Where to stand

[blackrose]

I know -

 

So did Alan.

[nb Innisfree]

Hasn't there been at least one fatal instance where someone was swept off the counter by the tiller and ended up being dragged under the counter by the prop action?

 

I have a vague recollection that it was a hirer on the Oxford Canal, but cannot remember any details.

 

A quite rare but regular accident over the years, main problem I think is people being unaware of the likely consequences of falling backwards from a boat while the prop is in reverse, not being aware of the principle of a prop that in certain circumstances becomes a lethal bit of equipment. This is the main danger, prop will draw you into it, with fatal results.

 

Sadly this will continue on a regular basis unless it is actively tackled. My proposal which I have mentioned before is for the gearbox control to be spring loaded in such a way that it has to be held in reverse by the steerer, if he lets go (when falling overboard) it will automatically go into neutral and the (by now wet and floundering) steerer won't have the added problem of being chopped to pieces. This system doesn't rely on any conscious measures such as enabling auto kill switches and the like, in any case these would have to be overridden when moored up and charging batteries etc.

[Proper Job]

My proposal which I have mentioned before is for the gearbox control to be spring loaded in such a way that it has to be held in reverse by the steerer, if he lets go (when falling overboard) it will automatically go into neutral and the (by now wet and floundering) steerer won't have the added problem of being chopped to pieces. This system doesn't rely on any conscious measures such as enabling auto kill switches and the like, in any case these would have to be overridden when moored up and charging batteries etc.

Not something that would work for me. I regularly reverse a mile or so from my mooring on my own. I stick the engine in reverse at about 300 rpm and then go to the bow to steer.

 

I would have to over-ride such a system

[Nine of Hearts]

Sadly this will continue on a regular basis ...

 

Regular basis??? Really? On what planet is this a regular occurence? It's a pretty rare event on the one I live on.

[nb Innisfree]

Not something that would work for me. I regularly reverse a mile or so from my mooring on my own. I stick the engine in reverse at about 300 rpm and then go to the bow to steer.

 

I would have to over-ride such a system

 

Fair enough, even though I would consider that a potentially dangerous thing to do anyway, IMO it's up to a private individual to do as they wish as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else, but I do think my idea should be compulsory on hire boats.

Edited October 24, 2012 by nb Innisfree

[Proper Job]

Fair enough, even though I would consider that a potentially dangerous thing to do anyway, it's up to a private individual to do as they wish as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else IMO, but I think my idea should be compulsory on hire boats.

Steering the boat from the bow with a pole is a bloody sight less dangerous (and easier) than trying to steer from the back and risk being swept off the stern by the tiller and being chopped up by the prop

 

IMO

[nb Innisfree]

Regular basis??? Really? On what planet is this a regular occurence? It's a pretty rare event on the one I live on.

 

I did say it was rare event.

[Proper Job]

I did say it was rare event.

"A quite rare but regular accident over the years..........."

 

I think it's this bit that confuses

[nb Innisfree]

Steering the boat from the bow with a pole is a bloody sight less dangerous (and easier) than trying to steer from the back and risk being swept off the stern by the tiller and being chopped up by the prop

 

IMO leaving the tiller and controls is a bloody potentially dangerous thing to do.

 

"A quite rare but regular accident over the years..........."

 

I think it's this bit that confuses

 

Some are easily confused.

[Nine of Hearts]

"A quite rare but regular accident over the years..........."

 

I think it's this bit that confuses

 

Perhaps it means that it doesn't happen often, but when it does one produces a solid stool?

[Proper Job]

IMO leaving the tiller and controls is a bloody potentially dangerous thing to do.

Not to me....

 

I'm well away from that nasty wirry, choppy, propellor thingy

[nb Innisfree]

Though this kind of accident is rare it does result in horrific and traumatic scenes, especially for families who witness it and to dismiss such things on the basis of being rare is missing the point.

Some objecting to me voicing this won't stop me saying so as I think the dangers have to be made loud and clear for those people who are unaware of them, especially holiday makers who haven't been warned, I have yet to come across any who have been made aware by hire firms despite claims by some that they do warn hirers.

[Magic Potion]

UCC at Braunston warned us about staying clear of the tiller arm when we hired at easter.

[nb Innisfree]

UCC at Braunston warned us about staying clear of the tiller arm when we hired at easter.

 

Yes I am sure that some do warn but having personally asked dozens of hirers none of them had been made aware. At the risk of taking a bit of the shine from their holiday and being known as the boater full of doom and gloom I would feel a bit uneasy if I didn't warn them.

Edited October 24, 2012 by nb Innisfree

[ditchcrawler]

Regular basis??? Really? On what planet is this a regular occurence? It's a pretty rare event on the one I live on.

In the course of a year I probably reverse 2-3 miles in total, probably half a mile at a time but sometimes a mile

[alan_fincher]

I think anyone who has trained hirers, (and I have many years ago), will tell you that however much effort the trainer puts in, there is only so much information even the most attentive hirer will take in.

 

Its not just about not spreading doom and gloom about what can happen, you have to try and judge your audience, and try and leave them as safe as possible, given their attention span and apparent retentiveness. More time will not always help, as they reach saturation point, just wanting to be got going on their own, and probably to lose the instructor as soon as they can.

 

The news reports about the Cropredy inquest acknowledge that the crew had (rightly or wrongly) been instructed in ways of operating, and were trying to adhere to it. It is a shame the full facts don't get published, and an interested member of the public cannot apparently get hold of an inquest report, however useful the information it contains might be in the public domain. For whatever reason the best we appear to be able to glean is that the steerer chose to leave the tiller for a while to attend to something else, and that seems to have been her downfall, particularly as the boat appears to have been left in gear. They had worked quite a lot of locks by this stage, and I imagine she felt confident enough by then to not feel she was risk taking ?

