STEAMY AFFAIR

[churchward]

Steam loco 70000 Britannia has just gone belting through here,B.Stortford, on its return trip back to Arlesford Hants from Ely.

Britannia was one of the stars at the "steel, Steam & Stars" Gala at the Llangollen railway a few weeks back. I was one of the signaman on the last weekend and she was in fine form.

Edited June 8, 2012 by churchward

[bizzard]

Britannia was one of the stars at the "steel, Steam & Stars" Gala at the Llangollen railway a few weeks back. I was one of the signaman on the last weekend and she was in fine form.

Yes i saw good photo's of it there on the Railway Herald website.

[Max Sinclair]

Even when no one was bullying him, Mr. Bulleid was a fine engineer. I don't think the Q class, which looked like normal steam engines, was his; it was the startlingly austere wartime Q1 which was.

I am a Bulleid fan,when he was Chief Engineer Irish Railways I wrote to him seeking exhibits for our narrow gauge engine shed where I was restoring a Kerr Stuart Wren loco. A few weeks later a railway lorry arrived with a large wooden packing case. The treasures inside included a huge Tralee and Dingle acetylene headlamp, the West Clare No 7 plate, and various other artefacts.He was a gent.

[larkshall]

Heh you guys, are you sure you don't want a steam engine in your engine rooms, are you sure diesels are for you ?

[blackrose]

Heh you guys, are you sure you don't want a steam engine in your engine rooms, are you sure diesels are for you ?

 

Yes quite sure. I help run two steam boats and it's a LOT of work. There are several good reasons steam died out.

 

No end of passengers tell me how wonderful these steam boats are and I can't help thinking "yeah right, try loading the coal bunkers and then tell me how great you think it is..."

 

Steam engines are great to look at but a major pain in the arse to run.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=50792&pid=947137&st=0entry947137

Edited September 30, 2012 by blackrose

[Athy]

I am a Bulleid fan,when he was Chief Engineer Irish Railways I wrote to him seeking exhibits for our narrow gauge engine shed where I was restoring a Kerr Stuart Wren loco. A few weeks later a railway lorry arrived with a large wooden packing case. The treasures inside included a huge Tralee and Dingle acetylene headlamp, the West Clare No 7 plate, and various other artefacts.He was a gent.

Marvellous story! His "Leader" class for the Southern Railway deserved a better fate than being tested and then quietly forgotten.

Where is this Kerr Stuart engine now, and does she sport that big headlight?

Edited September 30, 2012 by Athy

[larkshall]

Yes quite sure. I help run two steam boats and it's a LOT of work. There are several good reasons steam died out.

 

No end of passengers tell me how wonderful these steam boats are and I can't help thinking "yeah right, try loading the coal bunkers and then tell me how great you think it is..."

 

Steam engines are great to look at but a major pain in the arse to run.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=50792&pid=947137&st=0entry947137

 

 

I know this I've had some dealings with a fowler road engine, watter was a bigger problem for that, but lugging coal is no fun.

[the grinch]

Marvellous story! His "Leader" class for the Southern Railway deserved a better fate than being tested and then quietly forgotten.

Where is this Kerr Stuart engine now, and does she sport that big headlight?

 

the main problem that the 1 leader that actually ran was the continual problems with the sleeve valves which had a tendancy to crack, the CC1 turf burner was modified to eliminate this problem

of the 3 loco's that were built only 36001 was ever completed and ran a large number of successful trial runs unfortunately several unsuccessful ones overshadowed its successes.

 

it was always assumed that they all stayed in grey undercoat continually but a photo has now emerged showing at least 1 wearing an all over gloss black livery and it looks stunning even if its only in B/W 2 of the locos (002 & 003) ended their days at Bognor Regis stored there as space wasn't available at Brighton works, sadly they all secumbed to the cutters torch at Eastleigh before I was old enough to see 1 (I lived at the back of the coal yard in Bognor from 1970 to 1975 and could see the whole yard from my bedroom window)

 

Now if someone wanted to build a replica i'd be amongst the first to donate!!

[bizzard]

Leda was much prettier.

[steelaway]

Even when no one was bullying him, Mr. Bulleid was a fine engineer. I don't think the Q class, which looked like normal steam engines, was his; it was the startlingly austere wartime Q1 which was.

 

 

 

Q1 Probably the ugliest steam engine ever built - even if it was cheap and efficient.

