Boat Builders

[carlt]

He has over the years made a point of the unique look, which I would argue is very distinctly "Marmite". (Except that I like Marmite....).

I thought that was Braidbar??

 

Photo courtesy of "PEAK FOREST CANAL CARRYING COMPANY/RENAISSANCE" blog: Clicky

[vulch]

Hi guys,

Sorry my first post has ruffled a few feathers; not my intention!

It was banged off in a hurry!

I have never posted on a forum before so I am very much a newbie & have no intention of deliberately breaking etiquette.

Please feel free to advise me, I will do my best to comply.

 

I was asking questions that didn't seem to be coming up in this thread & which will be very relevant to Joshua if he pursues his dream. Others (perhaps CarlT?) may have time to answer them on the forum. I just don't, & this is probably the most time I will spend replying to posts from now on!

 

Skipper says "See this is your first posting guess you have been busy collecting your years of experiences before letting loose this deluge of knowledge on the boating world."

In a nutshell, & not as I would have phrased it myself, but...

yes

that's exactly what I have been doing. Sorry if that offends you.

 

I'm not claiming to be the font of all knowledge, only to have a lot of experience in a particular way of life.

My post was intended to offer that up so that others don't make the same expensive mistakes I have. I simply have neither the time or inclination to spend my time at a keyboard entering into this kind of discussion.

So rightly or wrongly, I put a post on this forum that was aimed at assisting someone who I recognise as being in a similar situation as I was many years ago. Probably a mistake, would you say, Skipper?

 

I am privileged to be the owner of a Roger Farrington boat & I would be happy to show anyone who wants to take the time to travel to Northamptonshire why Roger's boats are exceptional, IMHO.

 

I spent about 8 years CC'ing, gathering every scrap of practical advice from my own experience & listening to the experiences of others. The reality of this lifestyle is far removed from many people's dreams & preconceptions. There was so much I learned from the way others had found solutions to the unique problems we were all facing. I took the best of those ideas, added a few ideas of my own, & asked Roger to build me a boat incorporating it all. It all works pretty well & has stood the test of time, but it is my own approach which would not suit everyone. It suits me, it works, I'm happy. Doesn't mean I think I know it all.

 

So I am willing to spend time chatting or passing on hard won experience in person or on the phone, & happy to leave others to decide the value of my opinions. I am sure they will not be what many want to hear & lots people will disagree, which is fine by me. I'm not prepared to spend time on a forum playing "I'm right, your wrong".

 

 

I would rather be boating.

 

I didn't mean to, but I did provoke a discussion "on a website that is designed to provoke discussion" didn't I? :-),

[14skipper]

Hi Joshua,

I have 18 years' experience living on narrowboats - a Hudson & Farrington to be precise. 14 of those years were spent CC'ing until I finally settled on my present residential mooring.

If you would like to chat directly, I can save you a lot of time, money & disillusionment. I have an answer to, (or at least an opinion on), just about every point raised on this thread. My answers may not be the only valid ones, but they have been proved to work in the real world of all- year - round CC'ing, & provide comfortable & practical solutions to problems that you probably don't even realise exist! For example, how to keep your boat cool in summer & warm in winter? If you are using a pump out toilet, have you thought what you will do when the canal or the marina pump out machines are frozen solid? Do you know how long your water capacity will last you or where you will store the bulky garbage you will accumulate between rubbish points? Do you know the favoured break - in methods of boat thieves & how to design in protection? How will you wash, dry & air your laundry? Keep the boat from running with condensation without being icily draughty in winter? Keep the cupboards & wardrobes from getting damp? Store all the rarely used items such as documentation & tools, that would go in the loft or garage in a house? Because living on a boat is YOUR LIFE & you need so much more with you than on even the most extended holiday!

If you want to contact me I would be happy to chat on the phone. I don't know it all bu I have learned an awful lot the hard & expensive way.

Living on board can be done & it can be a great way of life, so go for it!

Good luck.

 

I am sorry but l just don,t understand why you would not want to post the answers to your own questions for all to see. I for one would be interested in some of the answers "never too old or too proud to learn "

 

14Skipper

 

But my allegory was aimed at the only one hateful poster on this thread, neither you nor Carl. Of course other threads contain similar hatred from a tiny minority of posters. I could ignore it I suppose but that was what happened in Germany in the late 30s.