 

One thing that worries me is that the MAIB report clearly calls into question the safety of low rails around the sterns of many boats, and of course many hire boats. In that case it is recorded that the unfortunate steerer actually ended up hanging upside down over it for a while, more or less proving it helped to ensure he entered the water head first, (and I believe died as a result of head injuries?). The Kate boats boat at Cropredy has, (and still has) the same low rails - as do many of theirs and other fleets. So although the MAIB made recommendations on this point, they seem to have been ignored, and hire boats remain largely unchanged.

[Nine of Hearts]

In the course of a year I probably reverse 2-3 miles in total, probably half a mile at a time but sometimes a mile

 

So how many times in all those years and miles have you fallen in and been reduced to cat food by the prop? I'm guessing 0, but correct me if I'm wrong...

[nb Innisfree]

I think anyone who has trained hirers, (and I have many years ago), will tell you that however much effort the trainer puts in, there is only so much information even the most attentive hirer will take in.

 

Its not just about not spreading doom and gloom about what can happen, you have to try and judge your audience, and try and leave them as safe as possible, given their attention span and apparent retentiveness. More time will not always help, as they reach saturation point, just wanting to be got going on their own, and probably to lose the instructor as soon as they can.

 

The news reports about the Cropredy inquest acknowledge that the crew had (rightly or wrongly) been instructed in ways of operating, and were trying to adhere to it. It is a shame the full facts don't get published, and an interested member of the public cannot apparently get hold of an inquest report, however useful the information it contains might be in the public domain. For whatever reason the best we appear to be able to glean is that the steerer chose to leave the tiller for a while to attend to something else, and that seems to have been her downfall, particularly as the boat appears to have been left in gear. They had worked quite a lot of locks by this stage, and I imagine she felt confident enough by then to not feel she was risk taking ?

 

One thing that worries me is that the MAIB report clearly calls into question the safety of low rails around the sterns of many boats, and of course many hire boats. In that case it is recorded that the unfortunate steerer actually ended up hanging upside down over it for a while, more or less proving it helped to ensure he entered the water head first, (and I believe died as a result of head injuries?). The Kate boats boat at Cropredy has, (and still has) the same low rails - as do many of theirs and other fleets. So although the MAIB made recommendations on this point, they seem to have been ignored, and hire boats remain largely unchanged.

 

I agree completely about the difficulties with trying to instil vital info it's for that reason that I believe the only realistic way to stop anyone getting minced by the prop is to adapt hardware to make it impossible for prop to be left unattended in reverse.

[bizzard]

Full suits of armour attached to a lifeline could be issued to people who are a bit wonky on their pins in case they fall off the back.

Only a few bruises should result if a rubber propeller is fitted. Everyone needs a good thrashing from time to time.

A strong wire cage could be erected around the propeller, it might even trap Eels and Crayfish in it which can be retrieved via the weed box, tasty.

[Guest]

UCC at Braunston warned us about staying clear of the tiller arm when we hired at easter.

 

Some Canaltime boats actually have a yellow arc to match the arc of the tiller painted on the counter with something like 'keep forward' painted alongside.

Edited October 24, 2012 by The Dog House

[blackrose]

I'm pretty sure the arc of my tiller isn't wide enough to be able to knock me off the back. The rudder hits the stern before that would happen.

[jelunga]

I mostly steer with my arse, except when I need to move the tiller a long way.

I use the small of my back because my cheeks are not as big as .............needed

[Keeping Up]

One thing that worries me is that the MAIB report clearly calls into question the safety of low rails around the sterns of many boats, and of course many hire boats. In that case it is recorded that the unfortunate steerer actually ended up hanging upside down over it for a while, more or less proving it helped to ensure he entered the water head first, (and I believe died as a result of head injuries?). The Kate boats boat at Cropredy has, (and still has) the same low rails - as do many of theirs and other fleets. So although the MAIB made recommendations on this point, they seem to have been ignored, and hire boats remain largely unchanged.

 

On the Llangollen this year we saw a hirer reverse into the bank at full speed and get knocked over the stern rails of his cruiser deck by the tiller. He ended up hanging from the rails, which meant that he was safely out of the water and was able to pull himself back on to the deck. If there had been no rails he would have been knocked straight off the deck into the water with dire consequences.

 

Of course incidents like this don't get reported, which can easily result in accident investigators hearing only about the accidents where someone is injured over the rails - potentially leading them to make recommendations that there should be no rails on cruiser sterns (I have heard of this being mooted) which would probably cause an increase in the number of serious accidents. I know that I would much rather have a rail around my deck

[nebulae]

When reversing,I always stand in the hatch.Very awkward to do anything else on our boat.When going forward,I sit on a comfy seat mounted on one of those Captains Perch things.Cant sit on the roof as I cant reach the tiller.Cant stand all the time as I am old.If the tiller is hard across we can still sit on the seats(just)I know some people think seats on the back are a bad idea and they are probably right.Certainly looks better without them.On the other hand they are quite high as the cabin of our boat is tall and so it would be very difficult to fall off the back.(Never have two people on the back when reversing)

[ditchcrawler]

So how many times in all those years and miles have you fallen in and been reduced to cat food by the prop? I'm guessing 0, but correct me if I'm wrong...

None. Last time I fell in it was at Napton trying to pole off the mud. I went in in about 30" of water , got mud on my bum and wet from head to foot, O and my cap stayed on.