Nice (old)photo

[richardf]

I recently bought an old glass negative which shows two boats waiting to ascend Bowbridge Locks on the Stroudwater near Stroud, Glos.

 

The negative was wrapped in paper and in copperplate writing was written 'Longboat Trial at Bowbridge Locks'. I have scanned it and included it below. I think it is a stunning photo, but can't make up my mind about the boats - are they narrow or not? I went into the visitor centre that is newly opened in Stroud and looked through their old books; this image does appear, along with another showing Trial.

 

I contacted Pete Harrison who confirmed that the carrier was known to him, but that he had no knowledge of Trial. He did mention that there were a number of narrowboats 'registered in Stroud' (I love that!). I had assumed that there were just trows.

 

If anyone can shed any light on it, I would be interested, if not, I hope you like the picture.

 

[Timleech]

I reckon the boat nearer to the camera is probably around 11' beam.

 

Tim

[ditchcrawler]

I have a book that says the Narrowboats that worked up to Birmingham from the G&S were known as long boats.

[Derek R.]

I wonder if the other boat was called Tribulation?

 

Seems to be a padlock on TRIAL, so maybe the lads were encouraged to hop aboard for the sake of scale in the photo.

Certainly looks wider than 7', though the one ahead seems narrow.

 

Nice photo. From that bridge today: Butterrow Hill.

[RLWP]

I wonder if the other boat was called Tribulation?

 

<snip>

 

Coat for Derek R please

 

Richard

[magpie patrick]

First, that's not Bowbridge on the Stroudwater unless it's back to front, the towpath is the wrong side (there are almost certainly other detail differences which my mind can't quite compute). If it is back to front, photoshop was alive and well nearly a century ago to get the name right.

 

The boat nearer the camera is wide beam, even photoshop couldn't widen a nb quite so convincingly, I'll bet it's only 68 feet long as well, it's a nb style widebeam built for the purpose

 

But for whom? The Grand Junction had wide beams, and made much use of them south of Rickmansworth, the Manchester Bolton and Bury had "Bastard Boats", wide beams in the narrow beam style. Was this built for the Stroudwater, Thames and Severn, or procured from elsewhere.

 

Given that narrow boats couldn't pair up on the Thames and Severn because the locks were only twelve feet wide, using wider vessels is logical, the question is why in the narrow boat style?

 

Oh, and Derek, the coat faerie wishes to make an appointment with you...

[Chris Pink]

On the side;

 

James Smart (? And co ?)

 

(? Chalfont ?) is what it looks like to me

 

There is no Chalfont on a canal but there is a Chalford near Stroud, home to one James Smart, owner and co-owner with James Herbert of the wherry packet on the Stroudwater in the 1890s

 

http://www.gsia.org.uk/canals/projects/s10_lpb_boats.pdf

 

There's mention of Trial here;

http://www.gsia.org.uk/canals/projects/s08_traffic_hcj.pdf

 

Under different ownership

 

James Smart was a coal merchant at Chalford and owned a number of barges and canal boats in the late 19th century. There's also a brief mention in the Gloucester boat register but apparently Stroud is considered 'up-country'.

 

Registered in Stroud can be clearly seen on the boat in the picture

 

Might be worth speaking to Paul Barnett who did a lot of this research, if nothing else he will certainly be interested in your picture.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Chris Pink

[Laurence Hogg]

The boat may well be a Honeystreet (K&A) boat built to around 11ft and designed to work right across southern England from the Severn to London and further north. Many of the wide boats registered on the grand jubnction / GUC are around this beam and the only reason for this is full access to the western side of the country. No wide boats of this type survive today as far as I know so the pictures are the only visual evidence that they existed.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[pete harrison]

 

James Smart was a coal merchant at Chalford and owned a number of barges and canal boats in the late 19th century. There's also a brief mention in the Gloucester boat register but apparently Stroud is considered 'up-country'.

 

Registered in Stroud can be clearly seen on the boat in the picture

 

 

I have a pretty good transcript of the Gloucester Health Register and James Smart is mentioned twice, once for the registration of a boat (ANN MARIA - Gloucester 145, 07 November 1896 - re-registration, formally Gloucester 145 ANN MARIA for Charles Perks, Standish, Gloucester) and then listing a sale on another registration (Gloucester 286 - EVA for Thomas Clark, Eastington, Gloucestershire - sold up country to James Smart, Chalford).