 

You reap what you sow

14Skipper

Edited October 3, 2011 by 14skipper

[David Schweizer]

Hi guys,

Sorry my first post has ruffled a few feathers; not my intention!

It was banged off in a hurry!

I have never posted on a forum before so I am very much a newbie & have no intention of deliberately breaking etiquette.

Please feel free to advise me, I will do my best to comply.

 

I was asking questions that didn't seem to be coming up in this thread & which will be very relevant to Joshua if he pursues his dream. Others (perhaps CarlT?) may have time to answer them on the forum. I just don't, & this is probably the most time I will spend replying to posts from now on!

 

Skipper says "See this is your first posting guess you have been busy collecting your years of experiences before letting loose this deluge of knowledge on the boating world."

In a nutshell, & not as I would have phrased it myself, but...

yes

that's exactly what I have been doing. Sorry if that offends you.

 

I'm not claiming to be the font of all knowledge, only to have a lot of experience in a particular way of life.

My post was intended to offer that up so that others don't make the same expensive mistakes I have. I simply have neither the time or inclination to spend my time at a keyboard entering into this kind of discussion.

So rightly or wrongly, I put a post on this forum that was aimed at assisting someone who I recognise as being in a similar situation as I was many years ago. Probably a mistake, would you say, Skipper?

 

I am privileged to be the owner of a Roger Farrington boat & I would be happy to show anyone who wants to take the time to travel to Northamptonshire why Roger's boats are exceptional, IMHO.

 

I spent about 8 years CC'ing, gathering every scrap of practical advice from my own experience & listening to the experiences of others. The reality of this lifestyle is far removed from many people's dreams & preconceptions. There was so much I learned from the way others had found solutions to the unique problems we were all facing. I took the best of those ideas, added a few ideas of my own, & asked Roger to build me a boat incorporating it all. It all works pretty well & has stood the test of time, but it is my own approach which would not suit everyone. It suits me, it works, I'm happy. Doesn't mean I think I know it all.

 

So I am willing to spend time chatting or passing on hard won experience in person or on the phone, & happy to leave others to decide the value of my opinions. I am sure they will not be what many want to hear & lots people will disagree, which is fine by me. I'm not prepared to spend time on a forum playing "I'm right, your wrong".

 

 

I would rather be boating.

 

I didn't mean to, but I did provoke a discussion "on a website that is designed to provoke discussion" didn't I? :-),

I agree with your choice of Roger Farrington as your Boat Builder, but if you do not like spending much time at your keyboard, why do you write such long posts saying that. It would probably have taken less time to post your advice.

[carlt]

Others (perhaps CarlT?) may have time to answer them on the forum. I just don't, & this is probably the most time I will spend replying to posts from now on!

Actually no, I certainly don't have time to type essays as long as your 2 posts.

 

I am logged on most of the time but open the window, occasionally, and write short, quick posts, and return to the real world.

 

I have a mountain of unanswered PMs to plough through, some day, because I don't have time to post more than a few lines at a time.

 

Now, if you don't mind, you've kept me long enough.

[Joshua]

Hi Joshua,

I have 18 years' experience living on narrowboats .........................proved to work in the real world of all- year - round CC'ing, & provide comfortable & practical solutions to problems that you probably don't even realise exist! For example,

 

......how to keep your boat cool in summer & warm in winter?

......If you are using a pump out toilet, have you thought what you will do when the canal or the marina pump out machines are frozen solid?

......Do you know how long your water capacity will last you or where you will store the bulky garbage you will accumulate between rubbish points?

......Do you know the favoured break - in methods of boat thieves & how to design in protection?

......How will you wash, dry & air your laundry?

......Keep the boat from running with condensation without being icily draughty in winter?

......Keep the cupboards & wardrobes from getting damp?

......Store all the rarely used items such as documentation & tools, that would go in the loft or garage in a house?

.............................................

 

 

Hi Vulch,

 

 

Thanks for your response; I would love to hear the answers, hope you don't mind me editing your post for clarity.

 

 

As you can imagine, most of the issues you raise have been debated on this forum over the years and by researching the archives I have learnt a great deal.

 

However, a fresh view can never be a bad thing and after all, the world evolves.

 

To avoid long posts for both author and reader, perhaps you could take the points one at a time?

