K2 cold starting problems

[robkg]

Hi

I am looking for pointers.

My K2 is not modified for diesel cold starts, so I need the original petrol start to work.

It has been fine for a number of years, but recently has started playing up.

When turning over the engine it will fire on petrol but then won't keep running for more than a few seconds.

Further attempts result in running for even less time, only a couple of firings before stopping.

So far I have cleaned out the carb. jet, cleaned the plugs, and cleaned the magneto points.

All to no avail.

My next step would be to remove the magneto and send it to a specialist.

 

Any ideas?

 

Rob

[RLWP]

I seem to remember that the K3 in Alnwick has the petrol gear, and that they always only start her on diesel. Graham will be along soon to confirm or deny that

 

Richard

[Proper Job]

I think you should immediately remove said duff engine from the boat and swap it with my JP

 

Seriously.......

 

I would check the magneto. The vibration caused by the initial start up may be causing a wire to seperate somewhere and kill the spark.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Proper Job

[koukouvagia]

Have you checked and cleaned the points? Eta sorry, I see you've done that.

 

Try fitting new plugs.

Is the petrol stale?

 

My money would be on a faulty magneto. I had exactly the same symptoms before I had the magneto rebuilt.

 

 

.

Edited June 13, 2012 by koukouvagia

[NB Alnwick]

The two cylinder engine tends to be more temperamental, when starting, than the the bigger versions. Having said that, if you have the original Kelvin 24v electric starter and flywheel fitted and the injection timing is set correctly, it ought to start from cold on diesel. Starting on petrol should only be really necessary when the temperature inside the engine room is near or below freezing, or, if hand starting is the only option. We never use the petrol start mode because, we have a C.A.V./Lucas 'Thermostart' fitted for starting on diesel at very low temperatures but we haven't needed to use the 'Thermostart' (it isn't even connected at the moment) since the Winter of 2009/10.

 

If the engine does not have an electric starter, and hand starting is the only option, keeping the magneto, spark plugs and leads in tip top condition must be a very high priority.

[rjasmith]

I wonder whether your magneto needs its magnet remagnetising. The old iron magnet alloys do not have the same abilities of remanence that we are used to in todays permanent magnets.

 

The only answer is to get them re blasted from a powerful magnetiser every so often. Then, provided the windings, insulators and contacts are OK it should be back to giving fat sparks under compression once again.

 

I am suspicious that our K2 mag, despite having been rebuilt by Seaward Eng only 6 years ago and having not yet seen proper active service may need a trip to the remagnetiser already.

 

I have a Wico mag on a little Stuart Turner P5 that gives a fabulous spark whereas the Bosch FR4 on the K2 is far less spectacular by comparison.

 

Richard

[BEngo]

Hi

I am looking for pointers.

My K2 is not modified for diesel cold starts, so I need the original petrol start to work.

It has been fine for a number of years, but recently has started playing up.

When turning over the engine it will fire on petrol but then won't keep running for more than a few seconds.

Further attempts result in running for even less time, only a couple of firings before stopping.

So far I have cleaned out the carb. jet, cleaned the plugs, and cleaned the magneto points.

All to no avail.

My next step would be to remove the magneto and send it to a specialist.

 

Any ideas?

 

Rob

 

 

Because it fires when cold but then dies, that, to me, points more to fuel than sparks. I note you have cleaned the jet, but probably a good idea to rinse the carby out with the bottom plug and jet removed. Dust and airborne cr@p does tend to settle at the bottom of the carb and is easily drawn into the jet.

 

Check you have the injector drains open when starting. Part burnt diesel soots the plugs badly.

 

As well as cleaning the points, check the points gap is OK. I don't know which magneto you have so can't say what they should be.

 

If cleaning the carb out doesn't have any effect, then, after cleaning the plugs again, (the best are Champion K97F), stick them with the end in a gas ring (or a blowlamp if SWMBO is watching) and get the centre electrode nice and hot. Then try starting it with hot plugs. If it starts better then the problem is probably a tired magneto- In that event you could send it to Magneto Repairs in Stroud from whom I have had good service at a reasonable price (no other connection).

