Boat Builders

[nicknorman]

Yeah this is only a small example of what to expect out on the cut, just wait till you hold up a certain member on this forum on the canal trying to catch a flight back to scotland if his post on the subject are anything to go by !

14Skipper

I would imagine that unless you think he is lying about being a liveaboard for 18 years, that he is probably already aware of the type of people encountered in the real world of canals. He perhaps didn't appreciate the relatively high concentration of nasty people on this forum though.

Edited October 2, 2011 by nicknorman

[14skipper]

I would imagine that unless you think he is lying about being a liveaboard for 18 years, that he is probably already aware of the type of people encountered in the real world of canals. He perhaps didn't appreciate the relatively high concentration of nasty people on this forum though.

 

HOOK LINE AND SINKER BOOM BOOM

 

14Skipper

[carlt]

He perhaps didn't appreciate the relatively high concentration of nasty people on this forum though.

I don't think anything I have said is remotely nasty.

 

I merely highlighted the fact that a first post, advising someone to call him, rather than use the forum, is a negative post and would make me wary.

 

The attempt by Axiom Props, to scam the forum members, springs to mind.

[nicknorman]

I don't think anything I have said is remotely nasty.

 

I merely highlighted the fact that a first post, advising someone to call him, rather than use the forum, is a negative post and would make me wary.

 

The attempt by Axiom Props, to scam the forum members, springs to mind.

Perhaps not nasty but a little unfriendly and unforgiving of a 1st poster. Put it another way, not likely to encourage him to post further. But anyway that comment wasn't directed at you!

[14skipper]

But anyway that comment wasn't directed at you!

 

 

[carlt]

Perhaps not nasty but a little unfriendly and unforgiving of a 1st poster.

If it had been his 10000th post I would have still questioned why he should be steering people away from the forum, though I may have been a bit less suspicious of his motives.

[Joshua]

I think that is not a bad list, to which as has been mentioned you could add Roger Farrington. There are a couple of issues you might consider, one is that if you will not be in the country during the build, you might consider doing as we did which is to pick a builder who does the whole job, as opposed to using a shell-only builder and a separate fitter-outer. We wanted a 1 stop shop as we live in a different country (Scotland, further from Englandshire than France!).

 

Secondly there are some big variations in price. We did look at Norton Canes, but the shells seem incredibly expensive to me and whilst of great quality, are a little nondescript IMHO.

 

.......................................

 

 

Hi Nick,

 

Thanks for the recommendation and tips.

 

I am not at the moment ruling anyone out and certainly not on the basis that a builder has been too successful!

 

It appears my list represents the most experienced and successful builders, now I just have to go and talk to them.

 

If I can’t afford some of them, I can’t afford them. From those that are left, I am old enough to have accumulated the common sense needed to choose the right builder for me.

 

 

As for forum vitriol, water off a ducks back, minority is right, a quick look at forum statistics suggest that over 90% of all posts are made by less than 10% of the members and just 40 people have contributed nearly one third of the total posts ever made!!

 

Mind you, I think those statistics just demonstrate how much rubbish you have to wade through to get to the really good stuff!

 

I find forums generally an indispensable and often very enjoyable source of information, where I can, I try to play my part, but you do have to keep a sense of proportion.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Joshua

[nicknorman]

but you do have to keep a sense of proportion.

Joshua

Very true. Note to self: "must try to remember..."

Edited October 2, 2011 by nicknorman

[wrigglefingers]

Hi Nick,

 

Thanks for the recommendation and tips.

 

I am not at the moment ruling anyone out and certainly not on the basis that a builder has been too successful!

 

It appears my list represents the most experienced and successful builders, now I just have to go and talk to them.

 

If I can’t afford some of them, I can’t afford them. From those that are left, I am old enough to have accumulated the common sense needed to choose the right builder for me.

 

 

As for forum vitriol, water off a ducks back, minority is right, a quick look at forum statistics suggest that over 90% of all posts are made by less than 10% of the members and just 40 people have contributed nearly one third of the total posts ever made!!

 

Mind you, I think those statistics just demonstrate how much rubbish you have to wade through to get to the really good stuff!

 

I find forums generally an indispensable and often very enjoyable source of information, where I can, I try to play my part, but you do have to keep a sense of proportion.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Joshua

 

Hello Joshua,

 

Welcome to the forum - it can be something of a bloodbath at times ...

 

I've been following this thread with interest and now I'm reunited with a working laptop i can tell you of my experiences building a bespoke boat, finishing last year.

 

I visited all the builders you outlined with the exception of Steve Hudson who I'd met before and disliked. All of the boats I saw had something unique about them but my personal preference for design, build quality and personality was Dave Harris. Four years on, I am sitting on Cobbett (62', fully trad)and do not regret that choice one iota.