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Joshua

[sarahavfc]

31k is a great price for such a shell, even at 2008-9 prices. My comments on price related to an NC sailaway being advertised for 80+k, but perhaps it is only NC that are so expensive. On the other hand, if you are looking for your 1st boat perhaps 3 years is too long to wait (4 years by the time it's complete).

 

The boat you are talking about wasn't being sold by Norton Canes, it was a private sale by the owner, who at the time was a fitter at NC.

 

It was quite a bit more than just a sailaway, the boat had been installed with a Marine Gardner 2LW, there was a back cabin, which had been scumbled and decorated, the boat had been gritblasted and coach painted, the main cabin space had been sprafoamed and all wiring looms were in place, the price also included a Heritage Range and all the lining out materials.

 

So quite how you can publicly comment on the price of a builders boats upon a private boat sale, I'm not sure.

[14skipper]

Hi Vulch,

 

 

Thanks for your response; I would love to hear the answers, hope you don't mind me editing your post for clarity.

 

 

As you can imagine, most of the issues you raise have been debated on this forum over the years and by researching the archives I have learnt a great deal.

 

However, a fresh view can never be a bad thing and after all, the world evolves.

 

To avoid long posts for both author and reader, perhaps you could take the points one at a time?

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Joshua

 

We are waiting with baited breath Vulch

14Skipper

Edited October 3, 2011 by 14skipper

[deletedaccount]

No offence joshua but I can't read all that comic sans. It hurts my eyes.

 

ARghjgsdgdfhjsd

[wrigglefingers]

The boat you are talking about wasn't being sold by Norton Canes, it was a private sale by the owner, who at the time was a fitter at NC.

 

It was quite a bit more than just a sailaway, the boat had been installed with a Marine Gardner 2LW, there was a back cabin, which had been scumbled and decorated, the boat had been gritblasted and coach painted, the main cabin space had been sprafoamed and all wiring looms were in place, the price also included a Heritage Range and all the lining out materials.

 

So quite how you can publicly comment on the price of a builders boats upon a private boat sale, I'm not sure.

 

Ah that's clearer then - and I know the boat in question and it was a couple of spits away from being completed if I remember correctly. Nobody quoted me 80K for a shell when I did the rounds; the most was 62k. Dave wasn't the cheapest bespoke hull builder either. The cost of Cobbett at the same stage of completion as the NC boat would've been very close in price.

 

My point was that it's always worth going to talk to builders, it could be considerably less than you think. I poured mostly of my money into the hull and installation rather than the fitting out, but I am delighted with her. The stuff that isn't quite right will get finished or changed in time.

[nicknorman]

The boat you are talking about wasn't being sold by Norton Canes, it was a private sale by the owner, who at the time was a fitter at NC.

 

It was quite a bit more than just a sailaway, the boat had been installed with a Marine Gardner 2LW, there was a back cabin, which had been scumbled and decorated, the boat had been gritblasted and coach painted, the main cabin space had been sprafoamed and all wiring looms were in place, the price also included a Heritage Range and all the lining out materials.

 

So quite how you can publicly comment on the price of a builders boats upon a private boat sale, I'm not sure.

Well it was advertised on the NC website as if being sold by the company, but I stand corrected if that was not the case. Perhaps the company should be more careful how it advertises if it does not want to give the wrong impression to visitors to their website. Having absolutely no axe to grind it did make me think that NC boats were prohibitively expensive.

 

ETA and I still maintain it was pretty much a sailaway - yes with a vintage engine and back cabin, but the rest of the cabin space not even lined. There is a huge amount of work (and cost) to get that up to a completed boat to modern standards.

Edited October 3, 2011 by nicknorman

[sarahavfc]

Well it was advertised on the NC website as if being sold by the company, but I stand corrected if that was not the case. Perhaps the company should be more careful how it advertises if it does not want to give the wrong impression to visitors to their website. Having absolutely no axe to grind it did make me think that NC boats were prohibitively expensive.

 

I sold it, on behalf of the customer. Companies advertising boats for sale don't usually need to state that they don't own the boat.

[Albion]

Well it was advertised on the NC website as if being sold by the company, but I stand corrected if that was not the case. Perhaps the company should be more careful how it advertises if it does not want to give the wrong impression to visitors to their website. Having absolutely no axe to grind it did make me think that NC boats were prohibitively expensive.

