it lubricates a high revving 2 stroke I am sure it will be fine in a diesel pump running at half engine speed and virtually no side thrust on the elements.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Tony Brooks

[Up-Side-Down]

I would want to see comparative studies of UK/EU fuel standards, not US ones. Better still I would like someone with first hand knowledge from the fuel industry comment.

 

Unless we know the UK/EU AND the US fuel standard we can not make any comparison or draw any conclusion. My impression is that the US standards are likley to be lower to aid corporate profitability, but thats just my gut feeling. I would also like to see academic research papers.

 

On reflection I can see that it is more than likely that there will be a difference between UK/EU fuel standards and those in the US - and the cynic in me does tend to concur with your gut reaction Tony.

 

Nevertheless, do you think I might be justified in drawing two conclusions from this research?

 

i) That wear is reduced by the presence of sulphur in fuel - albeit, by just how much, is a matter open to debate, as it is likely that we and our US cousins might well be working from different base lines.

 

ii) That additives (be they bio-diesel; sulphur; engine oil or whatever) clearly reduce wear in metal to metal surfaces and that this is significant in what is surely the diesel engine's most delicate (and expensive) component - namely the injector pump.

 

My concern reaches way beyond my own indifferent lump (of which there are plenty of examples around) and is ultimately focused on those Kelvins, Gardners, Russell Newbery's and the like which, apart from being objects of engineering excellence and visual/audio beauty, are a part of our heritage and increasingly difficult to source spares for.

 

In my ignorance I'm afraid I don't know to what extent the fuel provides lubrication or whether there is a direct tapping to the engine oil. I recall that in earlier Ford tractors there was a small plug on the in-line Simms injectors that you unscrewed, and poured in oil, as part of the regular routine maintenance regime.

 

 

 

 

No need to defend me, he either gives credence to my views or does not. Regrettably I have no direct experience or data to back my views up.

 

I just wish more people would believe me when I say ANY diesel can develop bug, its just potentially worse with bio. But then we have at least one member who regularly states that he has no such problems and implies it has nothing to do with bio.

 

On reflection I can see that it is more than likely that there will be a difference between UK/EU fuel standards and those in the US - and the cynic in me does tend to concur with your gut reaction Tony.

 

Nevertheless, do you think I might be justified in drawing two conclusions from this research?

 

i) That wear is reduced by the presence of sulphur in fuel - albeit, by just how much, is a matter open to debate, as it is likely that we and our US cousins might well be working from different base lines.

 

ii) That additives (be they bio-diesel; sulphur; engine oil or whatever) clearly reduce wear in metal to metal surfaces and that this is significant in what is surely the diesel engine's most delicate (and expensive) component - namely the injector pump.

 

My concern reaches way beyond my own indifferent lump (of which there are plenty of examples around) and is ultimately focused on those Kelvins, Gardners, Russell Newbery's and the like which, apart from being objects of engineering excellence and visual/audio beauty, are a part of our heritage and increasingly difficult to source spares for.

 

In my ignorance I'm afraid I don't know to what extent the fuel provides lubrication or whether there is a direct tapping to the engine oil. I recall that in earlier Ford tractors there was a small plug on the in-line Simms injector pump that you unscrewed, and poured in oil, as part of the regular routine maintenance regime.

[Tony Brooks]

On reflection I can see that it is more than likely that there will be a difference between UK/EU fuel standards and those in the US - and the cynic in me does tend to concur with your gut reaction Tony.

 

Nevertheless, do you think I might be justified in drawing two conclusions from this research?

 

i) That wear is reduced by the presence of sulphur in fuel - albeit, by just how much, is a matter open to debate, as it is likely that we and our US cousins might well be working from different base lines.

 

ii) That additives (be they bio-diesel; sulphur; engine oil or whatever) clearly reduce wear in metal to metal surfaces and that this is significant in what is surely the diesel engine's most delicate (and expensive) component - namely the injector pump.