 

Working with Dave was an education in itself (in an entirely good way) and I now know far more about boats than I ever thought possible. Dave encouraged me to make my own decisions but offered solid advice and experience where he thought there was a better way to achieve the same result - this was nearly always a less expensive way. He builds to the most exacting standards and Cobbett's bow is a thing of deep and abiding joy. I've had a visit from the boat safety examiner's friend this afternoon (having had my BSC yesterday) to look at the design of the diesel tanks and propshaft mounting. When we did have a major problem it was resolved quickly and as painlessly as possible.

 

Whilst I'd acknowledge that not having a website is irritating and it is difficult to find his boats - Cobbett is build no 44 and some of those prior build numbers are restorations - Dave would be the first to point out that computers are not his strong point and what's more all of his business comes through word of mouth.

 

This what Cobbett looks like - apologies for the poor quality - the light was fading this evening and you are most welcome to come and see her if I'm here.

 

 

 

[Joshua]

Hello Joshua,

 

Welcome to the forum - it can be something of a bloodbath at times ...

 

I've been following this thread with interest and now I'm reunited with a working laptop i can tell you of my experiences building a bespoke boat, finishing last year.

 

I visited all the builders you outlined with the exception of Steve Hudson who I'd met before and disliked. All of the boats I saw had something unique about them but my personal preference for design, build quality and personality was Dave Harris. Four years on, I am sitting on Cobbett (62', fully trad)and do not regret that choice one iota.

 

Working with Dave was an education in itself (in an entirely good way) and I now know far more about boats than I ever thought possible. Dave encouraged me to make my own decisions but offered solid advice and experience where he thought there was a better way to achieve the same result - this was nearly always a less expensive way. He builds to the most exacting standards and Cobbett's bow is a thing of deep and abiding joy. I've had a visit from the boat safety examiner's friend this afternoon (having had my BSC yesterday) to look at the design of the diesel tanks and propshaft mounting. When we did have a major problem it was resolved quickly and as painlessly as possible.

 

Whilst I'd acknowledge that not having a website is irritating and it is difficult to find his boats - Cobbett is build no 44 and some of those prior build numbers are restorations - Dave would be the first to point out that computers are not his strong point and what's more all of his business comes through word of mouth.

 

This what Cobbett looks like - apologies for the poor quality - the light was fading this evening and you are most welcome to come and see her if I'm here.

 

 

Hi Wrigglefingers,

 

 

Ta very much.

 

I have had similar and equally enthusiastic advice from forum member andywatson, Andy has a good blog chronicling his current Dave Harris build and has kindly been giving me some excellent ‘off air’ advice, he recommended some good books that I now go to bed with every night and which have considerably bolstered my confidence in advance of my meetings with prospective builders.

 

I am planning a UK fact-finding trip beginning the middle of November and really looking forward to meeting Dave Harris.

 

My partner and I will be in the UK for at least 3 weeks and would love the opportunity to see your boat, particularly as we have committed ourselves to booking a build slot, one way or another, by the end of our trip. As soon as we have finalised the dates I will let you know.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Joshua.

[bargemast]

Just remembered that I also have a few photo's to show the really beautiful "COBBETT", found her by chance earlier on the day I was going to see Dave Harris and Andy Watson, to see the master at work on Andy's boatproject and was (and still am) full of admiration for his work.

 

 

 

Peter.

[sueb]

My bit of advice is - If doing a lot of cruising the most important thing is a quiet engine. Some love the sound of traditional engines but you do have to love the sound.

Sue

[alan_fincher]

We have a fantastic boat which virtually everybody we see on the cut admires. Those that don't are the snobby ones with the Norton Canes or Roger Farrington/Fuller boats. Unfortunately for some reason SM Hudson boats regularly trigger an outburst of vitreol from a tiny minority on this forum, irrational but I presume these people are too miserable to actually go boating much, instead preferring to be stuck in front of the keyboard in a musty darkened room working themselves up into a frenzy of hatred, which they have to vent from time to time - you have already seen this on this thread.

I wouldn't go as far as vitreol. but as you know I will freely say that I am not at all a fan of the so called Hudson "trademark" bows.

 

Hudson hulls are regularly described as "Josher style", but bear little resemblance to any Josher ever built, so it seems fair game to me to say that they are hardly based on any working boat.

 

If that doesn't matter, and you just like the look, (as heaps of owners very clearly do), why not stick to a more honest description, (like "Hudson's trademark bow), and I think it would be less likely to prevent adverse comment. I don't have a problem with people choosing what they like, but why put false descriptions on it ?

 

I'm happy to give you the detail on how much boating I do, by the way, but from most of the accounts people post on the forum, I think it could reasonably be described as "lots".