 

Graham of NC will not rip you off and will produce a superb boat. It will cost what it needs to cost for skilled men to produce with top quality materials but will, almost certainly, be competitive with the other top quality builders. A really nice guy to deal with and so careful about quality and the right lines etc. Thoroughly recommended.

Roger

ex NC 1075 Albion

[nicknorman]

I sold it, on behalf of the customer. Companies advertising boats for sale don't usually need to state that they don't own the boat.

They don't need to, however if the company is a boatbuilder rather than a brokerage etc, advertising a part-finished boat, there can be an implication that it is spare output from the builders as a result of a cancelled build etc. Whatever, the outcome was that it gave me perhaps a false impression of the likely cost of a fully finished boat and so we didn't even bother to approach you. Maybe you don't care about losing a few customers since you have a long waiting list, in which case fine, it is your business.

Edited October 3, 2011 by nicknorman

[wrigglefingers]

Graham of NC will not rip you off and will produce a superb boat. It will cost what it needs to cost for skilled men to produce with top quality materials but will, almost certainly, be competitive with the other top quality builders. A really nice guy to deal with and so careful about quality and the right lines etc. Thoroughly recommended.

Roger

ex NC 1075 Albion

 

I am sitting staring at an NC boat as I type this and it's gorgeous. My final three were in fact Harris, Edgson and the Wains. All folk I'd be happy to do business with and all utterly straight-forward in their dealings.

 

I can only tell you how I went about building a new boat and what I found. Cost was not a significant element in the decision as all three were acceptable in terms of what they offered.

[carlt]

My final three were in fact Harris, Edgson and the Wains.

You're just so posh!

[Chris Pink]

No offence joshua but I can't read all that comic sans.

 

Turn it off then, your choice.

[wrigglefingers]

You're just so posh!

 

I know, sigh, can't help it. Me dad spent too long teaching me what a decent weld looks like ...

[sarahavfc]

They don't need to, however if the company is a boatbuilder rather than a brokerage etc, advertising a part-finished boat, there can be an implication that it is spare output from the builders as a result of a cancelled build etc. Whatever, the outcome was that it gave me perhaps a false impression of the likely cost of a fully finished boat and so we didn't even bother to approach you. Maybe you don't care about losing a few customers since you have a long waiting list, in which case fine, it is your business.

 

Fair enough, sorry that I gave you that impression.

[MtB]

Turn it off then, your choice.

 

We can turn OFF hard-on-the-eye fonts in other peeps' posts?! How?

[The Anonymous Bard]

This has got to have been one of the most interesting threads I’ve read in that someone has actually been transparent in what they have paid for their boat (or at least the steelwork), and I have to confess to being mildly surprised.

 

Being a relative newcomer in terms of post count I’m sure that there is more in the archives if only the search facility was up to the job, but a couple of things did crop up in my own mind.

 

Whilst I greatly admire many other boat builders work, including Dave Harris, Norton Canes etc in addition to that of my own choice there has been mention of waiting lists for certain builders of boats.

 

On the one hand I see this as the said builder has a list of clients queuing up for his work and has a three year waiting list which much speak volumes as to the quality and accuracy of his work, and on the other hand I see it as a builder who has possibly found his comfort zone and has decided (nearly said failed, but this would be unfair and assuming) to develop his business.

 

If, say for example, Steve Hudson suddenly decided to make his own workforce redundant and settle back into an almost cottage industry way of living, just how long would his waiting list be given that he is knocking out around ten top end boats a year ?

 

By default over three years by my reckoning and that’s without a backlog.

 

I admire his boats (marmite for me please… hate the stuff in real life) and the fact that he has developed his business and given employment to many others when it must have occurred to him at some point that he could take a much cushier route than the one which he has chosen of building a very reputable business, and I applaud his ambition and his boats... they are to my and many others tastes and I would not be as shallow as to knock a builder who's product wasn't.

 

As for the demographics of certain boat owners in relation to their choice of builder I can only say that I can’t possibly believe that such a parallel exists in terms of stereotyping, as Alan quite rightly pointed out despite his dislike of the S M Hudson bow there is no parallel (IIRC, in words of his own).

 

So… going back to the opening sentence, am I converted?

 

No…

[wrigglefingers]

This has got to have been one of the most interesting threads I’ve read in that someone has actually been transparent in what they have paid for their boat (or at least the steelwork), and I have to confess to being mildly surprised.