 

Regards

N

[robkg]

if you have the original Kelvin 24v electric starter and flywheel fitted and the injection timing is set correctly, it ought to start from cold on diesel....... If the engine does not have an electric starter, and hand starting is the only option, keeping the magneto, spark plugs and leads in tip top condition must be a very high priority.

 

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I am intruiged by your comments Alnwick, my engine has original 24v electric start and was a Seaward Engineering rebuild about eight years ago.

In that time the engine has never been possible to start cold on diesel. In fact unless it runs for more than a minute on petrol, it won't keep running when switched to diesel. Once warmed up it never misses a beat all day long.

My hunch is magneto needs remagnetising, but I will try the fuel suggestions and the "hot pugs test" before sending it away,

 

Rob

[bizzard]

It shouldn't be difficult to convert the magneto to coil ignition,utilizing the contact breaker and adding a condenser and coil.

[RLWP]

It shouldn't be difficult to convert the magneto to coil ignition,utilizing the contact breaker and adding a condenser and coil.

 

Equally, it shouldn't be difficult to convert to a nice, modern Beta. Neither of these suggestions is really the point

 

Richard

[bizzard]

Equally, it shouldn't be difficult to convert to a nice, modern Beta. Neither of these suggestions is really the point

 

Richard

Oh i dunno,if an engines needed to starts reliably.Converting magneto's for coil ignition was very common years ago.It could even be fixed up with electronic ignition,perhaps the Renix system from an old Volvo 340 would be the easiest, and why not govern the whole thing 'to boot' with an ECU.

[koukouvagia]

It shouldn't be difficult to convert the magneto to coil ignition,utilizing the contact breaker and adding a condenser and coil.

Yep, I've done it. The spark is so much beefier and I'm keeping my reconditioned magneto as a spare.

[RLWP]

Oh i dunno,if an engines needed to starts reliably.Converting magneto's for coil ignition was very common years ago.It could even be fixed up with electronic ignition,perhaps the Renix system from an old Volvo 340 would be the easiest, and why not govern the whole thing 'to boot' with an ECU.

 

Why not go by car?

 

Richard

[bizzard]

Why not go by car?

 

Richard

And if that's got a Kelvin engine in it it might not start either.

[koukouvagia]

I don't know whether this will help, but I was told this tip by the lighthouse keeper who used to look after my K2 when it powered a fog horn compressor on the Isle of Mann. He said he always held one hand over the air intake on the carburetor to increase the suction.

[RLWP]

I don't know whether this will help, but I was told this tip by the lighthouse keeper who used to look after my K2 when it powered a fog horn compressor on the Isle of Mann. He said he always held one hand over the air intake on the carburetor to increase the suction.

 

It's a DIY choke. Blocking the air inlet drops the pressure above the main jet and causes it to spew petrol into the venturi. This feeds a fuel-rich mixture into the engine. As long as you don't flood the plug, it should be OK

 

Richard

[onionbargee]

a kelvin in a narrow boat is just gay. full stop.

[NB Alnwick]

Thanks for all your suggestions.

I am intruiged by your comments Alnwick, my engine has original 24v electric start and was a Seaward Engineering rebuild about eight years ago.

In that time the engine has never been possible to start cold on diesel. In fact unless it runs for more than a minute on petrol, it won't keep running when switched to diesel. Once warmed up it never misses a beat all day long.

My hunch is magneto needs remagnetising, but I will try the fuel suggestions and the "hot pugs test" before sending it away,

 

Rob

 

With the original Kelvin 24v set up it should start with diesel only on full compression. We have never started our engine on petrol although we keep the petrol start gear in good condition - just in case . . .

 

There are three possible reasons for failure to start from cold on diesel.

 

Poor compression - due to worn or broken piston rings or due to poor valve seating - this is unlikely if the engine was recently overhauled but check to make sure that the starting valves are not seized or not seating correctly. There should be a decent clearance gap (0.100" at least) between the rocker and the top of the valve stem when closed. I sometimes have problems with starting valves not seating properly - this is easily cured by rotating the valves with a spanner on the top nuts when the engine is running.

 

Injector spread - the spread needs to be somewhere near 30 degrees and quite fine. Too narrow a spread inhibits complete combustion and causes droplets of unburned fuel (and black smoke) in the exhaust.