 

 

 

 

One of the most beautiful. Not a Britannia Class but a close B.R. copy and the last of them

 

 

 

 

Alex

[RLWP]

The ugliest loco ever built? Not even close:

 

 

Although the 9F is indeed pretty ugly too

 

Richard

[Athy]

I'm sure the Q1 will look nice when they finish it. As for the 9F, imposing yes, beautiful, not so sure. Most of the engines which I would consider "beautiful" have a four-wheel leading bogie which gives them a striding elegance (think LSWR 4-4-2 tank, of which one is prserved on the Bloob, or the "Streak" A4s of the LNER). The exception would be the Mallet locos of the CF du Vivarais. I could watch them all day, and a couple of times in the last decade when the line had special weekends, I DID watch them all day.

Alas they have not run for some four years now (I was on the last regular passenger service before the unexpected closure, September 30th 2008) but may d.v. return for 2013.

[bizzard]

Q1 Probably the ugliest steam engine ever built - even if it was cheap and efficient.

 

 

 

 

One of the most beautiful. Not a Britannia Class but a close B.R. copy and the last of them

 

 

 

 

Alex

The Q1 suffered from the usual Bullied problem. Its adhesive weight was too light for its power output on starting and therefore it could slip badly. Its axle weight of course was kept down so it could traverse branch and secondary lines.

[steelaway]

I'm sure the Q1 will look nice when they finish it. As for the 9F, imposing yes, beautiful, not so sure. Most of the engines which I would consider "beautiful" have a four-wheel leading bogie which gives them a striding elegance (think LSWR 4-4-2 tank, of which one is prserved on the Bloob, or the "Streak" A4s of the LNER). The exception would be the Mallet locos of the CF du Vivarais. I could watch them all day, and a couple of times in the last decade when the line had special weekends, I DID watch them all day.

Alas they have not run for some four years now (I was on the last regular passenger service before the unexpected closure, September 30th 2008) but may d.v. return for 2013.

 

 

 

So as a kid, I jumped of a train from Manchester at Crewe station, I heard a large steam engine on another platform and ran to see what it was.

I turned a corner and saw City Of St Albans IN RED - It took my breath away, I had never seen a red loco. I have never forgotten it.

Along with - an A4 at full chat on the through line at Doncaster Station, pulling the White Rose express - unforgettable!

 

 

 

 

Alex

[bizzard]

So as a kid, I jumped of a train from Manchester at Crewe station, I heard a large steam engine on another platform and ran to see what it was.

I turned a corner and saw City Of St Albans IN RED - It took my breath away, I had never seen a red loco. I have never forgotten it.

Along with - an A4 at full chat on the through line at Doncaster Station, pulling the White Rose express - unforgettable!

 

 

 

 

Alex

The Coronations or Duchesses were very elegant and probably the most powerful express loco's in the country.

I like you have a memories of them as a kid, one of which was ''City of Chester'' in green which pulled our 24 coach train from Liverpool to London Euston in the late 50's at high speed stopping only at Crewe. They were always very heavy trains to and from London and Liverpool because of troops going on and off leave.

[Athy]

I turned a corner and saw City Of St Albans IN RED - It took my breath away, I had never seen a red loco. I have never forgotten it.

Along with - an A4 at full chat on the through line at Doncaster Station, pulling the White Rose express - unforgettable!

 

Alex

 

 

The ex-LMS pacifics were repainted in something close to LMS red during their last few years in BR service, about 1960 to 65. The first red loco I saw was the preserved Midland compound 4-4-0 1000 at Sheffield Mid. My dad took me down there to see it, about 1961 I would guess.

As for Streaks at full bore through Donny - ah yes, I remember them well, usually viewed from the road bridge as the station staff were not keen to allow train spotters on to the platforms. I think their livery changed from green to LNER-ish blue at about the same time.

About that time, we used to pass a large factory at a place called Staveley near Chesterfield and I saw ancient ex-Midland 0-6-0 tanks, painted unlined soot, which in their way I found as intriguing as the big express locos. I have liked odd, obscure and weird engines (and planes, cars, boats etc.) ever since.

[bizzard]

Way back there was lots of controversy over which company built the most powerful express loco. The main contenders being;- the GW kings, southern Merchant Navies, Lord Nelsons and the LM's Lizzies and Duchesses. The Nelsons never attained there expected efficiency and power output and Bullied wrote them off as not worth developing further and concentrated on the 4-4-0 Schools instead which he liked. The original unrebuilt southern Merchant Navy class were not quite up to the job having unreliable valve gear in the highest sustained power output stakes either.

So the tussel was really between The GW 4-6-0 King class, Lizzies and Duchesses, although capable of a similar power output as the Lizzies and LM Duchess the GW Kings could only deliver max power in shortish bursts and could not maintain their maximum high power over longish periods without running short of steam as being a 4-6-0 as apposed to the 4-6-2 wheel arrangement of Duchesses and Lizzies, they had smaller boilers and fireboxes. So the Duchess were really the only loco's that could maintain maximum power over long periods, London to Glasgow for example 400 miles. They say the Duchesses absolute maximum power was never reached as one fireman could not cope with the demand for the amount of coal required to be shoveled.

