Pre-purchase survey

[Danica]

My terms and conditions (along with those of virtually every other surveyor in the business) state that the survey (for which I retain the copyright) is solely for the use of the person commissioning it (and paying the bill), and specifically exclude any liability to anybody else. As these have been approved by my PI insurance company (indeed they were lifted verbatim from their suggested terms and conditions), I'm pretty confident that they would stand up in court if necessary.

 

This is why a survey done for somebody else (like a broker or a previous owner) has very little value - whilst it can give you a general idea of the condition of the boat at the time of the survey, it would be nigh on impossible to prove that the surveyor was liable to anyone other than the person commissioning the survey should they have been negligent.

 

Sorry, I wasn't going down the route of court or liability or negligence, it just seems odd to me that if in a survey X,Y and Z are noted, then those items only become 'valid' to anyone other than the bill payer if that third party pays for a copy of the survey themselves. Surely a survey is parculiar to the boat being surveyed, not its owner ?

 

In essence, you are saying that a survey done for somebody else 'has very little value' because of the terms and conditions of your PI insurance company.

[Paul C]

Sorry, I wasn't going down the route of court or liability or negligence, it just seems odd to me that if in a survey X,Y and Z are noted, then those items only become 'valid' to anyone other than the bill payer if that third party pays for a copy of the survey themselves. Surely a survey is parculiar to the boat being surveyed, not its owner ?

 

In essence, you are saying that a survey done for somebody else 'has very little value' because of the terms and conditions of your PI insurance company.

 

As I understand it, its like this:

 

Using your analogy, if a previous survey has noted that X, Y, and Z require fixing on a boat, the person who found this out (or paid for someone eg a surveyor to) has a strong bargaining position BOTH in respects of saying "this work will cost £4000, please knock £4000 off the purchase price" AND in the case that, say a further item of work revealed itself in the first weeks of ownership which cost say £3000, and the surveyer could be reasonably expected to have found it but didn't, then he or his insurance could possibly 'cover you' and provide a compensation for this.

 

If a third party 'bought' a previously done survey on the boat, then they'd be able to use it for the £4000 bargaining point, but not be able to claim anything off the surveyer for the £3000 fault which shows up later.

[Teadaemon]

Sorry, I wasn't going down the route of court or liability or negligence, it just seems odd to me that if in a survey X,Y and Z are noted, then those items only become 'valid' to anyone other than the bill payer if that third party pays for a copy of the survey themselves. Surely a survey is parculiar to the boat being surveyed, not its owner ?

 

In essence, you are saying that a survey done for somebody else 'has very little value' because of the terms and conditions of your PI insurance company.

 

To answer your question directly, the survey is mine and will always remain so. The person paying the bill gets one copy of the survey report (well actually two, as they get both a pdf and a hard copy). Their copy of the report is particular to them (which is why most surveys start with something like "this survey was performed for Mr. John Smith of 22 Acacia Avenue"), not the boat.

 

Whenever surveyors and marine surveying come up, the question of liability and legal stuff always seems to crop up. That's because marine surveyors are one of the professions that's most likely to be sued by somebody. It hasn't happened yet, but on average I can expect to be sued at least once every five years that I'm in business. To us it's not a rare and abstract concept, it happens and dealing with it (even if it's a completely frivolous claim with no chance of success) takes a lot of time, effort and money.

[smudge837]

Hi all.

 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and sharing your experiences. I would just like to say that I am not saying any dealer/broker is trying to rip me off with a dodgy survey. (before I get strung up)

 

My main concern was, the dealer implying I did not need my own survey, as the survey I was shown is a hull survey only. Th boat in question seems well(over) engineered and has a built in large genny, that neither I or the broker could find. this is a gas free boat so electric is quite important, for heating and water and the like. So I am a little wary as to why you would take time to slip the boat, remedy arisings from hull survey but not have an internal/ full survey.

 

This is a very large purchase for me, and I don't think I will be in a position to do it again if this one bites me. I know the buyer beware bit, just at the moment seems more like a used car dealers than boat broker. If that makes sense.

 

cheers all

 

Smudge

[Athy]

Th boat in question seems well(over) engineered and has a built in large genny, that neither I or the broker could find.

???? It must be very well camouflaged.

[Ray T]

Look at the money you are thinking of spending. Get your own survey done, worth it for the piece of mind. I got mine done by Eddie Freeman, very pleaant, very helpful, he picked up every little flaw and explained everything as he went along, wasnt even bothered by my constant questions.

Also helps in the negotiating over the price.

 

I can second this comment.

[Richard10002]

Hi all.

