Which boat for canals and rivers

[Guest]

Yes, you don't want to be leaving Ramsgate Harbour in a Force 5 and thumbing through the surveyor's report to find it's only a Cat D!

 

Aye aye Captain...

[John V]

Yes, you don't want to be leaving Ramsgate Harbour in a Force 5 and thumbing through the surveyor's report to find it's only a Cat D!

 

You don't want to be leaving anywhere in a force 5. Pleasure boating is for pleasure...stay tied up next to the pub.

[blackrose]

You don't want to be leaving anywhere in a force 5. Pleasure boating is for pleasure...stay tied up next to the pub.

 

I wouldn't either, but plenty of people do go out in those conditions even in barges.

 

And some live to regret it!

 

[John V]

You mean the lucky ones live to regret it! Last week was off the North Devon coast in a 7 (same one in which that yachtswoman was lost) we were in a hundred ton tug and rolled our guts out....but then we were being paid for it....when I'm not being paid I'm the original fair weather sailor and proud of it!!!

[bowten]

I wouldn't either, but plenty of people do go out in those conditions even in barges.

 

And some live to regret it!

 

Bloody hell,I wonder where his stove ended up.

[Kiwipeter]

I don't know about Sagar in particular, but I know other builders of Dutch-style barges will have optional spec and some may not meet RCD Cat C so if you're buying a second hand barge it's wise not to assume it's going to be Cat C.

 

Piper (my favourite) will build barges to Cat C or B.

 

http://www.piperboats.com/dutch_images.html

 

Sagar built to their structural standard not the buyer's ie it was our way or the highway (which is why Steven Sagar had a reputation as 'occasionally difficult'). I guess after building 50 odd Dutch barges they felt they knew what made a good (but expensive) one.

 

Peter

Edited October 25, 2012 by Kiwipeter

[arpeeuk]

Don't rule out the lorry option.

 

My uncle had a boat on the Broads for a while and stuck it on a lorry to France. If I remember correctly it was put on on a French canal not far from Calais and he cruised all over the country from there.

[Proper Job]

Looking tor live aboard boat for retirement.

Started looking at narowboats a few months ago and it's still a possibility.

However, is there a type of cruiser for larger canals and rivers that would also cross the channel on the right day?

What's the technical name for such a boat?

Would like to tour the UK and France if possible.

Only need 2 berths and used to living in compact accommodation.

Thanks

I realise that the Topic has drifted toward DB's and cruisers, but in your OP you say that you want to tour the UK and France.

 

Once you go above 7' beam you will reduce your ability to tour many parts of the UK. You may also very much restrict your ability to tour 'wide canals' dependent on air draft.

 

You may want to consider buying a narrow boat to do the UK bit and then, when you're ready for the continent, flog it and buy something suitable for continental waters (which, in my opinion an NB is not).

Edited October 25, 2012 by Proper Job

[John V]

 

You may want to consider buying a narrow boat to do the UK bit and then, when you're ready for the continent, flog it and but something suitable for continental waters (which, in my opinion an NB is not).

 

I think you might have hit the nail on the head.....horses for courses!

[carlt]

You may want to consider buying a narrow boat to do the UK bit and then, when you're ready for the continent, flog it and buy something suitable for continental waters (which, in my opinion an NB is not).

Or hire a narrowboat for the bits a real boat won't fit then you don't have the risk of having to sell a boat you didn't really want.

 

I don't see the point in making a huge financial commitment on something that you won't want long term(I was tempted to say "investment" but you will certainly lose money on it).

[Proper Job]

Or hire a narrowboat for the bits a real boat won't fit then you don't have the risk of having to sell a boat you didn't really want.

 

I don't see the point in making a huge financial commitment on something that you won't want long term(I was tempted to say "investment" but you will certainly lose money on it).

Fair point, but if you wanted to spend 2 - 3 years CC'ing around the UK, that's a big hire charge. The hire costs would probably exceed the depresiation rate of the boat.