[Athy]

You're not an LNER fan then, Bizz? You have not mentioned their various pacifics.

I would try to find my Ian Allan Locospotters' Combined Volume and look up these engines' tractive efforts, but my anorak is in the wash.

[lydfordcastle]

You're not an LNER fan then, Bizz? You have not mentioned their various pacifics.

I would try to find my Ian Allan Locospotters' Combined Volume and look up these engines' tractive efforts, but my anorak is in the wash.

 

It won't help you much I'm afraid as the Ian Allen books only listed tractive efforts which is a purely theoretical measure of power and does not take into account boiler efficiency etc. It was often the case that a steam locomotive would boast a very high tractive effort but was totally incapable of developing a good draw bar horse power due to shortfalls in boiler design and other inefficiences such as poorly designed steam pipework, valve gear and ports. Horse power developed can only be measured on test and in recent performances by pre-nationalisation built types hauling trains up Shap etc, Stanier's LMS designs have won hands down.

Mind you, Tornado didn't do too badly.

[bizzard]

You're not an LNER fan then, Bizz? You have not mentioned their various pacifics.

I would try to find my Ian Allan Locospotters' Combined Volume and look up these engines' tractive efforts, but my anorak is in the wash.

The LNER pacifics were great but apart from the Peppercorn pacifics the A1's A3's and A4's were not quite up in the really high tractive effort bracket of 40000 lbs. They could haul medium weight trains very fast over long distances of course though.

[steelaway]

The ex-LMS pacifics were repainted in something close to LMS red during their last few years in BR service, about 1960 to 65. The first red loco I saw was the preserved Midland compound 4-4-0 1000 at Sheffield Mid. My dad took me down there to see it, about 1961 I would guess.

As for Streaks at full bore through Donny - ah yes, I remember them well, usually viewed from the road bridge as the station staff were not keen to allow train spotters on to the platforms. I think their livery changed from green to LNER-ish blue at about the same time.

About that time, we used to pass a large factory at a place called Staveley near Chesterfield and I saw ancient ex-Midland 0-6-0 tanks, painted unlined soot, which in their way I found as intriguing as the big express locos. I have liked odd, obscure and weird engines (and planes, cars, boats etc.) ever since.

 

Talking about Staveley see --- Deltic's

Not steam but awesome loco's never the less

 

Alex

[bizzard]

As lydford castle says, tractive effort is only really a rough guide to an engines power. For long sustained periods of hauling heavy trains at high speed it was down to boiler-power, size and firebox grate area capacity, the Duchesses i think beat everyone easily on that score.

[bizzard]

Talking about Staveley see --- Deltic's

Not steam but awesome loco's never the less

 

Alex

Way back i remember seeing the prototype Deltic on test service trains at Kings X. It of course ended up in the science museum South Kensington alongside the GW Caerfilly Castle . The only steam loco's that could equal or beat the 3,300hp of the Deltics was the Stanier's Duchess pacific class, which they were recorded of doing so on a couple of occasions climbing Shap.

[FadeToScarlet]

Way back there was lots of controversy over which company built the most powerful express loco. The main contenders being;- the GW kings, southern Merchant Navies, Lord Nelsons and the LM's Lizzies and Duchesses. The Nelsons never attained there expected efficiency and power output and Bullied wrote them off as not worth developing further and concentrated on the 4-4-0 Schools instead which he liked. The original unrebuilt southern Merchant Navy class were not quite up to the job having unreliable valve gear in the highest sustained power output stakes either.

So the tussel was really between The GW 4-6-0 King class, Lizzies and Duchesses, although capable of a similar power output as the Lizzies and LM Duchess the GW Kings could only deliver max power in shortish bursts and could not maintain their maximum high power over longish periods without running short of steam as being a 4-6-0 as apposed to the 4-6-2 wheel arrangement of Duchesses and Lizzies, they had smaller boilers and fireboxes. So the Duchess were really the only loco's that could maintain maximum power over long periods, London to Glasgow for example 400 miles. They say the Duchesses absolute maximum power was never reached as one fireman could not cope with the demand for the amount of coal required to be shoveled.

 

Well, Brunel provided a nice billiard table for the GWR, so I suppose there was no need for vast amounts of power, with no equivalent of Shap or Beattock. Had there been a need for it, I'm sure it would have been developed.

 

Wiki says that Hawksworth was designing a Pacific just before nationalisation, that would've been interesting to see!

[Athy]

I believe that the GWR had already tried out a pacific loco but had decided not to put it into production - The Great Bear, perhaps?