 

"Sold up Country" is a term that is used frequently within the Gloucester Health Register and simply means that the boat has been disposed of and its registration on this register is no longer valid. In an ideal world one registering authority would have communicated a re-registering with another authority and a formal cancellation / cross reference should appear in both registers. Unfortunately this happened infrequently, and even less frequently within the Gloucester Health Register (or at least in my transcript). It also appears that the Stroud Health Register is lost, my references to this register coming from Inspections and 'quotes' made within other health registers - unreliable to say the least !

[Derek R.]

I live in my coat, and faeries get the Flit Gun.

 

Despite TRIAL as being in the list of Narrow craft, it certainly looks wide.

 

Thanks for those links Chris, the first of the two I have not yet read fully, but what a wonderful trove of personal histories about boats and the working of. A gem.

 

PS About the towpath: I wondered that, but thought perhaps the bridge was a turnover of a primitive kind. There appears to be a path of sorts on the 'wrong' side today, and the site of previously demolished where the towpath appears in the print. Yet further back the path appears on the 'correct' side. Hard to say with so much having changed over time. Could be a different lock. Needs local knowledge.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Derek R.

[Chris Pink]

The boat may well be a Honeystreet (K&A) boat built to around 11ft and designed to work right across southern England from the Severn to London and further north. Many of the wide boats registered on the grand jubnction / GUC are around this beam and the only reason for this is full access to the western side of the country. No wide boats of this type survive today as far as I know so the pictures are the only visual evidence that they existed.

 

There are references to honey street barges, there's the remains of the lovely Harriet at Purton, Harriet has always had my heart, I believe a replica has been made.

 

Anyway honey street barges, while they would have certainly been on the Stroudwater had flat transoms. The toll lists refer to Trial as a 'boat' distinct from a 'barge' though it is not clear what exactly the distinction is. The assumption would be beam but I do agree that Trial looks to be wider than 7 foot. It would be worth seeking more references in the toll lists but the 2 listed above show Trial gauged with 20 and 28 tons

[Timleech]

The decoration is rather interesting, the cabin side very much in what we think of today as 'Narrow Boat' style, though with two picture panels and the 'home port' in script form. Is it possible to discern from the original negative what the pictures are?

The name at the stern, though, is much more in Leeds & Liverpool style with the distinctive scrolls at either end of the name.

Are you there, Mike/Pluto?

 

 

Edit - also there's a fairly heavy line which seems to be permanently spliced to an answer pin/tunnel hook on the top strake, maybe used as it's so much easier to grab from the bank than a line on the stern stud if the boat is wider than 7'. It looks to have been looped around the stern stud in the photo, and then used to tie the boat to the bank.

 

Tim

Edited August 25, 2011 by Timleech

[Pluto]

The decoration is rather interesting, the cabin side very much in what we think of today as 'Narrow Boat' style, though with two picture panels and the 'home port' in script form. Is it possible to discern from the original negative what the pictures are?

The name at the stern, though, is much more in Leeds & Liverpool style with the distinctive scrolls at either end of the name.

Are you there, Mike/Pluto?

 

 

Edit - also there's a fairly heavy line which seems to be permanently spliced to an answer pin/tunnel hook on the top strake, maybe used as it's so much easier to grab from the bank than a line on the stern stud if the boat is wider than 7'. It looks to have been looped around the stern stud in the photo, and then used to tie the boat to the bank.

 

Tim

It's easy to think of narrowboat painting as being fairly standard, but there are certainly styles and figures which are specific to areas and individual canals. The lettering here is similar to L&LC style; flamboyant and shaded the the right lower. The scrolls however have a different feel, being thinner and more twirly than those generally associated with the L&LC. The cabin-side pictures don't seem to conform to the Midlands style either. I suspect that much boat painting originated in the designs used on coastal vessels in the area, and scrolls and painted designs were both part of this tradition. Pictures seem to have developed more widely on canal boats though. I still have copies of Brightwork if anyone wants to buy a copy and read my, and Sam Yates', ideas about the origins of the L&LC style. Sam served his time as a boat builder at Whitebirk, near Blackburn, and ended up doing all the decorative painting there in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

 

On the boat, flat bottomed boats and barges were common around the Severn and West Country, with boat builders off the Severn being recruited by the Duke of Bridgewater to build boats for his new canal. It was from the boat building traditions of the Severn that the narrowboat design developed, when first built as mine boats at Worsley. As canal boats were built to suit the limitations of specific canals, I don't see anything unusual in a wider narrowboat. After all, any carrier would want to maximise the tonnage carried.