 

My concern reaches way beyond my own indifferent lump (of which there are plenty of examples around) and is ultimately focused on those Kelvins, Gardners, Russell Newbery's and the like which, apart from being objects of engineering excellence and visual/audio beauty, are a part of our heritage and increasingly difficult to source spares for.

 

In my ignorance I'm afraid I don't know to what extent the fuel provides lubrication or whether there is a direct tapping to the engine oil. I recall that in earlier Ford tractors there was a small plug on the in-line Simms injector pump that you unscrewed, and poured in oil, as part of the regular routine maintenance regime.

 

 

The oil reservoir on some aniline pumps or the feed from the engine oil gallery only lubricated the camshaft and roller followers, not the elements.

 

A Micron is 1 thousandth of a mm so it is very, very small. The talk about a wear scar assumes we know how the measurement is obtained AND the surfaces in contact. If the measurement is depth then may be we should worry but if it is length then that is totally different. If it is width the "track" the ball was rolling on has some bearing on the size. I note that the test in no way attempts to simulate the linear movement in a finely machined hole made by the injection pump element or plunger and also does not simulate the high pressure "flush" that must occour to a minor degree each time the element or plunger produces the injection pulse.

 

Quiet how 90 minuets of messing about with a ball bearing equates to a lifetime of maybe 6mm of vertical movement in an injector pump is a bit beyond me. I come back to those years when we had bio-free low sulphur diesel and no reports of excess wear. Mr Stobart's trucks would do more hours in a year than most narrowboats do in a lifetime and I suspect at higher RPMs - especially when compared with the engines listed.

 

As far as I am concerned I am far more worried about seal deterioration on DPA and rotary pumps caused by the bio and the need to get every owner with that type of pump to be aware and to keep a close eye on their engine oil level. Next in order of my concern is the need to get all owners to take the risk of diesel bug seriously and decide how they will deal with that risk.

 

Next comes the lack of knowledge among many boaters about how the systems work and how to bleed them. Only after that comes the possibility of increased wear and to be honest I doubt it has any relevance during the lifetime of typical owners. Even the young ones are likely to have changed boats before there is any issues - if there are to be any.

 

This is not the first thread in which I have asked an industry expert to comment and note that once again there has been none. This either indicates there is no problem or there is a conspiracy. I do not believe that this forum has no members who are qualified to give chapter and verse. I know one member of the CBOA is an ex CAV design engineer so would be able to give a definitive reply. It was he who told me at an IRTE conference that there was not a lubricity problem in the UK because additives were used to maintain it.

[dmr]

I reckon this forum has gone a bit downhill of late, so this is the sort of thread that restores my confidence...loads of good technical information!

A couple of thoughts...

If low lubricity is an issue with low sulphur fuel then a proper additive could be used instead of two stroke oil.

Stanadyne Performance Formula is highly regarded, after all it comes from someone who knows about injector pumps!

Only problem is that it adds about 3p per litre to the fuel bill!

 

The contribution from Up-Side-Down is very interesting but I am confused.

Is domestic heating oil really grade D high Sulphur Diesel??? I have heard of "knowledgeable people" running engines on heating oil and they claimed that it has low lubricity and requires additives to rectify this. I had assumed that heating oil was a little different to what we regard as diesel.

Any thoughts on this?

 

..........Dave

[Up-Side-Down]

I reckon this forum has gone a bit downhill of late, so this is the sort of thread that restores my confidence...loads of good technical information!

A couple of thoughts...

If low lubricity is an issue with low sulphur fuel then a proper additive could be used instead of two stroke oil.

Stanadyne Performance Formula is highly regarded, after all it comes from someone who knows about injector pumps!

Only problem is that it adds about 3p per litre to the fuel bill!

 

The contribution from Up-Side-Down is very interesting but I am confused.

Is domestic heating oil really grade D high Sulphur Diesel??? I have heard of "knowledgeable people" running engines on heating oil and they claimed that it has low lubricity and requires additives to rectify this. I had assumed that heating oil was a little different to what we regard as diesel.

Any thoughts on this?

 

..........Dave

 

The link in my post No 13 shows, amongst other things, the comparative effectiveness of Stanadyne's product taken from an American trial. Obviously this needs to be viewed in the light of Tony's subsequent observations.