 

Being a relative newcomer in terms of post count I’m sure that there is more in the archives if only the search facility was up to the job, but a couple of things did crop up in my own mind.

 

Whilst I greatly admire many other boat builders work, including Dave Harris, Norton Canes etc in addition to that of my own choice there has been mention of waiting lists for certain builders of boats.

 

On the one hand I see this as the said builder has a list of clients queuing up for his work and has a three year waiting list which much speak volumes as to the quality and accuracy of his work, and on the other hand I see it as a builder who has possibly found his comfort zone and has decided (nearly said failed, but this would be unfair and assuming) to develop his business.

 

If, say for example, Steve Hudson suddenly decided to make his own workforce redundant and settle back into an almost cottage industry way of living, just how long would his waiting list be given that he is knocking out around ten top end boats a year ?

 

By default over three years by my reckoning and that’s without a backlog.

 

I admire his boats (marmite for me please… hate the stuff in real life) and the fact that he has developed his business and given employment to many others when it must have occurred to him at some point that he could take a much cushier route than the one which he has chosen of building a very reputable business, and I applaud his ambition and his boats... they are to my and many others tastes and I would not be as shallow as to knock a builder who's product wasn't.

 

As for the demographics of certain boat owners in relation to their choice of builder I can only say that I can’t possibly believe that such a parallel exists in terms of stereotyping, as Alan quite rightly pointed out despite his dislike of the S M Hudson bow there is no parallel (IIRC, in words of his own).

 

So… going back to the opening sentence, am I converted?

 

No…

 

Convinced by what exactly? Your closing sentence has no connection with your opening one - has your post gone through an edit too far, perhaps?

 

I'm not sure why you're surprised by the cost of Cobbett as I thought you'd visited Dave and Ian to discuss a possible build with them so I would've thought you would've had a very close idea. Cobbett came in just under budget on Dave's projections and was considerably less than the price that SMH suggested as a ballpark figure by over 25% for the same spec boat. I knew that the delivery time was likely to be in excess of four years (finished and handed over within three years in fact) but I also knew what I wanted and was happy to commit to the queue. At no time could I persuade Dave to take a deposit and if I had changed my mind I was under no obligation to build. In fact, one of the reasons she was reasonably cheap was because Dave noticed that some Hartlepool steel was available with a caveat that prices would be rising by 9% next month and rang me to find out if I wished to buy it as he was happy to store it until he or anybody else started to build Cobbett. I'm not convinced that that would happen in a big yard - perhaps there'd be discount but I'm not sure you'd get an invoice with the price the builder paid, clipped to the back of the account which matched to the last penny.

 

I suspect that some of our finest builders are single builders probably because they prefer it that way and because they know they are able to control the build of the boat and maintain an exceptionally high quality standard. In my experience, they tend to be quite singular characters too, the encyclopaedic knowledge base extended to waterways and railways of Europe and morris dancing, all of which I love (go me!). Because Dave works by himself and because I wanted to work on the fitout he gave me the very best of his experience and time, I learnt how a boat is built and the reasons behind it. Dave works to a very strict timetable which is a transparent process and so if it was say build day 142, Dave would be fitting the plummer blocks and propshaft and I would be painting doors 3,4, 5 and 6 and putting in the Gulpers. I do know the old adage that the final act in building a boat is that you fall out with your builder and I am happy that that didn't happen; we did have one major problem in the build but Dave's response went far beyond what I might have reasonably expected. I must also confess to ending up in tears when he told me that my tiling skills were not up to standard and they had to be removed, the firepanels replaced and I had to start again after a lesson on how to do it to Harris standards. I am still on excellent terms with Dave, Andy Downing and John Sanderson who all worked on Cobbett and gave me their knowledge without hesitation or demand and for whom I have the highest regard.

 

I now have a boat I love, a number of very good friends and have learnt more about boats and life on the cut than I ever realised I needed to know. That, for me, has value beyond money.

[The Anonymous Bard]

Convinced by what exactly? Your closing sentence has no connection with your opening one - has your post gone through an edit too far, perhaps?