[Timleech]

It's easy to think of narrowboat painting as being fairly standard, but there are certainly styles and figures which are specific to areas and individual canals. The lettering here is similar to L&LC style; flamboyant and shaded the the right lower. The scrolls however have a different feel, being thinner and more twirly than those generally associated with the L&LC.

 

The scrolls either side of the name are to me very much reminiscent in style of those that were on the EDITH, hence my comment. I don't know whether I have any pics of those, but my memory is far from perfect.

 

Tim

[richardf]

I'm afraid that it is not possible to get any detail from the painting on the cabin side - only wish it was!

[ditchcrawler]

I'm afraid that it is not possible to get any detail from the painting on the cabin side - only wish it was!

Is the boat really wide or is that a trick of the camera. Looking at the top of the cabin, the roof ether side of the slide looks no wider to me than on a Narrowboat when comparing it to the width of the slide and also the chimney which almost fills the section on the left.

[Timleech]

Is the boat really wide or is that a trick of the camera. Looking at the top of the cabin, the roof ether side of the slide looks no wider to me than on a Narrowboat when comparing it to the width of the slide and also the chimney which almost fills the section on the left.

 

The cabin is or appears to be much more tapered, fore and aft, than a normal narrow horse boat/butty cabin.

 

Incidentally the hull at gunwale cap level has a lot more sheer than is usual for a Narrow Boat, also the sides don't look very straight, although that might in part be a visual effect caused by the sheer.

 

Tim

Edited August 25, 2011 by Timleech

[bottle]

From:

 

The Stroudwater and Thames Severn Canals. Subtitle: In Old Photographs. Collected by Edwin Cuss & Stanley Gardiner.

 

Published 1988 by Alan Sutton ISBN 0-86299-493-4

 

Page 38.

 

Has the same photo (cropped) stating:

 

1907. The barge Trial belonging to Smart's of Chalford, with a butty, moored at Dudbridge Wharf just west of Dudbridge lock which can be seen through the arch of the bridge.

 

From : The Stroudwater and Thames Severn Canals. Subtitle: From Old Photographs. By Edwin Cuss and Mike Mills. Published 1993 (Alan sutton) and 2010 (Amberly Publishing)

 

ISBN 978 1 84868 787 5

 

A photo of the same boat on page 31.

 

Stating: The Trial owned by James Smart of Chalford was contracted to carry a cargo of wool from London to Stonehouse.

[Laurence Hogg]

I have "worked" on this a bit to try and clarify detail, in my opinion the scenes are coastal views:

 

 

Heres the link to view larger:

http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/rr267/LAURENCEHOGG/?action=view&current=TRIALMODIFIED.jpg

Edited August 25, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[magpie patrick]

1907. The barge Trial belonging to Smart's of Chalford, with a butty, moored at Dudbridge Wharf just west of Dudbridge lock which can be seen through the arch of the bridge.

 

 

Dudbridge makes a lot more sense for the location, thank you

[bottle]

If it is Dudbridge, I believe it to be, the houses look right then sorry to say the bridge has been replaced by a modern one.

 

On the right is now the Peugeot dealership.

 

There is an old wharf crane (still there) behind where the photographer stood.

 

Edit: got me right and left mixed up.

Edited August 25, 2011 by bottle

[Pluto]

The scrolls either side of the name are to me very much reminiscent in style of those that were on the EDITH, hence my comment. I don't know whether I have any pics of those, but my memory is far from perfect.

 

Tim

They are certainly similar, but these seem to have a little more curly bits at the extremities. Those on Edith were probably painted by Harry Leyland, who served his time at Parbold, though he had probably worked at Stretford since the 1940s, so the intervening years may have produced some narrowboat influence on his style. The style of scroll painted by West Lancashire boatyards was more like those in the photo than elsewhere on the L&LC, but they also used what I call mirror scrolls, where the pattern is the same in the top half to that in the bottom half. I suspect there is much more to the scroll than is generally appreciated, but I don't really see myself as an expert in the arts, my training being restricted to liking the nice colours of swarf when an apprentice fitter/turner.

[Max Sinclair]

I wonder if the other boat was called Tribulation?

 

Seems to be a padlock on TRIAL, so maybe the lads were encouraged to hop aboard for the sake of scale in the photo.

Certainly looks wider than 7', though the one ahead seems narrow.

 

Nice photo. From that bridge today: Butterrow Hill.

Smoke coming out of the chimney. A lovely record of an interesting canal scene.What was moored in the foreground, so many questions.