 

Actually, I'm wondering if I have got an overly unwelcome reputation as a "Hudson hater". The owner of the very new "Hudson Number 3", seemed to prefer to reverse back down maybe a hundred yards of canal whilst waiting for Cosgrove lock on Friday, rather than, (it appeared), have me come anywhere near him with my ice-breaker tug! I don't believe I'm really that scary!

 

A pity. Anyway, both the builders you mention tend to specialise in the very traditional look, which is great if that is what you want, and they are both very good at it. But I suspect they are both considerably more expensive than an SMH equivalently-specced boat? So I guess it depends on your priorities.

I was at Brinklow boats on another matter but got into a very interesting discussion with one of the partners there.

 

It would have been entirely obvious to him that I was not a potential customer for a boat built by them, and have little reason to doubt the accuracy of stuff in our discussion.

 

I was genuinely surprised how little more it might cost to have Brinklow build you something like a pretty accurate Northwich replica, versus a "production line" shell from Hudson. It certainly didn't sound a lot, in percentage terms of what would in either case be a pretty big number.

 

I suspect the penalty you pay in going to one of these builders may be less so financial, but rather more the length of their waiting lists.

Edited October 2, 2011 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

My bit of advice is - If doing a lot of cruising the most important thing is a quiet engine. Some love the sound of traditional engines but you do have to love the sound.

Sue

Many traditional engines are quiet, they just throb like a living thing rather than have a soulless buzz.

[wrigglefingers]

 

....

 

I was at Brinklow boats on another matter but got into a very interesting discussion with one of the partners there.

 

It would have been entirely obvious to him that I was not a potential customer for a boat built by them, and have little reason to doubt the accuracy of stuff in our discussion.

 

I was genuinely surprised how little more it might cost to have Brinklow build you something like a pretty accurate Northwich replica, versus a "production line" shell from Hudson. It certainly didn't sound a lot, in percentage terms of what would in either case be a pretty big number.

 

I suspect the penalty you pay in going to one of these builders may be less so financial, but rather more the length of their waiting lists.

 

In fact Dave was significantly cheaper than SMH as were the Brinklow boys. The waiting list for both was over three years before start of build but in fact I queue-jumped with Dave because the person who should've had the build-spot before me decided to delay the build - his was built after Cobbett and before Dr Watson's. The hull for Cobbett which was individually planked on the bow (see build blog) was built shaped to the templates that Dave took from President when he did the restoration on her and Kildare. She cost me £31k but I bought the steel in 2008 and the hull was fabricated in 2009. I daresay that she'd be more expensive now, but still a bargain to my mind.

[nicknorman]

In fact Dave was significantly cheaper than SMH as were the Brinklow boys. The waiting list for both was over three years before start of build but in fact I queue-jumped with Dave because the person who should've had the build-spot before me decided to delay the build - his was built after Cobbett and before Dr Watson's. The hull for Cobbett which was individually planked on the bow (see build blog) was built shaped to the templates that Dave took from President when he did the restoration on her and Kildare. She cost me £31k but I bought the steel in 2008 and the hull was fabricated in 2009. I daresay that she'd be more expensive now, but still a bargain to my mind.

31k is a great price for such a shell, even at 2008-9 prices. My comments on price related to an NC sailaway being advertised for 80+k, but perhaps it is only NC that are so expensive. On the other hand, if you are looking for your 1st boat perhaps 3 years is too long to wait (4 years by the time it's complete).

[nicknorman]

I wouldn't go as far as vitreol. but as you know I will freely say that I am not at all a fan of the so called Hudson "trademark" bows.

 

Hudson hulls are regularly described as "Josher style", but bear little resemblance to any Josher ever built, so it seems fair game to me to say that they are hardly based on any working boat.

 

If that doesn't matter, and you just like the look, (as heaps of owners very clearly do), why not stick to a more honest description, (like "Hudson's trademark bow), and I think it would be less likely to prevent adverse comment. I don't have a problem with people choosing what they like, but why put false descriptions on it ?

 

I don't think I have ever heard an owner describe their hull as Josher style. It may be in the advertising blurb but surely you don't believe everything you see in an advert? So really your point (that you seem to make at every opportunity) is only about the words. I think we now have got the message!

 

Actually, I'm wondering if I have got an overly unwelcome reputation as a "Hudson hater".

 

That would seem likely considering how much you go on about them! But my allegory was aimed at the only one hateful poster on this thread, neither you nor Carl. Of course other threads contain similar hatred from a tiny minority of posters. I could ignore it I suppose but that was what happened in Germany in the late 30s.

[wrigglefingers]

I don't think I have ever heard an owner describe their hull as Josher style. It may be in the advertising blurb but surely you don't believe everything you see in an advert? So really your point (that you seem to make at every opportunity) is only about the words. I think we now have got the message!