 

I would say, go for a full 70' and then hire for the few bits that a full 70' can't go along.

[johnofyork]

Don't rule out the lorry option.

 

My uncle had a boat on the Broads for a while and stuck it on a lorry to France. If I remember correctly it was put on on a French canal not far from Calais and he cruised all over the country from there.

 

 

Brilliant idea, could be a cheaper option

 

I realise that the Topic has drifted toward DB's and cruisers, but in your OP you say that you want to tour the UK and France.

 

Once you go above 7' beam you will reduce your ability to tour many parts of the UK. You may also very much restrict your ability to tour 'wide canals' dependent on air draft.

 

You may want to consider buying a narrow boat to do the UK bit and then, when you're ready for the continent, flog it and buy something suitable for continental waters (which, in my opinion an NB is not).

 

 

Quite a few good points, NB not really suited to a lot of continental waterways

 

Or hire a narrowboat for the bits a real boat won't fit then you don't have the risk of having to sell a boat you didn't really want.

 

I don't see the point in making a huge financial commitment on something that you won't want long term(I was tempted to say "investment" but you will certainly lose money on it).

 

 

Looking like best option so far. Buy boat for continental waters and larger UK where I would spend most of my time, hire for the smaller routes

[carlt]

Looking like best option so far. Buy boat for continental waters and larger UK where I would spend most of my time, hire for the smaller routes

One of the boats I like and would happily liveaboard is the Project 31/ Senior31/ Princess 32 type cruisers which are all based on the same hull but have topsides and fitouts by different builders.

 

They have loads of living space, suitable for coastal work and have a shallow draft for inland waters.

 

 

Clicky

[ditchcrawler]

I realise that the Topic has drifted toward DB's and cruisers, but in your OP you say that you want to tour the UK and France.

 

Once you go above 7' beam you will reduce your ability to tour many parts of the UK. You may also very much restrict your ability to tour 'wide canals' dependent on air draft.

 

You may want to consider buying a narrow boat to do the UK bit and then, when you're ready for the continent, flog it and buy something suitable for continental waters (which, in my opinion an NB is not).

I have just watched Nick Saunders taking his pair across to the Black Sea again. Not my style of boating.

[Tam & Di]

Yes, you don't want to be leaving Ramsgate Harbour in a Force 5 and thumbing through the surveyor's report to find it's only a Cat D!

 

As John V says, don't do it! On the other hand for a simple one-off crossing, well lots of boats do it that were built long before categories A-Z were dreamt up. I'm not talking of irresponsibility - you have a boat you've been with for some time and know it is reliable, fit it with all the essential safety and navigation gear, put everything movable into locked cupboards, you know exactly what you are doing or you have someone on board who does, you choose your weather window very carefully, and you go. You maybe even go with another vessel so you can look after each other. If you want to cruise round the coast of Britain like Timothy Spall, yes you need a Category C or whatever. I'm a person who gets nervous if the water's too deep to step into it wearing wellies, but sometimes you just assess the risk and do things. I've certainly seen new-build "barges" here that are built to Cat. C, have crossed the Channel, but then have the prop shaft shear or the gearbox come loose. It's no guarantee of safety, that's sure.

 

Problems arise as often from the lack of skill and unpreparedness of the skipper as any other means.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Tam & Di

[Dave_P]

Looking tor live aboard boat for retirement.

Started looking at narowboats a few months ago and it's still a possibility.

However, is there a type of cruiser for larger canals and rivers that would also cross the channel on the right day?

What's the technical name for such a boat?

Would like to tour the UK and France if possible.

Only need 2 berths and used to living in compact accommodation.

Thanks

 

Hope I gave you some good advice the other day! Was my boat too narrow for you then?