 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and sharing your experiences. I would just like to say that I am not saying any dealer/broker is trying to rip me off with a dodgy survey. (before I get strung up)

 

My main concern was, the dealer implying I did not need my own survey, as the survey I was shown is a hull survey only. Th boat in question seems well(over) engineered and has a built in large genny, that neither I or the broker could find. this is a gas free boat so electric is quite important, for heating and water and the like. So I am a little wary as to why you would take time to slip the boat, remedy arisings from hull survey but not have an internal/ full survey.

 

This is a very large purchase for me, and I don't think I will be in a position to do it again if this one bites me. I know the buyer beware bit, just at the moment seems more like a used car dealers than boat broker. If that makes sense.

 

cheers all

 

Smudge

 

Everything you say in this post suggests that you should be making any offer subject to a full condition survey. It will probably cost about £10 per foot, plus the cost of lifting, and will allay all of your doubts and fears. If you buy based only on the existing survey and the brokers "word", you will never forgive yourself if something goes wrong afterwards. You can always turn your money into a boat, but it's very difficult to turn a boat into money.

 

If the broker doesn't know where the built in genny is, he doesn't know anything about the boat that's worth knowing - used car dealer sounds about right.

[Cosmic]

(This is a big firm, not fly by night.)

 

The two are not mutually exclusive - some large brokers are extremely disreputable.

1) Has the Sale of Goods Act been tested in this respect? i.e. a broker, not a seller, being sued successfully for a misrepresentation like this? I would have thought the transaction would be covered by Agency Law, where the brokers statements can be taken as being made by the seller, and it is the seller who is liable for any misrepresentation. Not sure whether the costs of such an action would be worth it, nor how successful it would be likely to be. I'm asking the question, rather than doubting what you say - I don't know the answer.

I tested it. I had to involve Staffordshire Trading Standards to get my deposit back. The broker had a typical disclaimer saying that all the details are given in good faith but they don't form part of any contract, but that is not true. The Sale of Goods Act says that goods must be as described, and there is no wording that can be put in an advert that changes that.

I wouldn't have a survey because I expected to be conned. I'd have one because I was in ignorance of the results.

That's how I would think too, but I found that the law doesn't work that way. My survey found that the broker had materially misrepresented the boat but, although I got my deposit back, I couldn't claim for the cost of the survey or getting the boat out of the water. The reason I was given was that, even though there was a clear breach of contract, part of the purpose of the survey was to prove that the broker had been dishonest.

 

I argued that, had the broker been honest, I would never have offered to buy the boat and so never paid for the survey, but I was advised that I would lose that argument in court. I still don't see why.

 

Possibly, but I think the broker is just an 'arranger', not the vendor's agent. As such, if there has been any misrepresentation then I think your main recourse is against the vendor, not the broker.

If you pay money to the broker, then your contract is with the broker. Their advert will claim otherwise, but it's not true.

 

To the OP, I would definitely get your own survey. The broker I had dealings with reminded me very much of a dodgy used car dealer. I've also heard bad reports of him from elsewhere. Maybe it's the same one?

[sueb]

Hi all.

 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and sharing your experiences. I would just like to say that I am not saying any dealer/broker is trying to rip me off with a dodgy survey. (before I get strung up)

 

My main concern was, the dealer implying I did not need my own survey, as the survey I was shown is a hull survey only. Th boat in question seems well(over) engineered and has a built in large genny, that neither I or the broker could find. this is a gas free boat so electric is quite important, for heating and water and the like. So I am a little wary as to why you would take time to slip the boat, remedy arisings from hull survey but not have an internal/ full survey.

 

This is a very large purchase for me, and I don't think I will be in a position to do it again if this one bites me. I know the buyer beware bit, just at the moment seems more like a used car dealers than boat broker. If that makes sense.

 

cheers all

 

Smudge

As this is a gas free boat you need to think seriously about how you are going to use it. Fine if you are moored in a marina or by an electric point but dodgy if you intend to cruise.

[Naughty Cal]

As this is a gas free boat you need to think seriously about how you are going to use it. Fine if you are moored in a marina or by an electric point but dodgy if you intend to cruise.

 

Not always. A lot of US boats are gas free and they seem to manage just fine. A decent genny seems to be the answer.

[Tuscan]

I designed my fit out to be deliberately gas free with a silenced gennie in the front looker, very happy with the concept.

[Athy]

If you can find it, yes.

[RLWP]

If you can find it, yes.

 

I'll help, what does it look like?

 

Richard

[Grace and Favour]

I'll help, what does it look like?

 

Richard

 

Shh! Stop talking - - I'm listening out for it