 

.....

 

 

Hmmm ... Steve Hudson himself described his boat hull shape as 'genuine Josher' at Crick when I first met him, but then he thought Ellen (my daughter then aged 16) and I were lesbians so I'm not a great fan of his powers of discernment!

[alan_fincher]

I could ignore it I suppose but that was what happened in Germany in the late 30s.

Ah!

 

I had not spotted you were about to invoke Godwin's law!

 

Well sneaked in, that man!

[David Schweizer]

Snip> Actually, I'm wondering if I have got an overly unwelcome reputation as a "Hudson hater". The owner of the very new "Hudson Number 3", seemed to prefer to reverse back down maybe a hundred yards of canal whilst waiting for Cosgrove lock on Friday, rather than, (it appeared), have me come anywhere near him with my ice-breaker tug! I don't believe I'm really that scary! <Snip

But I have it on very good eye witness authority that you were powering down the middle of the canal at the time, and that the said Hudson was worried about protecting his new shiney paintwork!

Edited October 3, 2011 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

But I have it on very good eye witness authority that you were powering down the middle of the canal at the time, and that the said Hudson was worried about protecting his new shiney paintwork!

Who is your witness, because I have one who I think might be prepared to testify, (well at least for enough beers ?), that said Hudson owner did his reversing down the cut before I had even left the lock!

 

To be fair to said Hudson owner, much later on he locked up through Stoke Bruerne in total darkness, and can, I assume, only have carried on through the tunnel, because he would not have been able to find a mooring between locks and tunnel.(Probably has a huge chromed fire engine spotlight on the front though! ).

 

We felt rather smug putting a 40 foot boat into a near exact 40 foot space, when loads of boaters from about Cosgrove onwards were telling me there was absolutely no chance of mooring at the top, (even the "long pound" in the flight was double berthed throughout its entire length).

[David Schweizer]

Hmmm ... Steve Hudson himself described his boat hull shape as 'genuine Josher' at Crick when I first met him, but then he thought Ellen (my daughter then aged 16) and I were lesbians so I'm not a great fan of his powers of discernment!

A bit like Phil Trotter who at the Worcester IWA rally, insisted that his Northwich Trader was built from a genuine set of original drawings, the only problem is that he was unable to name any boats actualy built by Yarwoods that complied with that drawing. Instead they appear to be a composite of various boats built by Yarwoods with some unique elements of their own. Don't get me wrong, they are still nice looking boats, but to call them Northwich boats is a stretch of the imagination, at least the handrails are a fair copy!

 

It is very interesting that several years earlier, I had visited Davis's yard at Saul and asked if they would be willing to build a Yarwoods style boat. I was told by a very arrogant Mr Trotter that if I wanated them to build me a boat it would be them who decided what it looked like.

 

Who is your witness, because I have one who I think might be prepared to testify, (well at least for enough beers ?), that said Hudson owner did his reversing down the cut before I had even left the lock!

 

To be fair to said Hudson owner, much later on he locked up through Stoke Bruerne in total darkness, and can, I assume, only have carried on through the tunnel, because he would not have been able to find a mooring between locks and tunnel.(Probably has a huge chromed fire engine spotlight on the front though! ).

 

We felt rather smug putting a 40 foot boat into a near exact 40 foot space, when loads of boaters from about Cosgrove onwards were telling me there was absolutely no chance of mooring at the top, (even the "long pound" in the flight was double berthed throughout its entire length).

I already have a witness testification - without any beers! But it is for me to know and for you to guess.

[alan_fincher]

Mr Hudson's very latest advertising is still for.....

 

"Josher Styled Tugs and Narrowboats".

 

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to point out that there is very little "Josher-esque" about them.

 

I can't see why an owner of one should be upset by this.

 

If I own a Vauxhall Nova but choose to think it looks like a Ferrari, that is my prerogative, but I really should be upset if I face a barrage of people saying to me "well actually, no it doesn't !".

 

As I have acknowledged previously, I believe his earlier output, before he came up with that very overly narrowed and squashed look, is a very much more desirable looking boat. He has over the years made a point of the unique look, which I would argue is very distinctly "Marmite". (Except that I like Marmite....).

[deletedaccount]

Hmmm ... Steve Hudson himself described his boat hull shape as 'genuine Josher' at Crick when I first met him, but then he thought Ellen (my daughter then aged 16) and I were lesbians so I'm not a great fan of his powers of discernment!

 

[wrigglefingers]

 

Ellen still thinks it's funny as indeed so do I. He finished his chance of a commission though by asking if my "sleeping partner" would like to visit the yard. I didn't think Astro-the-Cat would make it to the Midlands so declined as gracefully as I could given than Ellen was doubled up in paroxysms of laughter.