 

I realise that my original post, that mentions Grade D diesel, was pretty 'information heavy' and could easily cause confusion for which I apologise. I was just trying to set my observations/questions in the context of what I'd learnt.

 

Grade D diesel is the old (pre 1/1/11) high sulphur content, red diesel that we all used before EU regulations more or less prohibited its use in anything but heating appliances and generators. As such it is 35 sec gas oil as distinct from 28 sec kerosene - or heating oil - and therefore thicker. I believe the 'sec' refers to the time taken for a given quantity to pass through an orifice of a prescribed size - but I'm sure Tony will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I agree with your comments about 'good technical information!' I feel that Tony has, over the months, screwed down the diesel bug issue to a set of cut and dried recommendations and given us all an excellent understanding of what's going on and the strategy needed to come out on top of the situation. Peripheral to this, is the lubricity issue surrounding ULSD - especially where no bio is added. Again I think he's nailed this one - in the course of this thread - as far as he is able without input from the injector pump companies and the fuel companies.

[Up-Side-Down]

The oil reservoir on some aniline pumps or the feed from the engine oil gallery only lubricated the camshaft and roller followers, not the elements.

 

A Micron is 1 thousandth of a mm so it is very, very small. The talk about a wear scar assumes we know how the measurement is obtained AND the surfaces in contact. If the measurement is depth then may be we should worry but if it is length then that is totally different. If it is width the "track" the ball was rolling on has some bearing on the size. I note that the test in no way attempts to simulate the linear movement in a finely machined hole made by the injection pump element or plunger and also does not simulate the high pressure "flush" that must occour to a minor degree each time the element or plunger produces the injection pulse.

 

Quiet how 90 minuets of messing about with a ball bearing equates to a lifetime of maybe 6mm of vertical movement in an injector pump is a bit beyond me. I come back to those years when we had bio-free low sulphur diesel and no reports of excess wear. Mr Stobart's trucks would do more hours in a year than most narrowboats do in a lifetime and I suspect at higher RPMs - especially when compared with the engines listed.

 

As far as I am concerned I am far more worried about seal deterioration on DPA and rotary pumps caused by the bio and the need to get every owner with that type of pump to be aware and to keep a close eye on their engine oil level. Next in order of my concern is the need to get all owners to take the risk of diesel bug seriously and decide how they will deal with that risk.

 

Next comes the lack of knowledge among many boaters about how the systems work and how to bleed them. Only after that comes the possibility of increased wear and to be honest I doubt it has any relevance during the lifetime of typical owners. Even the young ones are likely to have changed boats before there is any issues - if there are to be any.

 

This is not the first thread in which I have asked an industry expert to comment and note that once again there has been none. This either indicates there is no problem or there is a conspiracy. I do not believe that this forum has no members who are qualified to give chapter and verse. I know one member of the CBOA is an ex CAV design engineer so would be able to give a definitive reply. It was he who told me at an IRTE conference that there was not a lubricity problem in the UK because additives were used to maintain it.

 

Tony, many thanks for taking so much trouble to provide such a comprehensive and far ranging reply.

 

It provides the bigger picture which was the motive behind my making my original post. There is lots to think on here and it has also improved my overall understanding of the injection side of a diesel engine - particularly that there are two separate and distinct areas where the IP requires lubrication: one that can be fed from an engine oil gallery etc and one reliant on the passage of fuel.

 

The aching silence on the part of the fuel companies on this issue leaves me feeling slightly suspicious. One statement could answer a lot of these questions - silence leaves me wondering if there is something to hide or at least that there are areas of concern.

[Yamanx]

As regards lubricity I add 2 stroke oil to our diesel Transit mk5 camper at a rate of 100-200:1 and it definitely quietens the engine down, whether this is due to a quieter pump or quieter combustion I have no idea but it does make the old gal purr.

 

Makes no difference to economy though.

 

That's interesting, does it produce the smell of a two stroke?

 

 

Now where did I store than old can of R40?