 

If you get anything wider than a narrowboat, then you can't cruise around a lot of the network (see: http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/mwp.php?wpage=Inland-Waterways-of-England.htm) but don't forget that wider boats often find things more tricky even on wide canals. There's plenty of places where you need to book in advance with a widebeam (tunnels, narrow cuts, floating towpaths) which add to the complexity of cruising with a wide-beam or dutch barge. Also, theres no way through from south to north in anything wider than a narrowboat.In my experience, people who want to continuously cruise in England and Wales buy narrowboats. People who want somewhere spacious to live and arent concerned about moving around too much buy widebeams.

 

Of course you were asking about something seaworthy. But why? Just to get across the channel or because you genuinly want to 'sail the seven seas'? If you just want to get across the channel, then a narrowboat is still a perfectly good choice.

 

You have 2 options:

 

1. Do lots of preparation and cruise your nb across when it's calm. There are people who have done this. Read 'Narrow dog to Carcassonne' if you don't believe me.

 

2. Put your boat on a lorry, as has already been suggested. And cross the channel that way.

 

 

If I were you, that's what I'd do. That way, you get to cruise the whole network over here (a lot of the best canals are narrow) and you get to have some continental adventures too. Even with the cost of lorry transport, it will probably still be much cheaper than a proper cat c barge.

 

Remember anything wider than 7' (and in practise often 6'10") and you will be severely restricted in your UK cruising.

 

Finally, i don't really know enough about grp boats to comment fully except to say that the size restrictions still apply so I'd recommend something which would fit on narrow canals, in which case get a narrowboat (which is much nicer anyway)!!

 

Finally: Geoff - when you finally get your boat, I'm expecting a tour and a cuppa!

[George94]

Just bear in mind that there are barges and there are barges...

 

Any barge bought with the prospect of crossing the channel in should be built or upgraded to the Category C of the Recreational Craft Directive. Many Dutch-style barges are only actually built to Category D (sheltered inland waters).

 

Although that is true, I believe it is usually possible to get your insurer to cover you for a Channel crossing, provided you go in fine weather. Force 4 or less.

 

All the real Dutch barges got to the UK by sea, whatever their classification.

 

ETA: Just seen that Tam has said much the same.

Edited October 25, 2012 by George94

[George94]

I think that the classification system makes sense for boats which an owner might wish to take out to sea, but it's not really so important for barges. Apart from crossing the Channel (in good weather), nobody in their right mind would want to cruise a barge off-shore. Unlike a proper sailing boat with a keel and a sail to steady her, the motion of a barge in a seaway is truly awful.

 

It's bad enough in the Pool of London when a RIB goes past.

[johnofyork]

Hope I gave you some good advice the other day! Was my boat too narrow for you then?

 

If you get anything wider than a narrowboat, then you can't cruise around a lot of the network (see: http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/mwp.php?wpage=Inland-Waterways-of-England.htm) but don't forget that wider boats often find things more tricky even on wide canals. There's plenty of places where you need to book in advance with a widebeam (tunnels, narrow cuts, floating towpaths) which add to the complexity of cruising with a wide-beam or dutch barge. Also, theres no way through from south to north in anything wider than a narrowboat.In my experience, people who want to continuously cruise in England and Wales buy narrowboats. People who want somewhere spacious to live and arent concerned about moving around too much buy widebeams.

 

Of course you were asking about something seaworthy. But why? Just to get across the channel or because you genuinly want to 'sail the seven seas'? If you just want to get across the channel, then a narrowboat is still a perfectly good choice.

 

You have 2 options:

 

1. Do lots of preparation and cruise your nb across when it's calm. There are people who have done this. Read 'Narrow dog to Carcassonne' if you don't believe me.

 

2. Put your boat on a lorry, as has already been suggested. And cross the channel that way.

 

 

If I were you, that's what I'd do. That way, you get to cruise the whole network over here (a lot of the best canals are narrow) and you get to have some continental adventures too. Even with the cost of lorry transport, it will probably still be much cheaper than a proper cat c barge.