 

Injector timing - the most likely reason - once warm the engine will run very nicely and quietly with the injection 5 or 6 degrees late but it will never start from cold on this setting. On the other hand if the timing is too early the engine will start but it will knock excessively. When new each engine would have been individually tested and the optimum injection point would have been engraved on the flywheel - ours is just over three inches before TDC. Unfortunately during overhaul and rebuilding, individual engine characteristics may have changed so the engraved line can only serve as a starting point. This is especially true if the flywheel isn't original.

[rjasmith]

I've started our Seaward rebuilt K2 on the 24v starter direct on diesel when it was "cold" but only in the summer!

 

I haven't done it recently and after the engine's enforced sabbatical while doing a bit more fitting out I suspect my starting valves might have become a bit leaky.

 

Richard

[robkg]

Does a workshop manual exist for the K series engines?

I have only been able to find an owners manual which does not provide setting info such as injection timing.

As far as the injectors are concerned, presumably all I can do is remove, dismantle and clean them in order to improve the spray pattern.

 

Rob

 

"hot pugs test"

I haven,t been cooking the dog!

[dcruk]

From my own experience back in February trying to get my K2 going after several years laid up several things come to mind

1. fresh petrol always seem to make it start better.Lots of petrol in the carb,around 150-200ml, it needs to run for as long as possible. prime chambers with 10ml of petrol each

2. hot plugs definately makes a difference

3. it sounds like it is only running on the priming charge so I would suggest putting your hand over half of the carb air intake , works for mine, then once running after 30 seconds remove hand and make sure throttle is well open with injector drains open to clear any air from injector pipes. 4. once it runs on the petrol properly close one injector drain then close one changeover valve ( if they are linked try disconnecting them and operating separately)

5. once it starts running evenly on diesel bring in other cylinder with injector drain then changeover valve.

6. Not running long enough was my biggest problem , the chambers need to feel hot to the touch before trying to get it running on diesel.

7. I fitted a drain tap into the bottom of the carb to drain any fuel left in there. 8. Leave it running qucikly for another minute or 2 before slowing down , gives a chance to get properly warm.

 

I do have an electronic ignition set up on mine , fitted when I got it with a 2cv coil so it needs a 12v supply unlike a magneto. It took a while to get the ignition timing right , same with injection timing.

 

Hth Dave

[NB Alnwick]

Does a workshop manual exist for the K series engines?

I have only been able to find an owners manual which does not provide setting info such as injection timing.

As far as the injectors are concerned, presumably all I can do is remove, dismantle and clean them in order to improve the spray pattern.

 

Rob

 

 

I haven't seen a workshop manual of the type that you might expect to find for a mass produced engine and I suspect that such a publication does not exist.

[rjasmith]

Rob,

 

The only manual I know of is the "service manual" which can be found on Mike Skyner's fabulous website here. I also managed to get an original copy of it in the small handbook style with the red cover a few years ago by setting up an auto search for Kelvin stuff on eBay.

 

It does have a couple of paras on injector timing, but as Graham says, it is not like the conventional workshop manual we've got used to!

 

Another thought, as you have a Seaward Eng rebuilt K2, could you not try contacting Andy or John at Seaward in Glasgow for their advice? I've always found them to be extremely helpful. Alternatively I've found Dick Goble who's a bit closer at hand (Stoke on Trent) to be happy to give advice.

 

Richard

 

Edited to correct completely cocked up link url!!

Edited June 17, 2012 by rjasmith

[dave moore]

Hi Rob

 

Only just picked this up. Dick Goble is the man to talk to, I'll PM you his contact numbers later. We had a similar situation on Resolute. One of the Gardener family suggested that old fashioned real 4 star leaded petrol, which would have been the norm back in the day, would make life easier, and so it proved. As you know, magneto problems led us to convert to glo plug starting. Since then I've found a chap in Dorset, D H Day, who can rebuild magnetos. He advertises in the vintage machinery magazines. One day, when I'm flush, I'll have the magneto rebuilt! It may be worth having a look at the rotor arm/cogwheel, that's where our difficulties started. Call me for more details.

 

Dave