 

I'm not sure why you're surprised by the cost of Cobbett as I thought you'd visited Dave and Ian to discuss a possible build with them so I would've thought you would've had a very close idea. Cobbett came in just under budget on Dave's projections and was considerably less than the price that SMH suggested as a ballpark figure by over 25% for the same spec boat. I knew that the delivery time was likely to be in excess of four years (finished and handed over within three years in fact) but I also knew what I wanted and was happy to commit to the queue. At no time could I persuade Dave to take a deposit and if I had changed my mind I was under no obligation to build. In fact, one of the reasons she was reasonably cheap was because Dave noticed that some Hartlepool steel was available with a caveat that prices would be rising by 9% next month and rang me to find out if I wished to buy it as he was happy to store it until he or anybody else started to build Cobbett. I'm not convinced that that would happen in a big yard - perhaps there'd be discount but I'm not sure you'd get an invoice with the price the builder paid, clipped to the back of the account which matched to the last penny.

 

I suspect that some of our finest builders are single builders probably because they prefer it that way and because they know they are able to control the build of the boat and maintain an exceptionally high quality standard. In my experience, they tend to be quite singular characters too, the encyclopaedic knowledge base extended to waterways and railways of Europe and morris dancing, all of which I love (go me!). Because Dave works by himself and because I wanted to work on the fitout he gave me the very best of his experience and time, I learnt how a boat is built and the reasons behind it. Dave works to a very strict timetable which is a transparent process and so if it was say build day 142, Dave would be fitting the plummer blocks and propshaft and I would be painting doors 3,4, 5 and 6 and putting in the Gulpers. I do know the old adage that the final act in building a boat is that you fall out with your builder and I am happy that that didn't happen; we did have one major problem in the build but Dave's response went far beyond what I might have reasonably expected. I must also confess to ending up in tears when he told me that my tiling skills were not up to standard and they had to be removed, the firepanels replaced and I had to start again after a lesson on how to do it to Harris standards. I am still on excellent terms with Dave, Andy Downing and John Sanderson who all worked on Cobbett and gave me their knowledge without hesitation or demand and for whom I have the highest regard.

 

I now have a boat I love, a number of very good friends and have learnt more about boats and life on the cut than I ever realised I needed to know. That, for me, has value beyond money.

 

 

If you care to read back thorough my post I never used the word “convinced“, I merely expressed my preference based upon my own personal tastes and logic (unless you wish to overturn that) and that of many others, in addition to thoughts which I considered to be a balanced view.

 

Nothing that you have posted has overturned that.

 

For the record…. I have never visited Dave Harris or wish to do so.

 

And… I have not edited my post, where exactly, are you coming from?

 

I have stated my respect for builders other than that of my own choice and cannot see where your further ramblings have a relevance?

[wrigglefingers]

If you care to read back thorough my post I never used the word “convinced“, I merely expressed my preference based upon my own personal tastes and logic (unless you wish to overturn that) and that of many others, in addition to thoughts which I considered to be a balanced view.

 

Nothing that you have posted has overturned that.

 

For the record…. I have never visited Dave Harris or wish to do so.

 

And… I have not edited my post, where exactly, are you coming from?

 

I have stated my respect for builders other than that of my own choice and cannot see where your further ramblings have a relevance?

 

Corrected should have read 'converted'. I was led to believe from some of your comments to me and a pm that you would be visiting Dadford's - I recall pm'ing you with telephone numbers for Ian Kemp during your interest in Gazelle and Dave Harris - if I was mistaken, so be it - my apologies, perhaps I've confused you with another Bard.

 

I'm not entirely sure why you're being so rude and if I offended you with my 'ramblings' I'm sorry; I do believe this to be a 'Discussion Forum' and therefore we are allowed to ramble on about our various obsessions. I am offended by your tone of post and apparent lack of manners although I wish you well and hope you have the same enjoyable experience that I have had. Stangely, I do have respect for your choice of builder and his boats are built to a good standard but they're not to my taste and SMH's sense of humour meant that I wouldn't be able to work with him. So there we are - agree to disagree and be more polite? Excellent! I'm off to bed now - sweet dreams.

Edited October 3, 2011 by wrigglefingers

[The Anonymous Bard]

And a thank you Wriggly... yes I do recall a pm discussion and it was never my intention to appear rude but just factual, although after that conversation I did subsequently discover S M Hudson.

 

For the record (once again) I think Cobbett is a lovely boat and sweet dreams... are you dreaming under the tug deck?

 

Ps Still think it's funny he thought you and your daughter were, let's say... companions!