 

Remember anything wider than 7' (and in practise often 6'10") and you will be severely restricted in your UK cruising.

 

Finally, i don't really know enough about grp boats to comment fully except to say that the size restrictions still apply so I'd recommend something which would fit on narrow canals, in which case get a narrowboat (which is much nicer anyway)!!

 

Finally: Geoff - when you finally get your boat, I'm expecting a tour and a cuppa!

 

 

Hi Dave

Thanks for the extra advice, no your boat was not too narrow at all (it's really what I want) . I'm still throwing it all about and as it's a retirement project I thought why not do it in France too, where it's a bit warmer in winter. I agree with your point about going over the top and the extra expense just to cross the channel maybe once or twice. (and lose out here too). I'm back to the narrowboat and transporting it by road, looks like the cheapest and best option. If they are not ideal for all canals in France, I'll just be more selective over there. I also take the point of not being able to transit North to South easily.

Daft question: When say transiting a busy canal with commercial traffic in France. Could you fit a stabiliser of some kind??

Don't worry, I'll invite you over for a tour!

Geoff

[johnofyork]

Anyone have a very rough idea of how much it costs to transport a NB across the channel?

Just thinking about the canals used by heavy commercial trafic. Can a NB turn over easily? Presumably self righting?

[Guest]

Anyone have a very rough idea of how much it costs to transport a NB across the channel?

Just thinking about the canals used by heavy commercial trafic. Can a NB turn over easily? Presumably self righting?

 

Narrowboats do not self right.

 

They also don't generally turn over easily....that is on a canal or a suitable river, they could crossing the channel though.

[OldGoat]

I realise that the Topic has drifted toward DB's and cruisers, but in your OP you say that you want to tour the UK and France.

 

Once you go above 7' beam you will reduce your ability to tour many parts of the UK. You may also very much restrict your ability to tour 'wide canals' dependent on air draft.

 

You may want to consider buying a narrow boat to do the UK bit and then, when you're ready for the continent, flog it and buy something suitable for continental waters (which, in my opinion an NB is not).

 

 

I was just about to put a frsh post echoing the above. I'll be very rigid and say it's horses for courses. NBs work reasonably well on most UK canals and rivers because they and the waters are small. Remember that once upon a time the Thames was a small tributary of the Rhine..

The continental canals and rivers were mostly built for large barge traffice and many remain so.

 

The facilities for private boats are indifferent (was going to say poor) when compared with what we have over here.

The locks are large so not well suited to NBs or stretched NB format (Lock gear and furniture)

Fuel point and pumpouts - the latter are almost non existent.

Having a barge type format, Tjalk, Penichette, whatever work much better because they have the storage space for fuel, generators and the like.

 

Europe ic colder than England in the winter and hotter almost everywhere in the summer. In 30 -35 degree heat a NB can be diabolical.

 

To be sensible you have two main choices:-

Get a NB and enjoy our canal and river system

OR

Get a "proper" dutch barge, either a native design or something like a Sagar NOT a narrow boat transmogrified in beam with a wheelhouse on the top.

You then can cruise the continent and the British rivers

 

A half way house will be a total compromise.

 

DO the research - there's a lot of info around on the web.

[Guest]

Just as there are boats that suit the whole of the UK system there are boats that suit the whole of the continental system

 

Just as there are boats that suit parts of the UK system there are boats that suit parts of the continental system.

 

If you are content with cruising parts of either system you don't need to have a boat suitable for all of it.

[carlt]

To be sensible you have two main choices:-

Get a NB and enjoy our canal and river system

OR

Get a "proper" dutch barge, either a native design or something like a Sagar NOT a narrow boat transmogrified in beam with a wheelhouse on the top.

Really?

 

Only two choices?

 

How very depressing.

[George94]

Narrowboats do not self right.

 

They also don't generally turn over easily....that is on a canal or a suitable river, they could crossing the channel though.

 

I suspect they would if the ballast and internal fittings were fixed securely.