Ebay vintage engine sales

[john.k]

The 4LW in the crane was the quitest ,easiest starting diesel Ive ever had ...........an  alternative motor was a 3/71 GM ,a noise maker if ever there was one .If the crane had a GM,I could have sold it easily...........there is a sort of US inspired cult of millenial climate change deniers ,noise and emission lovers .

[David Mack]

National 1D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126576492048

 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

National 1D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126576492048

 

Thats lovely !

[David Mack]

3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Thats lovely !

I know. But I can't justify buying it!

 

There's a small trip boat in Skipton that has a similar sized single cylinder Gardner engine, all painted and polished, in full view of the passengers, and this would be ideal for something similar.

[Mike Tee]

somebody on here was looking for something like this some months ago, and I can't remember who!

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

I know. But I can't justify buying it!

 

There's a small trip boat in Skipton that has a similar sized single cylinder Gardner engine, all painted and polished, in full view of the passengers, and this would be ideal for something similar.

It would make quite a nice generator set for an electric Boat. Two big alternators on the side and some nice copper shields with ventilation holes. 

 

Electric and hot water. 

[David Mack]

But as I understand things from a couple of other current threads, you could only install this in a pre 1998 boat.☹️

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

But as I understand things from a couple of other current threads, you could only install this in a pre 1998 boat.☹️

Does that also apply if it is not connected to the propeller? 

 

Can one have vintage generating sets or are they also banned. 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Does that also apply if it is not connected to the propeller? 

 

Can one have vintage generating sets or are they also banned. 

 

I don't think they are banned as such, it is just that they are not tested to prove they meet the required solution limits, and to get the tests done are probably prohibitively expensive for the number that would be sold. No certification so no proof it meets the regulations.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

But as I understand things from a couple of other current threads, you could only install this in a pre 1998 boat.☹️

 

Correction...

 

 you could only install this in a pre 1998 boat and then sell it! 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Does that also apply if it is not connected to the propeller? 

 

Can one have vintage generating sets or are they also banned. 

As in a series hybrid?

[Stroudwater1]

15 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think they are banned as such, it is just that they are not tested to prove they meet the required solution limits, and to get the tests done are probably prohibitively expensive for the number that would be sold. No certification so no proof it meets the regulations.

I must have missed this, owning a pre 1998 boat thankfully. I’m unclear though why can’t they be fitted retrospectively to a more recent boat? I’ve seen a few younger boats with set ups including an older engine. 
 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I must have missed this, owning a pre 1998 boat thankfully. I’m unclear though why can’t they be fitted retrospectively to a more recent boat? I’ve seen a few younger boats with set ups including an older engine. 
 

 

I think that a new true replica of a vintage boat is allowed to use a vintage engine as an exemption. I also think post 1998 but pre the rejig of the regulations (don't know the date), boats were allowed to use vintage engines. In fact, I think Roger Preen @ Calcutt got the BMC small diesels classed as vintage because their predecessor petrol units were derived from the pre-war Austin engines. As far as I can gather, the rules on emissions were changed to disallow these exemptions, but many choose to ignore them, either through ignorance or deliberately. I await a learned source clarifying the whole RCD/RCR mess for inland craft.

[Mike Tee]

So in general if a post 1998 boat is bought / sold / owned, what are the penalties and who will apply them?

This is not a frivolous question, but a serious one.

ETA- forgot to say 'with an older vintage style engine'!

Edited July 16, 2024 by Mike Tee

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Mike Tee said:

So in general if a post 1998 boat is bought / sold / owned, what are the penalties and who will apply them?

This is not a frivolous question, but a serious one.

 

There is endless confusion. The only way is for you to read them yourself and arrive at your own interpretation. There is no consensus. Or perhaps employ a solicitor if it is that serious.

 

There are two versions of the regulations which I think are different and Alan recently stated are the same. RCD which applies up to 2017 and RCR (which I think have stricter requirements) which took over after 2017.

 

There is no enforcement that I have seen or heard of, but some here claim otherwise. I don't think anyone has ever cited any actual cases of successful prosecution though. 

 

A further complication is there is some debate about whether RCD and RCR only apply to professional boat builders and brokers selling new boats, not second hand. 

 

A final area for confusion is under RCD, home-build boats without certification could be sold after five years but I think this exemption has been withdrawn under RCR. I haven't read the core legislation, its just something I seen suggested several times in different places. Similarly for the vintage engine exemption. Fine under RCD but not under RCR, some are saying. 

[David Mack]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that a new true replica of a vintage boat is allowed to use a vintage engine as an exemption. I also think post 1998 but pre the rejig of the regulations (don't know the date), boats were allowed to use vintage engines. In fact, I think Roger Preen @ Calcutt got the BMC small diesels classed as vintage because their predecessor petrol units were derived from the pre-war Austin engines. As far as I can gather, the rules on emissions were changed to disallow these exemptions, but many choose to ignore them, either through ignorance or deliberately. I await a learned source clarifying the whole RCD/RCR mess for inland craft.

I can't remember the exact dates but I recall the situation was something like this:

Under the original RCD a new engine fitted to a new boat had to meet the then current noise and emissions standards, but there was nothing to stop the builder fitting a second hand (and non-compliant) engine. Later the EU moved to block that loophole but a specific exemption was negotiated which allowed engines of a pre-1950 design to be fitted to new boats, so 'vintage' engines were permitted, but more recent models which didn't meet standards weren't. That exemption was time limited to (I think) 2007, so since then you haven't (legally) been able to fit an old engine to a new boat.  But again there was nothing to stop a compliant new engine being subsequently replaced by an older non-compliant engine. And likewise nothing to stop a builder supplying a boat without an engine to the customer, who then fitted his own engine, and would benefit from the 5 year rule. The 2017 regs, with the need for subsequent changes to comply with the standards, have effectively ended the fitting of old engines to new boats. There is still a limited exception for replica historic craft, although how far that stretches in relation to a welded steel narrow boat with full length cabin, but with a shape loosely based on the riveted iron or wooden craft of commercial carrying days, remains to be legally tested.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I can't remember the exact dates but I recall the situation was something like this:

Under the original RCD a new engine fitted to a new boat had to meet the then current noise and emissions standards, but there was nothing to stop the builder fitting a second hand (and non-compliant) engine. Later the EU moved to block that loophole but a specific exemption was negotiated which allowed engines of a pre-1950 design to be fitted to new boats, so 'vintage' engines were permitted, but more recent models which didn't meet standards weren't. That exemption was time limited to (I think) 2007, so since then you haven't (legally) been able to fit an old engine to a new boat.  But again there was nothing to stop a compliant new engine being subsequently replaced by an older non-compliant engine. And likewise nothing to stop a builder supplying a boat without an engine to the customer, who then fitted his own engine, and would benefit from the 5 year rule. The 2017 regs, with the need for subsequent changes to comply with the standards, have effectively ended the fitting of old engines to new boats. There is still a limited exception for replica historic craft, although how far that stretches in relation to a welded steel narrow boat with full length cabin, but with a shape loosely based on the riveted iron or wooden craft of commercial carrying days, remains to be legally tested.

 

That is pretty much my understanding, but with dates added. However, that does not address the elephant in the room that always raises controversy, which is what happens at subsequent resale of an in scope (no exemption)  boat that has been subsequently fitted with a non-compliant engine. Some are adamant there will never be a problem, while others, myself included, are rather more cautious.